Salvation by faith alone/only?

[francisdesales]

This was a very efficacious way of discourse Joe.

LOL! Efficacious... Well, I wish this stuff would have taken hold more quickly - and I am not sure it has yet in certain circles who are intent on claiming God is blood-thirsty and is bound to the Mosaic Law and only can forgive sins with blood...

Sometimes it is hard to get through the semantics on this forum. I feel hopeful and thankful by the thoughts that proceed from considering not only what you say here, but how the events ended up having it said this way. Certainly God will not be patronized and surely there is a point where men are trustworthy without fail. Goodnews. I would venture to say that you are arguing against the same concept of the Old Testament that Satan held as displayed by The High priests that had Jesus crucified.

Sometimes I felt that way, esp. when the same arguments were repeated without any Scriptures to back them up.

I hate to say this, but in my limited experience, this does not reflect some circles in the RCC nor orthodox nor protestant churches. Great work, you really made my heart soar and yet sore. Ahhh the bitter sweet of the Holy Spirit.

We are all at different stages in our walk. No doubt, I was a stumbling block for some in the past and others are a stumbling block for me... God allows such things to happen to grow to maturity in Christ (like learning humility).

Take care,

Joe

 

[francisdesales]

Yep. The key of course is that Jesus is God.
God's blood was not demanded as a requirement by God. There was never any requirement placed upon God as this would be an affront to God's sovereignty.

True. How can God be bound by the Mosaic Law, which demands blood for CULTIC sacrifices? Even in Scriptures, we read that God's point of demanding blood was what it represented. God desires not blood, but our love. Love is the offering of self. Which of course Christ did to the utmost...

God did not have to lay down his life for anyone, any thing, or any reason. However, he chose to out of love from the beginning of the world. Jesus gifted us His blood through His sacrifice that we imperfect beings might believe the Gospel, trust in God, and redeem this world through the power of His Spirit. Think communion where the blood is the spirit. Jesus did not have to come incarnate, and Jesus did not have to leave. Yet He did because He loves us.

Totally agree ;)

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

God had sex with a female god? You've lost me Jason.

I've already talked to you about Jonah. It was a national salvation from physical destruction. Or, it was a picture of salvation by grace through faith. I don't know if it wasn't both, but if it was national, it isn't talking about being saved spiritually. Get what I'm saying here?

As far as David goes, the Lord's actual crucifixion didn't take place in actuality until after David's time, but as you can see here, he foresaw it and his heart rejoiced. It was the Lord's work on the cross that made David's salvation possible...not any sacrifices he may or may not have performed.


No, God is not a Jew, but he chose them to be an example for all to see as to how He worked.

Jews didn't write the Bible, either, Jason. It's the inspired Word of God, so I'm not required to read it from a Jewish perspective. Of course Abraham knew God and the gospel was preached to Him. I don't know how God preached the Gospel to David and Abraham (and I'm sure every person of faith in the OT), but He did. They had to wait until the act was done before going to be with the Lord...I think you and I have talked of that already).

he didnt have to they already had the faith the revalation of god. that is all they needed and were required

really so god wrote the bible himself?

care to take a challenge i can show where paul quotes a verse and its not exactly what is said in the old testament.

so what language was the tanakh written in? english? god mets us where we are yet

so we dont see god in our own limited minds and that has to use things on the earth for us to relate

ie father
ie husband
ie suffering sufferent
ie kinsman redeemr

and heres

what language had the name of god first revealed to them? the hebrews.

elohim isnt really his name its like calling god , god(really that means the god of the congress of gods) and was borrowed from the ancient chaldeans. as abraham and also many of the hebrews in the captivity knew that term. so god said i am the chief of god(any time in hebrew where el is plural that is the case)

like this king of kings and lord of lords that has an acient connation.

wow.,work on your exegesis. you need to do some hermeutics. and joe is right. god didnt want blood it was symbolic.

