Salvation vs. Rewards of our Race

[JohnD]

Of a truth, baptism IS essential for salvation!

But it's not the baptism most think of.

John the water Baptist said essentially his baptism is only symbolic of the true baptism of the Holy Spirit performed by the Messiah Jesus Christ. And his other baptism is the baptism of fire (judgment / condemnation).

Matthew 3:11 (NASB95)
11“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Luke 3:16 (NASB95)
16John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Holy Spirit Baptism = salvation
Fire Baptism = judgment / condemnation
Water Baptism at best is a symbolic outward testimony of an inward transformation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Another point about rewards.

Those who die as unbelievers will have rewards for what they did or did not do in this life... in hell (lesser punishment). Romans is a good book to study to gain this, especially with phrases like "law unto themselves" etc. This has no bearing on eternal salvation which is through faith in Christ alone (John 3:16-18), but in degrees of lesser punishment in the eternal lake of fire.

I would disagree that the 'law unto themselves' doctrine is not about salvation. Since obedience is the measure of the faith that justifies (Galatians 5:6 NASB) it follows that the person who only has the law of conscience or nature by which to know God will have his faith measured by what he did in accordance with what he knew, just as we believer's faith is/will be measured by what we know and do, not by what we think.

Conversely, believers will have rewards in heaven according to what we did or did not do.

And which in turn is commensurate with the expectation of return that any one person has according to their gift and calling and the measure of faith they have been given to walk in that gift (Romans 12:3-8 NASB). IOW, I don't have the gift of evangelism. God will reward me according to what I am gifted to do, not what I'm not gifted to do.

1 Corinthians 3:12–15 (NASB95)
12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.
14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

For me personally, my work in crafting the building of God resting on the foundation of Christ Jesus will be judged according to what I'm gifted and equipped to do. In the Body of Christ we all have sort of a Oholiab and Bezalel ministry of working in stone (Exodus 31:2-6 NIV).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Of a truth, baptism IS essential for salvation!

It is. Water baptism represents a decision to repent. The Bible calls it 'John's baptism' (Acts 19:3-4 NASB). Repentance is indeed a necessary part of salvation. But by itself it births an outwardly clean man--a natural, earthly kingdom and nation of people. But that is not enough to see the kingdom of God. You must also be born from above, by the Spirit, through faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins (John 3:5-7 NASB). This is the message that the Israelites heard with the coming of Jesus, but which they rejected in favor of their 'water only' works salvation--a salvation of spiritless, faithless repentance.

 

[chessman]

I realized after I had posted that I did not make it clear that I was talking about people in the Protestant Evangelical church

Okay. That does clarify your statement.

Works salvation just isn't the issue with us.

I've met a few Protestants where it is an issue (some here on CFNet). Even specifically teaching that water baptism and keeping all ten commandments (especially #3 Sabbath) is necessary to maintain one's salvation. I even know some that think if you believe and/or teach OSAS, you are not saved. I suppose they tie it to a breaking of #10 (coveting) or #11 (loving others) since, in their minds, teaching OSAS is the same as teaching a license to sin to others.

Grace as a license to stay just the way you are is. It's the prevalent thinking among us ...

Stop listening to those folk. I've literally never heard "Grace as a license to stay just the way you are" or something similar from any reputable OSAS teaching person though. It seems to always come from the anti-OSAS side.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've met a few Protestants where it is an issue (some here on CFNet). Even specifically teaching that water baptism and keeping all ten commandments (especially #3 Sabbath) is necessary to maintain one's salvation. I even know some that think if you believe and/or teach OSAS, you are not saved. I suppose they tie it to a breaking of #10 (coveting) or #11 (loving others) since, in their minds, teaching OSAS is the same as teaching a license to sin to others.

As I said, even among the Messianics only one, maybe two thought that their literal obedience to the law bought your salvation. Everybody else's argument about their pet work being 'required' for salvation (water baptism, etc.) is in the vein of that work being an expected and obligatory manifestation of the faith that justifies all by itself, not that their pet work somehow buys them salvation.

I've literally never heard "Grace as a license to stay just the way you are" or something similar from any reputable OSAS teaching person though. It seems to always come from the anti-OSAS side.

I've heard it taught many times that the believer does not have to be obedient to be saved on the Day of Wrath because salvation is by grace not by works, but then turn right around and deny that grace being the reason you do not have to be obedient to be saved is a license to sin. That's contradictory.

 

[gr8grace3]

But somewhere along the line even faith itself came to be understood as a work of the law that Paul says can not justify.

