Salvation vs. Rewards of our Race

[gr8grace3]

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You're the one scaring me. I've posted the passage over and over. Either you really can't see it, or you're pretending to not see it as your way of saying you don't agree with it.

"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

According to your doctrine the 'faith' that justifies does NOT work through love, or does not have to work through love. But we see plainly in the verse which faith it is that justifies--the one that works through love, not a cold dead, works-less faith. Paul is echoing what James said in his letter about the faith that saves and the faith that can't save.



If your doctrine was true there would be no reason for Paul to explain to them the faith that justifies.


Faith working through love shows us how it is an ongoing faith that justifies, not a one time in history faith that has ceased.

The faith that justifies is ongoing, and ongoing in works of love. But there are so many that insist a one time believing that may or may not stop is what justified you and there's nothing you can do about it. An argument easily defeated on two fronts--one, a faith that ends is hardly a faith that is working through love (the faith Paul says justifies), and two, even if your faith has not stopped it still has to meet the criteria of working through love to be considered the faith that justifies. But your doctrine says neither of these points has to be true in order for a person to be justified.

I'm posting to help others refute the 'works only matter in regard to rewards' argument, which as we can see is really the OSAS argument from a different angle.

Jethro, these Galatians are ALREADY IN CHRIST JESUS. And Just where is the word JUSTIFIED in this verse?????

The Galatians were not saved at this point?

 

[chessman]

.
"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

..., a faith that ends is hardly a faith that is working through love (the faith Paul says justifies),
...
The faith that justifies is ongoing, and ongoing in works of love

Are you 100% sure that the faith Paul is speaking of here is ongoing and never ending love? I'll just assume yes, since that's what you said. Good on you. Me too!


But let's think that through to it's logical conclusion then and welcome to OSAS. Where does this ongoing and never ending faith come from??? Hmm, I know, let's see what Paul says about where that faith comes from:

Galatians 5:22 (LEB) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ...​

I'm sure that since you believe Gal 5:6 you also believe 5:5 and 5:22, right? The faith Paul is speaking of in Gal 5 is produced by (the fruit of) The Holy Spirit per v 22 and 5. No wonder it's ongoing and never ending. Good on you to recognize that faith is never ending, working through love, through The Holy Spirit's love for a believer in Christ.

Galatians 5:5 (LEB) For through the Spirit by faith ... faith working through love. Gal 5:6​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, these Galatians are ALREADY IN CHRIST JESUS.

This is not in contention. We know this right from the first chapter:

"6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel" (Galatians 1:6 NASB)

So, we know they had already believed. We all agree that anyone who has faith in Christ for a declaration of righteousness is saved when they believe. But the problem is OSASer's think it's an issue that has to be brought up because many OSASer's instantly project their predetermined doctrine on the fact that they are saved to prove that since they are saved they are saved forever, 'see?'.

They say just the fact that they are saved already proves they are saved forever. That's because they have the lenses of their predetermined doctrine firmly fastened over their eyes and can't see they are guilty of trying to prove OSAS using circular reasoning instead of letting the scriptures speak for themselves.

They often commit this big sin of the OSAS defense. They use what is trying to be determined to come up the answer . I see this over and over and over again in these kinds of discussions. OSAS'ers have the lenses of 'once you're saved you are always saved' securely fastened over their eyes so that they can't see what the scriptures so plainly say about it. They show that they do when they use OSAS as the defense for OSAS (that circular reasoning thing again). Folks, this is very common. Be prepared to point it out.

So, the bottom line is, you can't say, 'see, they're already saved' to somehow prove that saved people can't lose their salvation. But that is exactly what you will encounter because so many of them are so thoroughly indoctrinated and blinded by OSAS doctrine.

And Just where is the word JUSTIFIED in this verse?????

The context of the passage is justification.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification-vs.4), but faith working through love (that is what means something toward justification). " (Galatians 5:6 NASB parenthesis mine)

He's telling them circumcision or uncircumcison (works of the law) is not what matters towards justification and that the only thing that matters toward justification is faith. And then he tells them what kind of faith matters towards justification--faith "working through love". But so many in the modern Protestant church insist that dead faith, and faith that has ceased, justifies too. This completely contradicts what Paul says, that the faith that justifies is the faith that loves, not does nothing, or goes away and does nothing.