i dont get it. i really dont. jesus spoke the jews in his days on the earth and taught them parables that jews themselves understand. parables that had symbols that are found from genesis to revalation

these are:

the fig tree
the tree of live
olive trees
wine
vineyard
husbandman
the candlelaver(seven sticks aka menora)
the very period of seven days has a symbol
numerology and the language of the jews letters has symbols to it that explain things

jesus claimed a name that the jews should have known what he was saying and they did and he was hated for that as they thought it was blashepmous

it was..

el shadaii and son of god., the former is when he said i am the great sheppard. that is what el shaddai can mean.

yeshua has meaning, doesnt it.

god saves or yah saves. or yahweh is salvation.

yeshua hamashiac. yah saves ,the called one or the annoited one.

the entire book of revalation has mostly jewish symbology to it. it makes no sense to understand the culture of it. its funny you say that i as planning to teach the kids in the royal rangers on isreal and you helped me see things from the hebrew thoughts that i have never seen before.

how can god be bound by his law when he said in jeremiah that he was going to change the convenant? meaning god changed his mind? hmm he lied? no he knew man wouldnt uphold it and used it to show us that we are that evil but still forgave those that would come to him and didnt do well i partially forgave them. in fact david by his psalms knew of the lord. each person in the bible when they wrote they wrote about some side of the LORD.

abraham didnt know god as the YHWH however moses did, and others god other names and visions. funny how god orchestread that.

 

[childeye]

he didnt have to they already had the faith the revalation of god. that is all they needed and were required

really so god wrote the bible himself?

care to take a challenge i can show where paul quotes a verse and its not exactly what is said in the old testament.

so what language was the tanakh written in? english? god mets us where we are yet

so we dont see god in our own limited minds and that has to use things on the earth for us to relate

ie father
ie husband
ie suffering sufferent
ie kinsman redeemr

and heres

what language had the name of god first revealed to them? the hebrews.

elohim isnt really his name its like calling god , god(really that means the god of the congress of gods) and was borrowed from the ancient chaldeans. as abraham and also many of the hebrews in the captivity knew that term. so god said i am the chief of god(any time in hebrew where el is plural that is the case)

like this king of kings and lord of lords that has an acient connation.

wow.,work on your exegesis. you need to do some hermeutics. and joe is right. god didnt want blood it was symbolic.

i dont get it. i really dont. jesus spoke the jews in his days on the earth and taught them parables that jews themselves understand. parables that had symbols that are found from genesis to revalation

these are:

the fig tree
the tree of live
olive trees
wine
vineyard
husbandman
the candlelaver(seven sticks aka menora)
the very period of seven days has a symbol
numerology and the language of the jews letters has symbols to it that explain things

jesus claimed a name that the jews should have known what he was saying and they did and he was hated for that as they thought it was blashepmous

it was..

el shadaii and son of god., the former is when he said i am the great sheppard. that is what el shaddai can mean.

yeshua has meaning, doesnt it.

god saves or yah saves. or yahweh is salvation.

yeshua hamashiac. yah saves ,the called one or the annoited one.

the entire book of revalation has mostly jewish symbology to it. it makes no sense to understand the culture of it. its funny you say that i as planning to teach the kids in the royal rangers on isreal and you helped me see things from the hebrew thoughts that i have never seen before.

how can god be bound by his law when he said in jeremiah that he was going to change the convenant? meaning god changed his mind? hmm he lied? no he knew man wouldnt uphold it and used it to show us that we are that evil but still forgave those that would come to him and didnt do well i partially forgave them. in fact david by his psalms knew of the lord. each person in the bible when they wrote they wrote about some side of the LORD.

abraham didnt know god as the YHWH however moses did, and others god other names and visions. funny how god orchestread that.

Interesting post Jasoncran. Very thought provoking. I love surprises and you always seem to have a few.

 

[jasoncran]

that takes faith to see that. alot of it. AND it was god that told me that. i dont try to memorise scriptures i just see the idea of it then it flows out.

i read the books of genesis and it was here that i saw christ for the first time in the ot.

