Bible Study Salvation by Faith: The substance of our hope.

[GodsGrace]

You worded that question very well.

I'm forced to answer: Yes

The word of God can be the rhema [spoken] and the logos [written].

Jesus is the Logos, the message of the old testament scriptures, that became flesh. [See Also, the Angel of the Lord]

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:10-14

The message of the old testament was Jesus.

The message [word] of the old testament, became the living breathing reality that the old testament scripture's foreshadowed.

Never the less, faith comes by hearing the rhema word of God. Romans 10:17

JLB

Good morning
The Rhema Word of God. You say that faith comes by the rhema word.
and in post no. 10 you originally had stated this:
Faith comes by hearing the "rhema" [voice of God] word, not reading the bible [word].

This is important to me because I've always believed that faith can come in different ways.
Are you saying it can come ONLY from the rhema word?

What if someone had never heard about God and you gave them the N.T. and they
read through it all. Could faith not come to them? Could they not determine, just by reading, that Jesus
is necessary for the salvation of their soul? Would they not grasp the message that they are sinners in need
of salvation?
Romans 15:4

I have often thought of this and I've always thought the answers would be Yes.
Jesus said that if you have the faith of a mustard seed it is enough.
Luke 17:6
(for faith to grow and mature, it will require more than just reading about it)

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Where does grace fit in? Is it a gift?

Salvation is the end result of faith.

No faith. No salvation.

What we are given is faith. We don't earn faith, faith is given by God when He speaks to us, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by God speaking to us.

The object, being last thing mentioned in the sentence construct, described as a gift, is faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

So let's look at it this way, what comes first faith or being saved?


You will be saved, as long as you continue in the faith, and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

So as long as we continue to have faith, we will continue to be saved...by faith, until we receive the reality of the thing we are hoping for...

The salvation of our soul...receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith,being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

JLB

Grace is a gift.
Faith is a gift.
Salvation is a gift.

In a sense, they are all gifts that God gives to us. Even grace. If I'm nice to someone, is that not a gift to them?
Okay.

But, yes, only one of these is a gift for our purposes here.
I taught kids about God.
I used to fill up a pretty box with cookies and wrap it like a gift.

Then I'd put it in the middle of the table and explain how God is offering us all a gift.
But we must TAKE the gift, OPEN it, pull out the cookie and RECEIVE them, eat them and make them
a part of our life or the gift is of no value.

I used to teach (and was taught) that salvation is the gift.
Was this wrong?

Of course without faith there can be no salvation.
By the same token, if you are saved then you must have received faith.

I'm confused.

You post:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9
Couldn't it have said. For by grace, through faith, you have been saved and that not of yourselves...
THEN salvation would have been the last thing mentioned, and would the meaning have been changed?

So we're saved BY FAITH, but isn't salvation the gift?
From the beginning God planned our salvation - isn't how we get it secondary?
Genesis 3:15

Wondering

 

[JLB]

Couldn't it have said. For by grace, through faith, you have been saved and that not of yourselves...
THEN salvation would have been the last thing mentioned, and would the meaning have been changed?

So we're saved BY FAITH, but isn't salvation the gift?
From the beginning God planned our salvation - isn't how we get it secondary?
Genesis 3:15

We know eternal life in Christ Jesus is the gift of God.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

However it comes as the end result of having become a slave unto righteousness.

The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.

If we look at the scriptures as to how we come to be in Christ Jesus, we will always find that faith is involved.

Then when we examine grace, we will discover that grace is the Holy Spirit; The Spirit of Grace.

Finally when we discover the principle of faith and what faith is, we see how precious and important it is in relation to obtaining the things that God longs to give us. Healing, deliverance, right standing with God, victory, blessing, health, prosperity... the hope of salvation.

8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10

...and as a helmet the hope of salvation...For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

and again


24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Romans 8:24-25 KJV


perseverance - Strong's G5281 - hypomonē

1. 
   
   
   • steadfastness, constancy, endurance
     1. in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings
        
        
     2. patiently, and steadfastly
   • a patient, steadfast waiting for
   • a patient enduring, sustaining, perseverance

As we face the future of the things coming upon this nation and earth, I believe it is important to reflect on these things, and by God's grace and wisdom, we will strengthen ourselves in our faith and perseverance to remain steadfast... to not be swerved from our deliberate purpose and loyalty to our King and Lord in the face of persecution, trial or suffering.

Peter says our faith is more precious than gold, and is the very thing through which God's power keeps us.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:3-9

...who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time...receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.


Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 1 Peter 1:13



JLB

 

[JLB]

What if someone had never heard about God and you gave them the N.T. and they
read through it all. Could faith not come to them? Could they not determine, just by reading, that Jesus
is necessary for the salvation of their soul? Would they not grasp the message that they are sinners in need
of salvation?
Romans 15:4

Personally I say the answer is yes, as God speaks to me this way.

Sometimes when reading the bible, a passage will "jump out" at me, and I will see something that God desires for me to understand, or have or do.

This is my manna, my rhema word from God that He is teaching me at that time. This is just one of the many ways the Lord speaks to me.

And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Luke 24:45


Although the context of this verse is not about salvation from reading the bible, it does teach us a principle about these things.



JLB

 

[JLB]

This is important to me because I've always believed that faith can come in different ways.
Are you saying it can come ONLY from the rhema word?

I'm saying what the bible says.

Faith comes by hearing the word "Rhema" of God.

Man shall not live by bread alone, but on every word "Rhema" that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Noa and Abraham didn't have bibles, but had a relationship with the Lord, whereby they heard and obeyed His Voice.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm saying what the bible says.

Faith comes by hearing the word "Rhema" of God.

Man shall not live by bread alone, but on every word "Rhema" that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Noa and Abraham didn't have bibles, but had a relationship with the Lord, whereby they heard and obeyed His Voice.


JLB

Your last sentence brings some things to mind.
Noah and Abraham didn't have the bible.
Many don't. Not where I live.
They know about God and our Lord because their church
taught them. They heard, and they believed.
Faith comes by hearing... Romans 10:17

Jesus told the Apostles what they were to do that was important.
Preach the gospel
Make disciples
Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit
Teach them to observe all that I have commanded you.
Mathew 28:19-20
Mark 16:15

We try so many different ways to get people to go to church, especially young people.
What we should be doing is just preaching the word of God and teaching what Jesus has
commanded.

Wondering

 

[iLOVE]

Faith works by love. Grace works by faith. No love, no faith. No faith, no Grace. No Grace, no salvation.

 

[JLB]

Faith works by love. Grace works by faith. No love, no faith. No faith, no Grace. No Grace, no salvation.

 

[for_his_glory]

Salvation means to be made whole again or spiritually renewed in mind, body and soul as we are saved according to Matthew 24:13 as those who endure until the end. The end of what, the end of our physical life or those who are still alive at Christ coming that both have endured all trials and tribulations that Satan brings against them. It is those who stand in faith that is Christ Jesus that have put the cross before them and the world behind them.

 

[JLB]

Salvation means to be made whole again or spiritually renewed in mind, body and soul as we are saved according to Matthew 24:13 as those who endure until the end. The end of what, the end of our physical life or those who are still alive at Christ coming that both have endured all trials and tribulations that Satan brings against them. It is those who stand in faith that is Christ Jesus that have put the cross before them and the world behind them.

Enduring to the end of your life while being persecuted, thus remaining faithful to Christ to the end by not turning away or departing from Him.


10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Revelation 2:10


This is the context that Jesus taught about in His example of the Sower and the seed.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

The context is about believing or unbelief. About remaining faithful and enduring and continuing if the faith during persecution and tribulation.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21


This point is made to the Hebrew Christians as they were persecuted under the threat of death to renounce Christ and turn back to Judaism.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


The same Greek word is used here in Hebrews 3:12 [departing] as Jesus used in Luke 8:13 [fall away].

The writer of Hebrews brings his point home is chapter 6 as he warns those who depart from the living God and turn back to Judaism, no longer have any sacrifice for sin.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8

He likens those who have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, with the rain that falls upon the earth whereby it produces thorns and briers... in which in the end is to be burned.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Faith comes by hearing the "rhema" [voice of God] word, not reading the bible [word].

Where can I find those exact words in my copy of the inerrant, infallible, inspired sola scriptura?

 

[Malachi]

Where can I find those exact words in my copy of the inerrant, infallible, inspired sola scriptura?

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ.
King James Bible
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Please note that the modern Bible versions (as well as the Douay-Rheims) are incorrect in saying "word of Christ", based upon a corruption of the Greek text.

Based on this text alone it is clear that in Ephesians 2:8,9, salvation is the gift, not faith. That corresponds with Romans 6:23 and other passages.

 

[Malachi]

No love, no faith. No faith, no Grace. No Grace, no salvation.

I'm sorry but you are distorting the Gospel by misapplying Scripture. Sinners do NOT start out by loving God. Indeed no one can love God unless they are first saved, and have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So the correct order is: No Gospel, No Faith. No Faith, No Grace. No Grace, No Salvation. No Salvation, No love for God or Christ. Please study Romans 10 carefully.