Folks, remember this verse when refuting the false doctrine that dead faith, or loss of faith after you have believed justifies.

The Galatians were not saved at this point?

They are very much saved. If they weren't Paul would have no reason to warn them about making justification in Christ of no effect and being separated from Christ by turning to works of the law for justification (vs.4). But the argument only matters if you have determined ahead of time that being saved automatically equates to being forever saved--the circular reasoning of many OSASer's who argue their doctrine.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Paul described eternal life as a gift (charisma) of God in Rom 6:23. Then, in Rom 11:29he said that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable. How do you get around that?"

Jesus used the parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB to show how we too will lose the gracious, unmerited gift of forgiveness if we show contempt for that gift by not acting in accordance with it. And this hardly contradicts what Paul is saying in Romans 11 because the context there is the gifts and calling given to (unsaved) Israel.

This is untrue. The Greek word for "gift" in both Rom 6:23 and 11:29 is the SAME WORD. And Paul doesn't use the word between the 2 verses. So it is very clear that eternal life is a gift that is irrevocable.

btw, Matt 18:23-35 doesn't allow you to "get around" Rom 6:23 and 11:29.

And, you have not shown that Paul was excluding the "charisma" (gift) of eternal life when he wrote Rom 11:29.

I'm posting this for the benefit of others so they can refute the argument that works only have bearing on rewards, not on salvation itself.

Except, your response didn't refute anything. It just sidestepped the reality that eternal life is a gift that is irrevocable.

Also, Paul uses "charisma" for justification in Rom 5. So, another gift that is irrevocable.

If your view were correct, why didn't Paul just state the exception, since you think there is one?

The fact that he didn't note any exceptions means there aren't any exceptions.

 

[chessman]

Folks, remember this verse when refuting the false doctrine that dead faith, or loss of faith after you have believed justifies.

And then remember to actually read the verses around Gal 5:6 that tell us Whom produced this faith (v22) through you (v5).

And remember to thank God for loving you in that way. And ask yourself; Does God make mistskes?

And remember, anti-OSASers have their presupposed ideas and reason circularly too sometimes.

Sometimes even plainly.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I said this:
"Paul described eternal life as a gift (charisma) of God in Rom 6:23. Then, in Rom 11:29he said that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable. How do you get around that?"

This is untrue. The Greek word for "gift" in both Rom 6:23 and 11:29 is the SAME WORD. And Paul doesn't use the word between the 2 verses. So it is very clear that eternal life is a gift that is irrevocable.

btw, Matt 18:23-35 doesn't allow you to "get around" Rom 6:23 and 11:29.

And, you have not shown that Paul was excluding the "charisma" (gift) of eternal life when he wrote Rom 11:29.


Except, your response didn't refute anything. It just sidestepped the reality that eternal life is a gift that is irrevocable.

Also, Paul uses "charisma" for justification in Rom 5. So, another gift that is irrevocable.

If your view were correct, why didn't Paul just state the exception, since you think there is one?

The fact that he didn't note any exceptions means there aren't any exceptions.

So we don't lose anybody here...the argument is being made that you can't lose the free gift of salvation because Paul said in Romans 11:29 NASB that "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable", which, it is argued, must include justification, because justification through the forgiveness of sins is a gift, too. The point of which is, if salvation can not be lost by what you do or believe, because it is irrevocable, then works only have bearing on your future rewards in the kingdom, not on salvation itself.

The problem with this argument is we see in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB that the free, unmerited gift of forgiveness will indeed be revoked in the kingdom from the person who receives it but who then shows contempt for the free gift.

So, if your opponent wants to insist that the free gift of justification through the forgiveness of sins (Colossians 1:14 NASB) is included in the gifts and calling that are irrevocable in Romans 11:29 NASB then they must also admit that the Bible has a very serious contradiction in it--Jesus says forgiveness will be revoked, Paul says it can not be revoked. So, it's impossible that the free gift of justification through the forgiveness of sins is what is being spoken about by Paul in his teaching about God being true to his promise that the Israelites will one day walk in the gifts and calling they have received and can not have them revoked. (As a nation they have not received the free gift of justification anyway that it can somehow be argued that it can't be revoked).