Genesis 22


1And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
3And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
4Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
5And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
6And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
9And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
10And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
15And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
19So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.
20And it came to pass after these things, that it was told Abraham, saying, Behold, Milcah, she hath also born children unto thy brother Nahor;
21Huz his firstborn, and Buz his brother, and Kemuel the father of Aram,
22And Chesed, and Hazo, and Pildash, and Jidlaph, and Bethuel.
23And Bethuel begat Rebekah: these eight Milcah did bear to Nahor, Abraham's brother. 24And his concubine, whose name was Reumah, she bare also Tebah, and Gaham, and Thahash, and Maachah

god need a sacrifice to atone all of men to him. hmm no man could be the high priest so sent a lamb in the bushes to be slain.

romans 5 says this

for while ye were yet enemies of the lord christ died for you. he provided the sacrifices for us to be forgiven. all we have to do is accept that.

 

[childeye]

that takes faith to see that. alot of it. AND it was god that told me that. i dont try to memorise scriptures i just see the idea of it then it flows out.

i read the books of genesis and it was here that i saw christ for the first time in the ot.



god need a sacrifice to atone all of men to him. hmm no man could be the high priest so sent a lamb in the bushes to be slain.

romans 5 says this

for while ye were yet enemies of the lord christ died for you. he provided the sacrifices for us to be forgiven. all we have to do is accept that.

In truth, I have a hard time accepting that God should give His son for me. Not that I question His Love, but He should not have to prove His self. Nor should man have to prove himself, but perhaps I am just being naive. Still I am more persuaded that there is an enmity between man and God that works both ends against the middle and is our common enemy. That's why Jesus laid down his life for us and for God. I hope you read this.

 

[jasoncran]

In truth, I have a hard time accepting that God should give His son for me. not that I question His Love, but He should not have to prove His self. Nor should man have to prove himself, but perhaps I am just naive.

you should, we all are not worthy. that is the point.

 

[childeye]

you should, we all are not worthy. that is the point.

Jasoncran,I wished you could have read what I wrote after I added and then commented. Perhaps you have some insights coming from a Jewish perspective. I wrote this:

Still I am more persuaded that there is an enmity between man and God that works both ends against the middle and is our common enemy. That's why Jesus laid down his life for us and for God. I hope you read this.

 

[jasoncran]

satan? or the flesh.

hmm thats deep. ok lets see satan means opposer or accuser if i recall. he did that here.

1And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
6And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
7Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
8Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
9For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 10In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

i dont fully understand that last line as the fig tree doesnt seem to mean much aside from normal context. but we see that satan accues and that god cleansed and the lord rebuked him and the word BRANCH IS A NAME for christ.

 

[childeye]

=jasoncran;587642]satan? or the flesh.

There is the episode with Job which I take to be a type for the reason there is allowed evil.

In that story, God is proving to Satan that Job is upright for some deeper reason than the possessions God would favor him with and that Job wouldn't even curse God to save his flesh. Here Satan is saying to God that Job would curse God and on earth he is tormenting Job trying to get him to curse God. That's a common enemy.

We see in Genesis where man is tempted by being told things that were untrue about God, and we see in Revelations where Satan is seen in heaven accusing men day and night before the lord. Satan is hypocritically both temptor and accuser therefore, playing both ends against the middle. Christ is the perfect Image of both man and God that both ends can believe in and become one.

 

[francisdesales]

he didnt have to they already had the faith the revalation of god. that is all they needed and were required

really so god wrote the bible himself?

care to take a challenge i can show where paul quotes a verse and its not exactly what is said in the old testament.

so what language was the tanakh written in? english? god mets us where we are yet

so we dont see god in our own limited minds and that has to use things on the earth for us to relate

ie father
ie husband
ie suffering sufferent
ie kinsman redeemr

and heres

what language had the name of god first revealed to them? the hebrews.

elohim isnt really his name its like calling god , god(really that means the god of the congress of gods) and was borrowed from the ancient chaldeans. as abraham and also many of the hebrews in the captivity knew that term. so god said i am the chief of god(any time in hebrew where el is plural that is the case)

like this king of kings and lord of lords that has an acient connation.