 

[for_his_glory]

Gods grace is the gift, Ephesians 2:8, even though we do not deserve it. It's that gift that allows salvation or in other words that allows us to be saved from damnation as it is not our faith, but faith that is Christ Jesus in whom we believe in and that all can be saved as long as they keep themselves in Christ no matter what should come against them. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 1:12-14.

 

[Jim Parker]

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ.
King James Bible
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You didn't answer my question.

I didn't ask if "ῥήμα" meant "word." Of course it means "word." But it doesn't mean what the ear-ticklers on pop Christian TV say "rhema-word" means.

I asked where the Bible says that it means "[voice of God] word, not reading the bible [word]."

The Koine Greek words, according to Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament p.652, refer to "the divine instructions of the preachers of the gospel" not, as you have rendered it, "[voice of God] word, not reading the bible [word]."

So where did that "[voice of God] word, not reading the bible [word]" stuff come from?

Please note that the modern Bible versions are incorrect in saying "word of Christ" based upon a corruption of the Greek text.

Please note that's pure bunk.
How do you know that the older manuscripts are corrupt? They predate by up to 1000 years the manuscript used by the Roman Catholic scholar Erasmus to create the Textus Receptus on which the KJV is based.
It is noteworthy that the Latin Vulgate (late 4th century to early 5th) uses "Christi" the direct translation of the Greek "Χριστοῦ" in the manuscripts available to Jerome. The Greek texts which Erasmus had available dated from the 12th century and had variations between them.(ie: were "corrupted") That indicates that (1) Jerome had access to better manuscripts which had NOT been "corrupted" than did Erasmus and (2) that "Christ" is more likely to be the original word used than is "God."

What evidence do you have that they are a "corruption of the Greek text"?
Are you an authority on ancient manuscripts?
Do you know better than Thayer?
How do you know that modern translations based on older and better sources are incorrect?
Since you are not a Greek Scholar, someone must have sold you that nonsense.

Based on this text alone it is clear that in Ephesians 2:8,9, salvation is the gift, not faith.

Of course salvation is a gift.
And 1 Cor 12:9 says faith is a gift. It is more likely than not that Paul would say the same thing in Eph 2:8 rather than contradict himself.

That corresponds with Romans 6:23 and other passages.

Then what Paul has written is that both eternal life (Ro 6:23) AND faith (1 Cor 12:9) are gifts from God.

 

[Malachi]

Gods grace is the gift, Ephesians 2:8, even though we do not deserve it.

Not to nit-pick, but God's grace OFFERS the gift, and makes the gift a reality. The gift itself is eternal life.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23).

 

[Malachi]

Please note that's pure bunk.
How do you know that the older manuscripts are corrupt?

Long story for another thread -- indeed another book.

 

[Malachi]

I asked where the Bible says that it means "[voice of God] word, not reading the bible [word]."

The Word of God is in fact the voice of God. Every time the Bible is read or preached, that is the voice of God in the words of God.
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: (Heb 3:7,8).
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; (Rev 2:11).

 

[Malachi]

Then what Paul has written is that both eternal life (Ro 6:23) AND faith (1 Cor 12:9) are gifts from God.

We need to distinguish between the spiritual gift of faith (1 Cor 12:9) and saving faith (Rom 10:17). Saving faith is a response to the Gospel (Romans 10) and is for all sinners who hear the Gospel. The spiritual gift of faith may not be for all, just as tongues are not for all.

 

[JLB]

I asked where the Bible says that it means "[voice of God] word, not reading the bible [word]."

The Koine Greek words, according to Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament p.652, refer to "the divine instructions of the preachers of the gospel" not, as you have rendered it, "[voice of God] word, not reading the bible [word]."

So where did that "[voice of God] word, not reading the bible [word]" stuff come from?

It came from me.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:7-8


Since there were no bibles, or preachers of the Gospel at the time Noah moved with Godly fear or Abraham obeyed the Voice of God to go out... it can be seen that "rhema" has a broader meaning.

Also the "rhema word" is associated with those who preach the gospel and are "sent" by God.

Those who have been approved by Him, and who He sends and empowers with His authority and message of His Kingdom.

Primarily it was the Apostles whom Christ "sent", in which that is what Apostle means "sent one" or "one sent with orders".

John the Baptist, being a prophet was sent by God to prepare the way for the Lord, in which he spoke the words of God, the message of the gospel.


14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?... Romans 10:14-15

Those who are sent by God to represent Him and His kingdom with the message that He approves, and not so much what we hear today preached from the pulpits.

...Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Matthew 4:4

Those who are led by the Spirit, live by hearing His Voice, and live from faith to faith, as it is written... the just shall live by faith.

That's why they are called the sons of God.



JLB