The context plainly shows that Paul is not taking time out to tell us that the forgiveness of sins is irrevocable by saying "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable". He's talking about the promises God made to the Israelites through Abraham. Promises they have yet to fully realize in Christ, but will one day, because that promise is irrevocable. We know from the prophets that future generations of Isrealites will indeed receive Christ, and not only enjoy the gifts and callings given to them as a nation centuries ago once again, but enjoy the free gift of justification through the forgiveness of sins as well (Zechariah 13:1 NASB, Ezekiel 36:24-33 NASB). It's hardly a passage about the forgiveness of sins not being able to be taken away. Remind your opponent that Jesus said his Father will indeed take the forgiveness of sins in the kingdom away from the person who shows contempt for it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you 100% sure that the faith Paul is speaking of here is ongoing and never ending love? I'll just assume yes, since that's what you said. Good on you. Me too!


But let's think that through to it's logical conclusion then and welcome to OSAS. Where does this ongoing and never ending faith come from??? Hmm, I know, let's see what Paul says about where that faith comes from:

Galatians 5:22 (LEB) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ...​

I'm sure that since you believe Gal 5:6 you also believe 5:5 and 5:22, right? The faith Paul is speaking of in Gal 5 is produced by (the fruit of) The Holy Spirit per v 22 and 5. No wonder it's ongoing and never ending. Good on you to recognize that faith is never ending, working through love, through The Holy Spirit's love for a believer in Christ.

Galatians 5:5 (LEB) For through the Spirit by faith ... faith working through love. Gal 5:6​

Okay folks, what we see here is a common misunderstanding of what faith is. A misunderstanding that leads to the erroneous thinking in the church that since God gives the faith that justifies he's the only one that can take it away. The mistake is thinking that the gift of faith, and the believing you do with that faith, are one and the same thing. Let's look at the Biblical definition of faith:

"1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. " (Hebrews 11:1 NASB)

We know from everyday life that many people can be convicted that something is true, and yet choose to not believe that which they know is true. In regard to the gospel, John describes this knowing, but rejecting the truth here:

"10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son." (1 John 5:10 NASB)

Simply having the faith from God to know something is true is not enough. You have to believe in the testimony that God gives through the supernatural gift of faith. You must put your trust in that which you now know to be true in order to be saved. That trusting is the believing--the 'faith'-- that justifies. Believing is not an automatic outcome of simply knowing something is true as if the faith to know something is true, and believing in what you know to be true, are one and the same thing. If that were so, John would not speak of those who call the Holy Spirit a liar by rejecting what He shows them to be the truth about the Son. Faith is only having the ability to know something is true. Believing, on the other hand, is actually putting your trust in that which God's has shown you to be true through the gracious gift of faith.

God does in fact give and take the power of faith as he sees fit. But it is man's responsibility to then believe in that which God has shown him to be true through that gift of faith. It's a mistake to think that the faith to believe, and the believing done in response to faith, are one and the same thing, and therefore, only God can take the believing away, not man. Faith is the gift that God gives to man so he can then believe and be saved. Having the supernatural enabling of faith to know something is true (Hebrews 11:1 NASB) hardly automatically equates to then trusting and believing in what you now know to be true. As I've shown, John shows us that is not true at all. This is also what James points out in his letter in chapter 2 (James 2:19-20 NASB). Point these out to those who mistakenly equate the gift of faith with the believing that man is responsible to do in order to defend OSAS. Simply knowing something is true is not enough. You must put your trust--your believing--in that which you know to be true.

 

[mswright6488]

(Post removed. A&T Guidelines state: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Obadiah)

 

[FreeGrace]

So we don't lose anybody here...the argument is being made that you can't lose the free gift of salvation because Paul said in Romans 11:29 NASB that "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable", which, it is argued, must include justification, because justification through the forgiveness of sins is a gift, too. The point of which is, if salvation can not be lost by what you do or believe, because it is irrevocable, then works only have bearing on your future rewards in the kingdom, not on salvation itself.