wow.,work on your exegesis. you need to do some hermeutics. and joe is right. god didnt want blood it was symbolic.

i dont get it. i really dont. jesus spoke the jews in his days on the earth and taught them parables that jews themselves understand. parables that had symbols that are found from genesis to revalation

these are:

the fig tree
the tree of live
olive trees
wine
vineyard
husbandman
the candlelaver(seven sticks aka menora)
the very period of seven days has a symbol
numerology and the language of the jews letters has symbols to it that explain things

jesus claimed a name that the jews should have known what he was saying and they did and he was hated for that as they thought it was blashepmous

it was..

el shadaii and son of god., the former is when he said i am the great sheppard. that is what el shaddai can mean.

yeshua has meaning, doesnt it.

god saves or yah saves. or yahweh is salvation.

yeshua hamashiac. yah saves ,the called one or the annoited one.

the entire book of revalation has mostly jewish symbology to it. it makes no sense to understand the culture of it. its funny you say that i as planning to teach the kids in the royal rangers on isreal and you helped me see things from the hebrew thoughts that i have never seen before.

how can god be bound by his law when he said in jeremiah that he was going to change the convenant? meaning god changed his mind? hmm he lied? no he knew man wouldnt uphold it and used it to show us that we are that evil but still forgave those that would come to him and didnt do well i partially forgave them. in fact david by his psalms knew of the lord. each person in the bible when they wrote they wrote about some side of the LORD.

abraham didnt know god as the YHWH however moses did, and others god other names and visions. funny how god orchestread that.

I like what you are saying here on the original context/language and have taken it to heart. I had been reading a "Jewish New Testament", written by a doctor who is a Jewish Messianic. Can't remember his name, the book is at work. Anyway, there is a commentary separately, also. I have gathered a LOT of information by reading that commentary, since it is written from the point of view of the original men of Christianity. Judaism cannot be entirely separated from Christianity.

Anyway, it was very enlightening some of this guys interpretations, esp. on the Law and Rabbinical writings and how they correspond to writings of the NT. Perhaps it is time to revisit his commentary on Romans again.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

In truth, I have a hard time accepting that God should give His son for me. Not that I question His Love, but He should not have to prove His self. Nor should man have to prove himself, but perhaps I am just being naive. Still I am more persuaded that there is an enmity between man and God that works both ends against the middle and is our common enemy. That's why Jesus laid down his life for us and for God. I hope you read this.

Larry,

I don't think God is necessarily "proving" Himself, but rather, doing what is "fitting" and "natural" for a God Who IS love. His very nature is to give of Himself to the Beloved (as in the doctrine of the trinity explains), and when we consider the doctrine of Creation and that overflow of Love outside of the Trinity, one would nearly "expect" God to race to the rescue of His Beloved creation after the Fall - of course, something BETTER would be the result of such a salvation.

Oh happy fault, that brought to us such a Savior (paraphrase Aquinas...)

The perfect Lover, Who unconditionally loves us, even desiring that we be joined to Him and share in that same love, loving Him with that grace He provides to us. This is why I state that "Christ came to make us part of Himsef".

For isn't it the deepest wish, to have love returned to the Lover?

Regards

 

[childeye]

Larry,

I don't think God is necessarily "proving" Himself, but rather, doing what is "fitting" and "natural" for a God Who IS love. His very nature is to give of Himself to the Beloved (as in the doctrine of the trinity explains), and when we consider the doctrine of Creation and that overflow of Love outside of the Trinity, one would nearly "expect" God to race to the rescue of His Beloved creation after the Fall - of course, something BETTER would be the result of such a salvation.

Oh happy fault, that brought to us such a Savior (paraphrase Aquinas...)

The perfect Lover, Who unconditionally loves us, even desiring that we be joined to Him and share in that same love, loving Him with that grace He provides to us. This is why I state that "Christ came to make us part of Himsef".

For isn't it the deepest wish, to have love returned to the Lover?

Regards

Thanks Joe, yes I would expect God would cheer me up about that sweet sorrow but it is still too breathtaking for me to be removed from the way I see it as has been revealed to me. I need gaze upon it. I won't say more.

