Salvation vs. Rewards of our Race

[Jethro Bodine]

First of all I know that you attach works of "love" to your definition of faith, and really believe that one must have works.

I showed you the passage that says the faith that justifies is the faith that works through love. Now what you have to do is show the passage, or passages, that say the faith that justifies does NOT work through love.

...Acts 16:31 teaches and proves that at the moment of our freewill choice to believe we are saved.

Who is arguing this? Nobody disagrees that when you have faith you are saved. That's how you get salvation--you have faith that Christ's blood washes away your unrighteousness and it gets replaced with Christ's righteousness--the righteousness that qualifies you for the kingdom.

And this brings us back to the OP. For one who does not realize that they are eternally saved By Christ.

Who is arguing the point that when you have faith you are eternally saved by Christ? As long as you have faith you have a salvation that will last forever. What you disagree with is that you can stop having faith and you still have a salvation that will last forever that can only be secured by faith. You misunderstand what 'eternal' means in regard to being saved. It doesn't mean you can stop believing and you are still saved. It means the salvation you secure through the condition of trusting in the blood will last forever.

Their "good" works are fruitless because their motivation is to do the work that Christ already finished......their salvation.

No, you're not listening. You do good works because by virtue of what faith is, that is what justifying faith does. The faith that can't justify is the faith that can't, and won't produce works. But so many in the Protestant church are sure dead faith is the faith that justifies, too.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...I go to church, I give and help where help is needed, I love people and have faith in those works of love to save me. My faith justified me.

The argument is not being made that faith in your works of love justifies you. No, it's been made abundantly clear that the faith that justifies, all by itself, is the faith that works love, not does nothing. That is the argument.

Read it. Paul said the faith that justifies (which we know from Romans does all by itself 'apart from works') is the faith that works through love:

"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

Do you want to somehow argue that the faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that does NOT work through love, in complete contradiction to what Paul plainly said in this verse?

 

[JohnD]

The beauty of doing what all the ordinances and commands point to (namely, to believe in Jesus Christ), you fulfill ALL of them even if you do not actually DO any of them. It is credited to your account the same way it was with Abraham for his faith.

 

[JohnD]

The beauty of doing what all the ordinances and commands point to (namely, to believe in Jesus Christ), you fulfill ALL of them even if you do not actually DO any of them. It is credited to your account the same way it was with Abraham for his faith.

This is key to understanding much about what the Apostle Paul elaborated on in most of Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians.

 

[gr8grace3]

I showed you the passage that says the faith that justifies is the faith that works through love. Now what you have to do is show the passage, or passages, that say the faith that justifies does NOT work through love.

You have not shown me that verse.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You have not shown me that verse.

Lol.

 

[gr8grace3]

Lol.

So you can't?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So you can't?

You have got to be kidding. You're just playing with me, right?
You're scaring me now, gr8grace3.

 

[FreeGrace]

No, actually the argument is whether or not we have to believe to keep our salvation. Which, of course, we do.

We do?? Really? Paul described eternal life as a gift (charisma) of God in Rom 6:23. Then, in Rom 11:29 he said that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable. How do you get around that?

He used the word "charisma" 4 times before 11:29: 1:1, 5:15,16 and 6:23. So when one comes to 11:29, what else can be concluded except that eternal life is one of the gifts that are irrevocable?

While there will obviously be rewards attached to living faithfully in this life, works are necessary in salvation because the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that changes a person into someone who does righteous things.

Faith does not do the justifying. God does the justifying. Rom 5:1, And He justifies only those who have believed. I think your premise is mistaken.

Acts 13:39 Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.
Rom 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference.
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:28, 30
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Gal 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

It's deceitful for a person to think that the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works can remain alone. That's like trying to say you can go swimming and not get wet.

Though you are denying that our salvation is based on works, your claim here still makes that point.