Excellent deduction!! That is exactly my position.

The problem with this argument is we see in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB that the free, unmerited gift of forgiveness will indeed be revoked in the kingdom from the person who receives it but who then shows contempt for the free gift.

The problem with your argument is several, actually. First, you are trying to pit Scripture against Scripture. Either your understanding of Matt 18 is incorrect, or Paul's statements don't really mean what they say. Since Rom 6:23 and 11:29 are absolutely crystal clear and totally unambiguous, I suggest your view of Matt 18 isn't correct.

So, is there a view that doesn't contradict Rom 6:12-11:29? There must be, because Paul's statements are direct and plain. God's gifts are irrevocable. Period. That being so, let's consider what Matt 18 actually means, because it CANNOT contradict what Paul wrote.

The point is that we must forgive others as often as they need it. (18:22). Then Jesus gives a parable. Remember, parables aren't literal. They tell a story and give a principle. This parable has nothing to do with gaining or holding onto salvation. It's all about forgiveness of others, as v.22 clearly indicates. Even the parable is about forgiveness of others. And the parable is directly aligned with Matt 6:14,15 - "14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

If this, or Matt 18 had anything to do with gaining or keeping salvation, then faith is immaterial to our salvation, which we know to be totally untrue. Recall that there are no verses that teach that that unforgiven sin in the life of the believer will result in loss of salvation.

What is the point of receiving forgiveness of sin for the believer? To restore or maintain fellowship with God, as 1 John 1 teaches. That's why 1 Jn 1:9 is for believers, saved people.

Finally, there is no evidence in Scripure that forgiveness is EVER described as a gift. Ever.

So, if your opponent wants to insist that the free gift of justification through the forgiveness of sins (Colossians 1:14 NASB) is included in the gifts and calling that are irrevocable in Romans 11:29 NASB then they must also admit that the Bible has a very serious contradiction in it--Jesus says forgiveness will be revoked, Paul says it can not be revoked.

Since I suppose everyone here will acknowledge that the Bible does not contain any contradictions, it should be obvious from what Paul clearly stated that your view of Matt 18 is in error.

So, it's impossible that the free gift of justification through the forgiveness of sins is what is being spoken about by Paul in his teaching about God being true to his promise that the Israelites will one day walk in the gifts and calling they have received and can not have them revoked. (As a nation they have not received the free gift of justification anyway that it can somehow be argued that it can't be revoked).

This isn't even about Israel, even though Paul mentions them in various chapters of Romans, including ch 11. He specifically noted that justification is a gift, and eternal life is a gift. In Eph 2:8, he describes salvation as a gift. And he used the exact same word for 'gift' in all passages, including Rom 11:29.

So, if you want to continue to hold to your view of Matt 18, then you have a contradiction between Matt and Paul.

The context plainly shows that Paul is not taking time out to tell us that the forgiveness of sins is irrevocable by saying "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable".

Correct. He IS saying that both justification and eternal life, which are gifts, are irrevocable. Once given, they are irrevocable. He is saying exactly that.

He's talking about the promises God made to the Israelites through Abraham.

There is no evidence of this. God's promises are NOT gifts, either here in Rom 11, or anywhere else in Scripture.

Paul clearly described what he meant by gifts: justification and eternal life. Both of which are received through faith. Not through forgiveness. Forgiveness is NEVER described as a gift, so your view is in error.

 

[gr8grace3]

This is not in contention. We know this right from the first chapter:

"6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel" (Galatians 1:6 NASB)

So, we know they had already believed. We all agree that anyone who has faith in Christ for a declaration of righteousness is saved when they believe. But the problem is OSASer's think it's an issue that has to be brought up because many OSASer's instantly project their predetermined doctrine on the fact that they are saved to prove that since they are saved they are saved forever, 'see?'.

They say just the fact that they are saved already proves they are saved forever. That's because they have the lenses of their predetermined doctrine firmly fastened over their eyes and can't see they are guilty of trying to prove OSAS using circular reasoning instead of letting the scriptures speak for themselves.