 

[jasoncran]

There is the episode with Job which I take to be a type for the reason there is allowed evil.

In that story, God is proving to Satan that Job is upright for some deeper reason than the possessions God would favor him with and that Job wouldn't even curse God to save his flesh. Here Satan is saying to God that Job would curse God and on earth he is tormenting Job trying to get him to curse God. That's a common enemy.

We see in Genesis where man is tempted by being told things that were untrue about God, and we see in Revelations where Satan is seen in heaven accusing men day and night before the lord. Satan is hypocritically both temptor and accuser therefore, playing both ends against the middle. Christ is the perfect Image of both man and God that both ends can believe in and become one.

the name david has the word daleth man looking up and also vah(t shape and is the cross) and daleth god looking down.

what is jesus called? the son of david.

 

[francisdesales]

Thanks Joe, yes I would expect God would cheer me up about that sweet sorrow but it is still too breathtaking for me to be removed from the way I see it as has been revealed to me. I need gaze upon it. I won't say more.

Fair enough.

God bless

 

[glorydaz]

Yep. The key of course is that Jesus is God.
God's blood was not demanded as a requirement by God. There was never any requirement placed upon God as this would be an affront to God's sovereignty. God did not have to lay down his life for anyone, any thing, or any reason. However, he chose to out of love from the beginning of the world. Jesus gifted us His blood through His sacrifice that we imperfect beings might believe the Gospel, trust in God, and redeem this world through the power of His Spirit. Think communion where the blood is the spirit. Jesus did not have to come incarnate, and Jesus did not have to leave. Yet He did because He loves us.

It wasn't a requirement placed upon God. It was a requirement that God, Himself, demanded.

The Mosaic Law was not "cultic" as francisdesales keeps saying. It was the schoolmaster God instituted to show man the way of salvation. God is the one who set up the way for forgiveness of sins. He performed the first sacrifice in the garden of Eden when He covered Adam and Eve with the skins of animals. He didn't just create skins, He killed the animals and clothed the sinners. Cain's offering was not accepted by God, but Abel's was...an animal was sacrificed. The Mosaic Law contained animal sacrifices, for by the shedding of blood is the remission of sins. It was a shadow of the SPOTLESS LAMB to come.

It's very clear...by the blood of bulls and goats there is no remission of sins. By Jesus's blood there was remission of sins. I'm not sure why people are so squeemish about blood. The life is in the blood. Jesus willingly laid down His life so that many could live. Did He do it out of love? Of course. Does that change the fact that God required the blood of the Perfect Lamb? No.

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

I'm perplexed why some will quibble with God about the plan He set up. There had to be a sacrifice for sin. God is Holy, and He's the One who demanded that sacrifice. Could God have just shown us mercy without the sacrifice? Of course He could.....BUT, HE DIDN'T. His Holiness demanded it. Whether that sits well with man or not.

 

[francisdesales]

It wasn't a requirement placed upon God. It was a requirement that God, Himself, demanded.

Only for those following the Mosaic Law... Non-Jews were not bound by it, nor was/is God. Thus, to state that God could only forgive if blood was offered is to state that God was bound to the Mosaic Law...

The Mosaic Law was not "cultic" as francisdesales keeps saying.

I don't think you know what "cult" means. I do not mean it in the pejorative, modern day sense. It refers to liturgy and how the faithful live their day to day lives.

It was the schoolmaster God instituted to show man the way of salvation.

The way to salvation is the spiritual, inner way. Thus, Paul states that "salvation by faith" was always God's directive. The external rules of the Law, shedding of blood, etc., were only meant to move the inner mind to God. Blood, in of itself, has little value to God. It is the thought that goes behind offering something of such value (life) that matters to God. God wants us to offer ourselves. Thus, we must "die" to self.

Thus, your mistake is to confuse the sacramental action with what it is intended to bring forth.

God is the one who set up the way for forgiveness of sins.

The "way" is God expects repentance. Not blood. Already detailed. I can post them again, if you want to ignore them again...