There are no verses that even hint that salvation requires works. Salvation requires faith. It is believers who are required to do works, because that's what believers were created to do. Eph 2:10

 

[FreeGrace]

Please explain what these rewards are that I should be working for them.
How does my need to earn rewards play into my relationship with Christ?
Precisely, with Scripture please.
I ask this because I don't seem to agree with you.
Are these rewards making us greater than others in heaven?
Are you saying that there are levels in heaven?
Could it be that we are misunderstanding what these rewards are and the purpose for earning them?

4afaithfulone gave a number of verses that specifically identify rewards in post #8, and there are more. Some of the parables indicate ruling a number of cities, based on faithfulness. And not every verse on reward specifies the exact reward. Consider the various "crowns". Each one is a separate reward, earned for faithfulness.

And, yes, rewards will elevate some above others in heaven. The best proof of this is found in 2 Tim 2:12. If we endure (remain faithful to the end) we will "reign with Christ". Pretty clear. However, if we deny Him (do not remain faithful to the end), He will deny us. What? The privilege of reigning with Him. I know the argument; this verse is about being denied heaven, but the subject in 12a is about reigning with Christ. There are no verses that teach that every believer will reign with Christ. We have to endure for that privilege. If we don't endure, we won't reign with Him.

Rom 8:17b teaches the same principle: ... and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

IOW, we ahve to suffer with (for) Him in order to "be glorified with Him". Christ will definitely be glorified when He rules His Millennial kingdom, right? And so will those believers who have endured, or suffered with Him.

Did your ego play a role in getting saved?
I would think not.

Of course not, but what does this have to do with rewards? The Bible mentions rewards many times.

But what you're saying sounds as if your ego will be a driving factor to gain more rewards.

Bruce Wilkinson, a famous author and speaker, once spoke on eternal rewards. Afterwards, a woman came up to him and said, "I'm not interested in any rewards. I just want to be close to Jesus." His response: if you really want that, you'll have to "reign with Him", which is a reward. Those sitting on thrones will be the closest to Him. ;)

Moral of the story: if you want to be close to Jesus in heaven, you'll have to earn it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Thank you faithful and thank you grace.
A lot of good answers by both of you.

However, I would like more.
Consider I am a person who has no knowledge of the Bible and I am unchurched.
This is how I interpret what you both said in my own words.

There are a lot of different rewards I can earn here on Earth that I will be given in heaven.
If I fail in any category, I will not receive those rewards.
Once in heaven, we count my rewards to determine what level I am on.
Then, some people will be higher than me and have more in heaven than me and some will be lower than me.
Some will be my bosses, some my underlings.
Some will have a closer relationship with God, some less.

It all depends on how hard I work at my relationship with God that will determine how much he chooses to give me when I get there.

Please realize that there are many Christians who will see this as the answers they need to have.
Is what I'm saying exactly as you meant to convey it?

Yes. However, to the unchurched and ignorant; the discussion of rewards is irrelevant. They won't even get to heaven. Their only discussion is about whether they will spend eternity in heaven or the lake of fire.

 

[FreeGrace]

The real matter regarding OSAS is are you actually saved in the first place?

What do you do with the fact that Paul described eternal life as a gift (charisma) of God in Rom 6:23, and wrote in Rom 11:29 that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable? Same word for eternal life and what is irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Every OSAS person who says the believer can not lose his salvation by not obeying God because salvation is by grace, not works, is saying grace is a license to sin.

What grace really means is that we owe a price that we cannot pay, and Jesus paid the price that He didn't owe.

If one wants to twist that into some kind of license to sin is their problem. btw, since we are all sinners, we ALREADY have that license. Just check your wallet (or purse, for the ladies ).

No one "needs a license to sin". And grace cannot give that license. The ability is already there.

I think that erroneous idea is the real deal behind those who reject OSAS. They hate seeing anyone "get away" with anything. But no one does. Why? All are accountable to God. 2 Cor 5:10.

