Salvation vs. Rewards of our Race

[Jethro Bodine]

It was in my post.

Faith working through love, is loving your Savior and knowing that He is your Savior and nothing else. Turning to the Law,our good works,our morality and what people "see" is doing exactly what Paul is chewing the Galatians out for.

You do know what the Bible says that loving God looks like, right? It's not lip service, gr8.

"17 But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
19 We will know by this that we are of the truth..." (1 John 3: NASB)


Love for God IS love for others. And it's an active working, not just words. The one who says he loves God but does not love others does not love God (1 John 4:20 NASB). In fact, he does not know God:

"8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." (1 John 4:8 NASB)

And first of all, if we think that we can lose salvation, like the Galatians did. Our faith is not working through love. It is faith working for salvation or to maintain salvation. Which is DEAD works.

You show that you simply do not know the argument.

Works are the footprint of the faith that justifies all by itself. The works themselves don't justify. They are the manifestation of unseen believing. If your 'believing' does not leave visible footprints then you have a faith that can not justify. You will be lost on the Day of Wrath.

20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. (1 John 4:20 NASB)

But your doctrine says one can NOT love his brother whom he has seen, but still love God and have the faith that justifies.

 

[FreeGrace]

Having your sins forgiven for free apart from the merit of works is how you get the justification that leads to eternal life, yet your doctrine conveniently excused the forgiveness of sins from your list of free gifts that can't be taken away.

The ONLY thing that I see as being "conveniently excused" here is your refusal to face the fact that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. And you've NEVER provided any verse that describes forgiveness as a gift.

And, of course, it has to do that because I showed in the Bible the free gift of the forgiveness of sins being rescinded.

Your calling forgiveness a gift doesn't make it a gift. You have zero support from Scripture.

It doesn't even matter if the free gift being rescinded in Matthew 18:23-35 is the forgiveness required for salvation, or not (as if there's a difference). The plain fact is the Bible shows us that just because something is a free gift that you did not earn does not mean it can't be revoked.

But the Bible does NOT show that forgiveness is a gift, as defined by Paul and said to be irrevocable. All you've done is create a straw man argument. A red herring. Let's stick with the context of the letter to the Romans. They weren't reading from Matt when Paul wrote to them. In fact, we don't really know when Matt was written, so let's NOT bring non -context writings to the discussion.

We understand what Paul wrote by looking within the letter to the Romans. Not from trying to find something in some other writing to justify a biased belief.

You want to know what is described as a gift (charisma) of God? Rom 1:11 (spiritual gifts), 5:15 (justification), and 6:23 (eternal life) uses that exact word. The next time Paul used "charisma" is 11:29. So, it is clear what he meant to include in 11:29 as gifts that are irrevocable.

I said this:
"Can you show from anywhere in Paul's letter to the Romans that he wasn't including the gift of eternal life in his statement of Rom 11:29? If you can't, then why don't you accept that eternal life IS irrevocable?"

I did that already, but I know you have the habit of going into denial and saying people did not show you anything.

lol

I have shown that the Greek word "charisma" isn't used between 6:23 and 11:29. So you CANNOT show anywhere between those verses where Paul described anything as a gift of God. So your opinion that Paul was referring to "callings and gifts" to Israel is fallacious.

Paul specifically identified what he MEANT by gift: spiritual gifts, justification, and eternal life. And the next time he used that word, charisma, is 11:29 where he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.

It is you who is denying what Scripture is saying. And saying very clearly.

And you haven't shown any gift from the context of Romans that was just to Israel.

So please quit saying something that isn't true. [edited by staff. ]

 

[gr8grace3]

You do know what the Bible says that loving God looks like, right? It's not lip service, gr8.

"17 But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
19 We will know by this that we are of the truth..." (1 John 3: NASB)


Love for God IS love for others. And it's an active working, not just words. The one who says he loves God but does not love others does not love God (1 John 4:20 NASB). In fact, he does not know God:

"8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." (1 John 4:8 NASB)

I agree.
And what the Galatians did was switch their motivations. False teachers came in and convinced them that Christ was not enough,they really were not saved, or had to help Christ out or would lose their salvation if they did not revert back to the law.
Its not like the Galatians lost their love for people or quit doing good works,they probably started doing MORE good works trying to follow the law. They were producing DIVINE good and their motives changed it to HUMAN good.

Their motivation was now to keep,get or maintain what God had already done for them.

If they would of not listened to the false teachers that convinced them they could lose their salvation, Christ only did part,Christ really didn't save them, they needed to go back to the law. Stayed under their right pastor teacher. Studied every day. Their motivation would of stayed out of love for what the Father already did for them.
John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

If my good works are geared towards my salvation or maintaining my salvation or if I think it is possible to lose my salvation. My good works are burned up. Wrong motivation.