They often commit this big sin of the OSAS defense. They use what is trying to be determined to come up the answer . I see this over and over and over again in these kinds of discussions. OSAS'ers have the lenses of 'once you're saved you are always saved' securely fastened over their eyes so that they can't see what the scriptures so plainly say about it. They show that they do when they use OSAS as the defense for OSAS (that circular reasoning thing again). Folks, this is very common. Be prepared to point it out.

So, the bottom line is, you can't say, 'see, they're already saved' to somehow prove that saved people can't lose their salvation. But that is exactly what you will encounter because so many of them are so thoroughly indoctrinated and blinded by OSAS doctrine.

So now I know that we both think they were justified at this point. That was the point. The rest of this is just assumption And distraction.

The context of the passage is justification.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification-vs.4), but faith working through love (that is what means something toward justification). " (Galatians 5:6 NASB parenthesis mine)

He's telling them circumcision or uncircumcison (works of the law) is not what matters towards justification and that the only thing that matters toward justification is faith. And then he tells them what kind of faith matters towards justification--faith "working through love". But so many in the modern Protestant church insist that dead faith, and faith that has ceased, justifies too. This completely contradicts what Paul says, that the faith that justifies is the faith that loves, not does nothing, or goes away and does nothing.

Folks, remember this verse when refuting the false doctrine that dead faith, or loss of faith after you have believed justifies.



They are very much saved. If they weren't Paul would have no reason to warn them about making justification in Christ of no effect and being separated from Christ by turning to works of the law for justification (vs.4). But the argument only matters if you have determined ahead of time that being saved automatically equates to being forever saved--the circular reasoning of many OSASer's who argue their doctrine.

OK.......now going off of what you believe(I'm not trying to prove eternal security, just because they were saved in the first place[but it does.]) At what exact point did the Galatians or will the Galatians lose their salvation? Because Pauls very next verse is this...Gal 5:7~~New American Standard Bible
You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

At what exact point did or will the Galatians lose their gift of eternal life that they gained by the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ through their one shot, instant non-meritorious belief In Christ Jesus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Folks this is why we need to study and know bible doctrine.

New American Standard Bible
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

The subtle counterfeit~~The faith working through love is the only faith that will save.......Sounds good to us, sounds pleasant to us and most christians would not have a problem with it. There is something MAJOR missing.

Rom 7:24~~New American Standard Bible
Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

The "Who" is subtly replaced by a "What"
Rom 7:25~~New American Standard Bible
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Lets replace it with our "what":
Wretched man that I am! "what" will set me free from the body of this death?

Thanks be to God through faith working in love! So then, on one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Therefore there is no condemnation for those who have faith working through love.

He had His Beard plucked out,He was beaten to an unrecognizable state, He was counted as a dog, He was spit upon, he was whipped with bone and iron that tore off His flesh so one could see His guts, The Romans had a practice of taking handfuls of salt and throwing it on the wounds, He was mocked, He had a crown of thorns crushed onto His head, he was counted as a criminal, he was nailed to a cross And He never opened His mouth....... Yet He screamed when He was forsaken by the Father and Had the sins of the WORLD laid upon Him.

And Here we are as WRETCHED men believing that He didn't do enough, We have a sin that can crush Him, He can't keep me saved. I Have to do more!

This is why I defend eternal security, It is blasphemous and a direct attack on HIM to think that wretched, weak,twisted,sick, sinners can thwart His so great salvation.

Rom 8 : 37-39~~37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Finally, there is no evidence in Scripure that forgiveness is EVER described as a gift. Ever.
[...]
Paul clearly described what he meant by gifts: justification and eternal life. Both of which are received through faith. Not through forgiveness. Forgiveness is NEVER described as a gift, so your view is in error.