 

[FreeGrace]

gr8grace3 said this:
"You can go on to believe that a bowl of ice cream is your actual savior and Christ is still going to save you"

Even if it's Rocky Road ice cream?

Oh no!! It must be Chocolate mint with cherries!! Nothing else will do!!

 

[WIP]

There are no verses that even hint that salvation requires works. Salvation requires faith. It is believers who are required to do works, because that's what believers were created to do.

Can you reconcile this with James 2:14-17?

 

[FreeGrace]

Can you reconcile this with James 2:14-17?

Yes, sir. I posted this in another thread:
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-not-by-faith-alone.57742/page-3#post-1045407

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We do?? Really? Paul described eternal life as a gift (charisma) of God in Rom 6:23. Then, in Rom 11:29 he said that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable. How do you get around that?

Jesus used the parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB to show how we too will lose the gracious, unmerited gift of forgiveness if we show contempt for that gift by not acting in accordance with it. And this hardly contradicts what Paul is saying in Romans 11 because the context there is the gifts and calling given to (unsaved) Israel. One day a future generation of Israelites will indeed walk in God's gifts and calling, thus showing Israel's gifts and calling to have not been revoked.

I'm posting this for the benefit of others so they can refute the argument that works only have bearing on rewards, not on salvation itself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Though you are denying that our salvation is based on works, your claim here still makes that point.

No, justification is by faith, all by itself, apart from works (Romans 4:5,6 NASB). But that hardly means being justified does not have expected and obligatory works attached to it. Just because the works don't do the justifying doesn't mean works don't have to be included in a salvation experience.

There are no verses that even hint that salvation requires works.

"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

Paul says the faith that justifies is the faith that works through love. But so many will argue with Paul and insist that faith NOT working through love means something toward justification, in direct contradiction to him. If your 'faith' does not work through love then you have a faith that can not justify.

Just posting so others can refute the argument that the faith that justifies is the faith that does nothing.

 

[gr8grace3]

No, justification is by faith, all by itself, apart from works (Romans 4:5,6 NASB). But that hardly means being justified does not have expected and obligatory works attached to it. Just because the works don't do the justifying doesn't mean works don't have to be included in a salvation experience.


"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

Paul says the faith that justifies is the faith that works through love. But so many will argue with Paul and insist that faith NOT working through love means something toward justification, in direct contradiction to him.

If your 'faith' does not work through love then you have a faith that can not justify.

Exactly where is this verse that Paul says, "The only faith that justifies is the faith that works through love?" This verse is speaking to ones who are already Justified. Your scaring me Jethro!

Or do you think that these Galatians had lost their salvation already?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

.

Exactly where is this verse that Paul says, "The only faith that justifies is the faith that works through love?"

Or do you think that these Galatians had lost their salvation already?

You're the one scaring me. I've posted the passage over and over. Either you really can't see it, or you're pretending to not see it as your way of saying you don't agree with it.

"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

According to your doctrine the 'faith' that justifies does NOT work through love, or does not have to work through love. But we see plainly in the verse which faith it is that justifies--the one that works through love, not a cold dead, works-less faith. Paul is echoing what James said in his letter about the faith that saves and the faith that can't save.

This verse is speaking to ones who are already Justified.

If your doctrine was true there would be no reason for Paul to explain to them the faith that justifies.


Faith working through love shows us how it is an ongoing faith that justifies, not a one time in history faith that has ceased.

The faith that justifies is ongoing, and ongoing in works of love. But there are so many that insist a one time believing that may or may not stop is what justified you and there's nothing you can do about it. An argument easily defeated on two fronts--one, a faith that ends is hardly a faith that is working through love (the faith Paul says justifies), and two, even if your faith has not stopped it still has to meet the criteria of working through love to be considered the faith that justifies. But your doctrine says neither of these points has to be true in order for a person to be justified.

I'm posting to help others refute the 'works only matter in regard to rewards' argument, which as we can see is really the OSAS argument from a different angle.