He performed the first sacrifice in the garden of Eden when He covered Adam and Eve with the skins of animals. He didn't just create skins, He killed the animals and clothed the sinners.

Where does the Bible state this explicitly?

You do realize that sheep don't need to die to provide clothes, right?

It appears that this is a secondary focus of the text, since there is no mention of sacrifice there. It could be debated whether that would even be a sacrifice, since Adam or Eve didn't offer the animal, God provided it (presuming God killed the animal).

Cain's offering was not accepted by God, but Abel's was...an animal was sacrificed.

Are you still having vampire withdraws from Halloween? NOWHERE does the Bible state that Cain's offering was not accepted because it was not blood!!!

This is just idiotic...

The Mosaic Law contained animal sacrifices

So what. It also contained grain sacrifices. Oil sacrifices. Anything of value - EXCEPT HUMAN LIFE... God strictly forbade human sacrifices.

Hmm, so much for your theory.

It's very clear...by the blood of bulls and goats there is no remission of sins. By Jesus's blood there was remission of sins.

Jesus blood has nothing to do with the Mosaic Law. The former phrase states that BLOOD ITSELF does not forgive sins. GOD HIMSELF does!!! Shedding blood does not forgive sins!!!! Is this sinking in???

The blood, in of itself, has no value to God. It is the relationship that offers that blood that makes it valuable to God.

People who have a relationship with God, rather than a legal "get out of hell free" card know this.

I'm not sure why people are so squeemish about blood.

It is not a matter of squeemish, it is a matter of your false gospel that can't figure out a fundamental aspect about God and how He acts towards humans...

The life is in the blood. Jesus willingly laid down His life so that many could live. Did He do it out of love? Of course.

Of course.

Does that change the fact that God required the blood of the Perfect Lamb? No.

Scriptures, please. That Jesus WOULD SACRIFICE Himself has little to do with a "perfect lamb requirement" FROM GOD HIMSELF before He could act!!!!

I'm perplexed why some will quibble with God about the plan He set up.

Because you are wrong and such little "quibbles" force one into a complete misunderstanding of what God did, what God wants to do, and Who God is...

You know, little quibbles...

There had to be a sacrifice for sin.

Can you please show me where God demands a sacrifice for sin before He forgives sins?

God is Holy, and He's the One who demanded that sacrifice. Could God have just shown us mercy without the sacrifice?

Of course. Who would be so daft to think that God HAD to have a sacrifice when Jesus spoke parable after parable that states that God DID NOT need satisfaction, perfection, sacrifices, etc., before He was ready to forgive...

Didn't Jesus make that clear over and over again?

Have you even READ the Gospels???

Regards

 

[childeye]

the name david has the word daleth man looking up and also vah(t shape and is the cross) and daleth god looking down.

what is jesus called? the son of david.

Awesome info Jasoncran. You never dissappoint. So there is the Word of God in man and God Himself in heaven. What does vah signify? Any thoughts?

 

[jasoncran]

Awesome info Jasoncran. You never dissappoint. So there is the Word of God in man and God Himself in heaven. What does vah signify? Any thoughts?

vah is the shape of the cross(t shaped) and that is the most likely shaped one that he hung on.

 

[jasoncran]

joe a famous pastor preached the fruits given by cain was by works of the flesh or typology of that.

and i will have to look into that when i get the commentaries from rambam and se what the jews thought.

food for thought. adam was sinless and failed the test(yes if one wants to look at the fruit of the forbidden tree that way it is) and jesus in order to undo that had to be sinless and face the temptations man had to face. but he also had to perform as a priest in heaven and also be that lamb without blemis that the feast of rosh hoshanna symbolised.

when christ won that battle he then was able to redeem man. being the high priest and he became the propiation for the whole earth. meaning that he restored the right of man to be the stewards of the earth and inherited the rights to the earth.

heres why

in adam man was given stewardship to the earth. when he sinned satan was allowed to control things. but when jesus came he took back the keys.

in a sense and i believe support for this is in revalation.

Revelation 5


1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.