It's amazing, but we see this disconnect between justification, the blood of Christ, and the forgiveness of sins very often in the church. But forgiveness is the very essence of our justification. Forgiveness is how we are justified. Justification is a gift. Justification is wrought through the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness most certainly is a gift of God that you did no works of righteousness to earn and which results in justification and is described as such in the Bible:

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace (Ephesians 1:7 NASB)

24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus... (Romans 3:24 NASB)

14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (Colossians 1:14 NASB)

9...we have now been justified by his blood..." (Romans 5:9 NASB)

The point of all this being, Christ teaches us in Matthew 18:23-35 that the person who shows contempt for the free gift of forgiveness will lose that forgiveness. Even if your opponent wants to argue that the forgiveness being spoken about in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB is not the forgiveness of justification it's still a free gift that is not earned and it can be revoked, which makes it impossible that the "gifts and the calling" that are irrevocable in Romans 11:29 NASB is saying that the gift of forgiveness (justification) is irrevocable. That contradicts what Jesus taught. A simple read in context shows that Paul is referring to the gifts and calling given to (unsaved) Israel:

"28 From the standpoint of the gospel they (the Israelites-vs.26) are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the promise of blessing made to them);
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29 NASB parenthesis mine)

So you can see this is hardly a passage explaining 'once saved always saved'. It shows us that future generations of Israelites will one day walk in their gifts and calling, because the gifts and calling given to them will never be revoked, because they are promises made to their Fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob). Furthermore, to try and make the passage a proof text that justification through the forgiveness of sins is irrevocable directly contradicts Jesus who said forgiveness--a free gift of God--will indeed be withdrawn if you show contempt for it. And as I say, even if they want to argue he's not talking about forgiveness for salvation that forgiveness is still a free gift of God and is irrevocable.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

At what exact point did the Galatians or will the Galatians lose their salvation? Because Pauls very next verse is this...Gal 5:7~~New American Standard Bible
You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

At what exact point did or will the Galatians lose their gift of eternal life that they gained by the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ...

We don't know. We just know that they will if they persist in their rejection of Christ for justification by relying on the works of the law for that justification.

4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness." (Galatians 5:4-5 NASB)

He's explaining to them that they have removed themselves from the grace of Christ and are instead seeking justification through law keeping. He's reminding them that it is by faith that we receive the hope of a righteousness to come, not through law keeping. If they they still had the hope of righteousness in their faithless law keeping he would not be explaining to them that faith is how they have that hope.

And Here we are as WRETCHED men believing that He didn't do enough, We have a sin that can crush Him, He can't keep me saved. I Have to do more!

Well, that may be your argument, but that's hardly what 'faith working through love' means.

The argument is, the faith that saves all by itself is the faith that can be seen in what a person does. The person who doesn't work is the person who doesn't believe, his lack of work being the evidence of his lack of faith in Christ. That can mean he either never believed to begin with, or he stopped believing somewhere along the line. But either way, he does not have that which he needs to be saved--faith in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. If he did once believe his debt of unforgiveness will be reinstated and he will be lost if he persists in his unbelief because he has trampled on the blood of Christ, treating it with contempt. God has made no provision of forgiveness for the sin of rejecting the forgiveness of God. It is the unforgivable sin--the sin of rejecting the voice of God through the Holy Spirit testifying to the forgiveness of sins through the Son.

Works not only count toward future rewards in the kingdom, they also are the expected and obligatory footsteps of faith (the faith and obedience of Abraham). Not because those works somehow justify, but because those works are what faith does. The faith that loves is the faith that saves. The faith that does not obey God is the faith that can not justify.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's amazing, but we see this disconnect between justification, the blood of Christ, and the forgiveness of sins very often in the church.

I have not disconnected these 3 things, regardless of what you might think.

But forgiveness is the very essence of our justification. Forgiveness is how we are justified.

Incorrect, sir. Justification is on the basis of faith. That isn't forgiveness. They do go together, but one does not create the other, as you assume. Here are some verses to help you out understanding the basis for one's justification:

Acts 13:39 Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.
Rom 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference.
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:28, 30 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Gal 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Justification is a gift. Justification is wrought through the forgiveness of sins.

See the verses above for the correct view of the basis for justification.