If I am filled with the Spirit and do good works out of love for what the father did for me, I have a chance of producing divine good works through the Spirit.
Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
One of these lusts of our flesh is wanting to save ourselves.

If we are walking in the Spirit and filled with the Spirit John 5:24 is real and believed. But if we are not, our flesh can convince us that John 5:24 can be explained away somehow.

You show that you simply do not know the argument.

Works are the footprint of the faith that justifies all by itself. The works themselves don't justify.

Actually it shows I know the argument all to well! We can just get right to heart of the matter!

And this is it:

If the works don't justify, then we do not need works to be justified! We just need belief.

Eph 2:8-9~~8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Motivation,motivation,motivation, what is our motivation?

If our motivation to do good works is to maintain,gain or for fear of losing salvation, they are human good and burned up....dead works.

But if we are filled with the Spirit and walking in the Spirit and doing good works through the Spirit out of love for what the Father did for us, those good works are DIVINE good works.

Eph 2:10~~10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If the works don't justify, then we do not need works to be justified! We just need belief.

Nobody is arguing this. But the faith that justifies--all by itself--is the faith that loves.

"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

You're hearing the argument as 'you are justified by love'. But the argument is, 'the faith that justifies all by itself, is the faith that loves'. The person who says they have the faith that justifies all by itself, but does no work in accordance with that love does not have the faith that justifies all by itself.

It is completely anti-scriptural to tell people that the faith that justifies all by itself can be absent works. The faith that does not work is not the faith that justifies all by itself. But some sects of OSAS insist the faith that justifies all by itself (as it surely does) does not have to love, in complete defiance to what Paul said. That's why works don't just determine future rewards. They determine if your faith is the faith that justifies all by itself.

 

[gr8grace3]

"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

You're hearing the argument as 'you are justified by love'.

I am not. I am hearing and reading the argument as ' you are justified by works.' You have just substituted the word 'works' for 'love' and are using a verse that explains experiential sanctification for the believer as a salvation verse.

You are not following my argument at ALL.

"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)
One has to be IN CHRIST JESUS in order to have faith working through love. An unbeliever can not have faith working through love to "obtain" his salvation.

Once again, this 'love' is virtue love. It is personal love for God the Father, which comes through the Spirit(So we have to be filled and walking in the Spirit) and It(this love) is expressed through our impersonal,unconditional love for mankind. This love is not something our flesh can manifest to be saved.

To be honest with you, if one does not believe in eternal security and what the Father has done for them, It is going to be impossible for the believer to express ' faith working through love.' To love and know the Father is to know and believe eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

Nobody is arguing this. But the faith that justifies--all by itself--is the faith that loves.

"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

You're hearing the argument as 'you are justified by love'. But the argument is, 'the faith that justifies all by itself, is the faith that loves'.

All you've done is cobble together verses that aren't connected. There is nothing about "faith working through love" that links justification to love.

Why are believers commanded to "love the brethren" if all faith "loves" already? Heb 13:1 commands believers to "continue to love the brethren". This refutes your idea.

The person who says they have the faith that justifies all by itself, but does no work in accordance with that love

does not have the faith that justifies all by itself.

Where is the evidence of this idea? James never said anything close to this. The entire second and third chapters of his epistle are about hypocrisy, even though he never used that word. Does one have to use that word in order to talk about it or give exampes of it? Of course not.

It is completely anti-scriptural to tell people that the faith that justifies all by itself can be absent works.

So, you preach that one is saved by faith plus works, huh. About the same as the RCC. Yet, Paul demolished that argument here:

Rom 4:4,5 - 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

and here:

Eph 2;8,9 - 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The faith that does not work is not the faith that justifies all by itself.

Yet Paul refutes that idea completely, as seen above.

[QUTOE] But some sects of OSAS insist the faith that justifies all by itself (as it surely does) does not have to love, in complete defiance to what Paul said.[/QUOTE]
Such "sects" would be quite wrong, though that shouldn't be too surprising, given all the various and contradictory doctrines that are held by many believers.

In fact, believers are COMMANDED to love the brethren, and produce good works. But none of that (love, works) is for salvation. It's all AFTER one is saved.

That's why works don't just determine future rewards. They determine if your faith is the faith that justifies all by itself.

So, just getting into heaven means one will be rewarded, huh?? That's not what Scripture says:

2 Jn 8 - Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

You may assume this refers to loss of salvation, but the word "full" refutes such an idea. There is such a thing as partial reward. Yet one either does or does not get into heaven. There is no such thing as a partial entrance into heaven. You are either in or out.

What is partial is rewards. And rewards can be lost. Which is the point of all the warning parables.

 

[jonahmano]

(Post removed. A&T Guidelines state: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Obadiah.)

 

[jonahmano]

(Post removed, ToS 2.14. Obadiah.)