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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Salvation by faith alone/only?
- Thread starter Frodo
- Start date
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savedbygrace57
Guest
You better study post 100, and hope God gives you an understanding..
Drew
Member
All right, let's talk about this text.
Romans 4:4-5 is often used to argue that Paul cannot have meant what he wrote in Romans 2 (and Romans 8 for that matter) about how eternal life is granted according to “how we live”. Here is the relevant material, and I include stuff from the end of Romans 3 for context – remember, it is not Paul who inserts “chapter breaks”:
27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith (is one. 31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we (establish the Law. 1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, …
A vital point is to note that context clearly shows that the “works” in 4:2 are the works of the Law of Moses. In 3:28, Paul talks about how men are not justified by the works of the Law. It should be clear that this is a reference to the Law of Moses, not to “good works” generally. But even if this were not clear from 3:28, 3:29 seals the deal: Verse 29 is clearly a statement of what would be the case if, in fact, people were justified by “works” – only Jews could be saved, since only Jews have the Law of Moses.
So there is really no doubt – Paul is making an argument that the works of the Law of Moses, not good works in general, do not justify. So why anybody thinks 4:2 is about “good works” is a mystery to me – Paul does not arbitrarily change topics without notice. Besides, material in the middle of chapter 4 supports my position as well – in the entire thread from chapter 3 right through to the middle of chapter 4, Paul is essentially arguing that salvation is not limited to Jews – those who do the works of the Law of Moses. And yes, I am aware that the Law of Moses was not around in Abraham’s time. I am prepared to deal with that objection if need be.
So now we come to the workman. I trust we all understand that this is a metaphor. As such, it cannot be taken literally in all its details – it is a comparison, like all metaphors. Paul has just finished arguing that Abraham, like any other Jew, cannot claim that God “owes” justification to the Jew, and only the Jew, in virtue of the cultural marker of the Law of Moses. The issue to this point is not “does someone who does good works have a claim on God”, it is “does the Jew – the one who is under the Law of Moses – have a claim on God”.
The workman expects to be paid because he has done something. Fine. What is the parallel to Abraham? The parallel is that Abraham might think he has claim on justification because of his obedience to the Law of Moses in its specific role of marking out the Jew as a member of God’s family to the exclusion of the Gentile, not because he has done “good works”. The fact that Paul uses a metaphor where the “basis for claim” is work does not mean that Paul is arguing against justification by works.
The bottom line: Romans 4:4-5 is a metaphor, so even though the metaphor deals with the matter of "working to get something", there are many other reasons, elaborated above, to conclude that Paul is not denying "salvation by good works" - something he clearly embraces in Romans 2 - he is instead denying that the Jew has a claim on God in respect to salvation and is using an analogy to a workman to make the point.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
Here is all the answers I have for you :
You better study post 100, and hope God gives you an understanding..
Grubal Muruch
Member
I guess that post (100) says it all!!! He's got nothing more to add...
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savedbygrace57
Guest
grub
It sure does, deal with it..
It sure does, deal with it..
Paul does not embrace salvation by good works, for all men sin and come short of the glory of God. Sin is the problem and no amount of good works will cover sin. No matter how many good deeds a person does, those deeds will not reconcile man to God. It's only by looking to Jesus Christ and trusting in Him, being clothed with His righteousness, that man will gain eternal life. There is only one way...not two ways.
He won't because he can't. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
Grubal Muruch
Member
Nah! I think I'll just pass on it...
Grubal Muruch
Member
I didn't read that in "POST 100."
Drew
Member
The fact that Paul asserts that all men have sinned does not, of course, mean that we cannot be transformed by God and then, through the Spirit, perform good works that ultimately save. Paul is very clear here in Romans 2 - final salvation is granted according to good works:
6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Are you not going to engage the content of my argument about Romans 4:4-5. How is the argument flawed? Is it not clear that the "workman" snippet is a metaphor? Are all the elements to be taken literally? Not likely - it would cease to be a metaphor.
Grubal Muruch
Member
Works "never" save anyone!!! We get saved and the indwelling Spirit influences us to bring forth fruit/good works...
Drew
Member
I am afraid that Paul is quite clear - final salvation is indeed based on good works. Here is the text again:
6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Question: In this text, what is the "thing that is given"?
My answer is "eternal life". What is your answer, please?
Question: In this text, what is the basis for getting the thing that is given?
My answer is "what they have done" or "persistence in doing good".
What your answer, please?
When we read what Paul actually writes - and not what our traditions tell us - we see that, indeed, final salvation is based on how we actually lived our lives.
Ah, you say "transformed by God." That I can agree with.
It has been ordained that we will show forth good works after we have already been saved by our faith in Christ.
Ephesians 2:10 said:
I'm sorry, Drew, but I can't really see how Romans 4:4-5 is a metaphor. Maybe I'm just being dense and you can explain again why you don't think it's literal. It makes perfect sense to me as it stands.
God sees into our hearts and is able to discern our motives. Repaying each person for what they have done implies, for believers, the rewards handed out at the Judgment seat of Christ. Unbelievers will be paid the wages of sin which is death, irregardless of their good deeds - because of their unbelief. They refused to LOOK at Christ so there is no remedy for the poison of sin.
Drew
Member
This is not what Paul actually writes. I will ask you the same questions I asked another poster. Here is the text again:
6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Question: In this text, what is the "thing that is given"?
My answer is "eternal life". What is your answer, please?
Question: In this text, what is the basis for getting the thing that is given?
My answer is "what they have done" or "persistence in doing good".
What your answer, please?
When we read what Paul actually writes - and not what our traditions tell us - we see that, indeed, final salvation is based on how we actually lived our lives.
Grubal Muruch
Member
Grubal Muruch
Member
Drew said-----The fact that Paul asserts that all men have sinned does not, of course, mean that we cannot be transformed by God and then, through the Spirit, perform good works that ultimately save
Grubal says-----Christ did not die for our sins, then turn around and expect us to "earn" our Salvation through "works." His sacrifice was sufficient!!! Good works follow Salvation, and are NOT used to "earn" Salvation, but are a sign that we have the Holy Spirit living within influencing our live's...