Forgiveness most certainly is a gift of God that you did no works of righteousness to earn and which results in justification

There are ZERO verses that ever describe forgiveness as a gift. Not any. It is NOT called a gift.

and is described as such in the Bible:

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace (Ephesians 1:7 NASB)

24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus... (Romans 3:24 NASB)

14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (Colossians 1:14 NASB)

9...we have now been justified by his blood..." (Romans 5:9 NASB)

I don't see any of these vertses calling forgiveness a gift. So why do you call it a gift?

The point of all this being, Christ teaches us in Matthew 18:23-35 that the person who shows contempt for the free gift of forgiveness will lose that forgiveness.

And because it isn't a gift, much less an irrevocable gift, you have no point at all.

Even if your opponent wants to argue that the forgiveness being spoken about in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB is not the forgiveness of justification it's still a free gift that is not earned and it can be revoked, which makes it impossible that the "gifts and the calling" that are irrevocable in Romans 11:29 NASB is saying that the gift of forgiveness (justification) is irrevocable.

The point of Rom 11:29 is that the gift of eternal life (6:23) is irrevocable.

Can you demonstrate from Romans that Paul wasn't including the gift of eternal life as one of the gifts that are irrevocaable? Only then can I believe your claim. And not until.

That contradicts what Jesus taught. A simple read in context shows that Paul is referring to the gifts and calling given to (unsaved) Israel:

"28 From the standpoint of the gospel they (the Israelites-vs.26) are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the promise of blessing made to them);
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29 NASB parenthesis mine)

Once again, I fail to see where any of this is called a gift to Israel. So please tell me, what exactly are these irrevocable gifts that you think God has given to unsaved Israel? I surely do not know.

So you can see this is hardly a passage explaining 'once saved always saved'.

I will repeat: the gift of God is eternal life, and God's gifts are irrevocable. Period. You have failed to prove otherwise.

It shows us that future generations of Israelites will one day walk in their gifts and calling, because the gifts and calling given to them will never be revoked, because they are promises made to their Fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob).

Now you're just conflating promises with actual gifts. You still haven't defined what you think these gifts are, specifically. While I've given 2 very specific gifts that Paul identified within the letter to the Romans: justification and eternal life.

And… Paul never described anything towards unsaved Israel as gifts, or calling.

Furthermore, to try and make the passage a proof text that justification through the forgiveness of sins is irrevocable directly contradicts Jesus who said forgiveness--a free gift of God--will indeed be withdrawn if you show contempt for it.

Your error is in your assumption that forgiveness is a free gift. The Bible NEVER calls it that; only you do, in your attempt to defend your indefensible view.

Paul specifically described both justification and eternal life as "charisma", translated as gifts. Then, in Rom 11:29, he specifically said that the charisma (gifts) of God are irrevocable. This is irrefutable.

[QUOTE4] And as I say, even if they want to argue he's not talking about forgiveness for salvation that forgiveness is still a free gift of God and is irrevocable. [/QUOTE]
OK, if you want to say that forgiveness is irrevocable, fine. But Paul didn't have forgiveness in mind. He did, however, have justification and eternal life directly in mind as to what God's gifts are. And they are irrevocable.

Eternal life is irrevocable, as proven by Paul's letter to the Romans. You cannot separate the gift of eternal life from Rom 11:29. And you haven't.

Because eternal life is irrevocable, OSAS is proven from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

Works not only count toward future rewards in the kingdom, they also are the expected and obligatory footsteps of faith (the faith and obedience of Abraham). Not because those works somehow justify, but because those works are what faith does. The faith that loves is the faith that saves. The faith that does not obey God is the faith that can not justify.

None of this is supported by Scripture. Just pure speculation on your part. Or wishful thinking.

 

[gr8grace3]

Well, that may be your argument, but that's hardly what 'faith working through love' means.

It is the argument. These Galatians were saying," Christ is not enough, we have to go back to the works of law and do more for our salvation."

And if they went back to the works of the law we would all "see" those works and say to ourselves."Now there are some moral,good,upright folks!" Following the law is morality,good works and clean living.

And Here we have Paul, chewing them out because they were not living with Faith working through love.

They had fallen out of love with their Savior,and believed that Christ was not enough and had to go back to the Law to stay saved or "help" Him.

Faith working through love, is loving your Savior and knowing that He is your Savior and nothing else. Turning to the Law,our good works,our morality and what people "see" is doing exactly what Paul is chewing the Galatians out for.

Instead of "faith working through love" they had "faith working for salvation or keeping their salvation."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And as I say, even if they want to argue he's not talking about forgiveness for salvation that forgiveness is still a free gift of God and is irrevocable.

OK, if you want to say that forgiveness is irrevocable, fine. .

Oops! My bad. I meant to say "...that forgiveness is still a free gift of God and is revocable."

But anyway.....all you've essentially done is said, "no it's not" in response to what I've posted so there's really nothing else for me to say about your doctrine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is the argument. These Galatians were saying," Christ is not enough, we have to go back to the works of law and do more for our salvation."

And if they went back to the works of the law we would all "see" those works and say to ourselves."Now there are some moral,good,upright folks!" Following the law is morality,good works and clean living.

And Here we have Paul, chewing them out because they were not living with Faith working through love.

They had fallen out of love with their Savior,and believed that Christ was not enough and had to go back to the Law to stay saved or "help" Him.

Faith working through love, is loving your Savior and knowing that He is your Savior and nothing else. Turning to the Law,our good works,our morality and what people "see" is doing exactly what Paul is chewing the Galatians out for.

Instead of "faith working through love" they had "faith working for salvation or keeping their salvation."

You have yet to explain what "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6 NASB) means. So far all I'm getting out of what you post is faith doesn't work through love, or doesn't have to. That's hardly what Paul said.

 

[gr8grace3]

You have yet to explain what "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6 NASB) means. So far all I'm getting out of what you post is faith doesn't work through love, or doesn't have to. That's hardly what Paul said.

It was in my post.

Faith working through love, is loving your Savior and knowing that He is your Savior and nothing else. Turning to the Law,our good works,our morality and what people "see" is doing exactly what Paul is chewing the Galatians out for.

And first of all, if we think that we can lose salvation, like the Galatians did. Our faith is not working through love. It is faith working for salvation or to maintain salvation. Which is DEAD works.

Faith working through love is how the believer grows experientially in his/her spiritual life. It is virtue love, not some emotional "feeling" that we have for people. Virtue love is produced or empowered in the soul by the filling of the Spirit and it is personal love for God the Father and what He did for us and expresses itself in impersonal and unconditional love for mankind.

If one has faith working through (virtue) love.....personal love for God the Father. One would believe what the Father has done for them. The Galatians thought that they could lose their salvation and had to revert back to the Law and had stopped believing what the Father had done for them.
John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Oops! My bad. I meant to say "...that forgiveness is still a free gift of God and is revocable."

OK, but this doesn't have any relevance to the fact that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

But anyway.....all you've essentially done is said, "no it's not" in response to what I've posted so there's really nothing else for me to say about your doctrine.

It isn't "my" doctrine. It's Bible doctrine. Which Paul taught.

Can you show from anywhere in Paul's letter to the Romans that he wasn't including the gift of eternal life in his statement of Rom 11:29? If you can't, then why don't you accept that eternal life IS irrevocable?

In light of Scripture, your view is contradictory to Scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

OK, but this doesn't have any relevance to the fact that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Having your sins forgiven for free apart from the merit of works is how you get the justification that leads to eternal life, yet your doctrine conveniently excused the forgiveness of sins from your list of free gifts that can't be taken away. And, of course, it has to do that because I showed in the Bible the free gift of the forgiveness of sins being rescinded. It doesn't even matter if the free gift being rescinded in Matthew 18:23-35 is the forgiveness required for salvation, or not (as if there's a difference). The plain fact is the Bible shows us that just because something is a free gift that you did not earn does not mean it can't be revoked.

Can you show from anywhere in Paul's letter to the Romans that he wasn't including the gift of eternal life in his statement of Rom 11:29? If you can't, then why don't you accept that eternal life IS irrevocable?

In light of Scripture, your view is contradictory to Scripture.

I did that already, but I know you have the habit of going into denial and saying people did not show you anything.