I know when that was. It is when you started to believe that your faith saved you and not the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and you put the merit in your faith and took the merit from Your Savior,the Lord Jesus Christ.

You have made your faith the object of your salvation and Jesus Christ and His merit is meaningless.

You have put merit in faith, when the bible teaches that there is no merit in faith.......8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Faith cannot be a work or a work of the law, it has no merit in and of itself. You are putting merit in faith and believing, when the merit is in His Grace and the Lord Jesus Christ.

But it seems to be the predominant theology gripping the Protestant Evangelical church at this time.

Can you give me one example of a pastor teacher that claims," Faith itself is a work of the law that Paul says can't justify."
Faith is not a work and Faith can't justify. Grace and the Lord Jesus Christ justifies. I could have more faith in the 'big guy in the sky' than a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and that tremendous faith in the big guy in the sky will not save me.


The problem is that some think that faith is the object that does justify and it is not The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
New American Standard Bible Gal 2:16~~
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

I wish you would comment on the aorist tense of 'believe', here and Acts 16:31.
Both 'believe' and 'justified' are in the aorist tense, 'believe' is in the active voice. The aorist tense expresses a point in time and not a duration of time and the active voice expresses that the subject(believer) made the act of believing.

'justified' is in the aorist tense and PASSIVE voice. the aorist tense expresses a point in time and not duration. The PASSIVE voice expresses that the subject(believer) was acted upon by the object(Christ.)

our faith is not the object that acts upon us to justify us. It is Christ.

pisteuw 4100 aor act ind 1p ---verb *believed 21
iva 2443 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- in order that 22
dikaiow 1344 aor pas sub 1p ---verb *we may be justified

26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686

 

[chessman]

"(T)he believer does not have to be obedient to be saved on the Day of Wrath because salvation is by grace not by works, but then turn right around and deny that grace being the reason you do not have to be obedient to be saved is a license to sin."

That's contradictory.

Not to mention a mouth full. That's one long run-on sentence.

Also, is "grace being the reason you do not have to be obedient to be saved is a license to sin" a quote from a reputable OSAS person or is it something you came up with, speaking for such a person?

It would be helpful to your case (support your claims) against the OSAS side of the Protestant church today to actually quote one teaching that grace is a license to sin.

Here's what one says about sin:
"Reformed Theology takes sin seriously because it takes God seriously and because it takes people seriously. Sin offends God and violates human beings. Both of these are serious matters." (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Also, is "grace being the reason you do not have to be obedient to be saved is a license to sin" a quote from a reputable OSAS person or is it something you came up with, speaking for such a person?

Every OSAS person who says the believer can not lose his salvation by not obeying God because salvation is by grace, not works, is saying grace is a license to sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know when that was. It is when you started to believe that your faith saved you and not the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and you put the merit in your faith and took the merit from Your Savior,the Lord Jesus Christ.

That's hardly the argument. Here's the argument:

"For it is by grace that you have been saved, THROUGH faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God..." (Ephesians 2:8 NIV)

My faith saved me only in the sense that it is the conduit through which one gets the grace of God that saves. But many OSAS people say you don't even have to have the conduit of faith to still be saved. Because to say that is to say you are somehow earning your salvation. But we can plainly see that faith is the gift through which we get the grace of God, in contrast to the works of the law. The church has erred by saying that even the gift of faith Paul contrasted with works as the way to get justified is somehow itself a work that one does to try to earn salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith cannot be a work or a work of the law...

I agree. So why do many sects of OSAS say that if you think you have to have faith to the very end to be saved through that faith you are guilty of trying to earn your own salvation, as if faith is somehow among the works of the law that Paul said can not justify?

Can you give me one example of a pastor teacher that claims," Faith itself is a work of the law that Paul says can't justify."

When you or anyone else says it is a damnable work of the flesh that can not justify to depend on the conduit of faith in order to be saved, you have made faith equivalent to the works that Paul said cannot justify. But Paul plainly said faith is different than the works of the law and even contrasts, not equates it with the way of works as the way to justification. But so many OSASer's say the requirement to have faith to be saved is equivalent to saying you have to work to earn your salvation. Hardly what Paul taught. As we can see he taught quite the opposite. Faith is EXACTLY what you have to have to access the grace of God in salvation. No faith--no access to the grace of salvation.

Faith is not a work...

I agree it's not a work of the law. And so I must ask you why you teach that a person is damned if they say they must have faith to the very end to be saved, as if that faith is now a work of the law that can not justifiy?

Faith can't justify.

"We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." (Romans 3:28 NIV)

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace..." (Romans 5:1-2 NIV)

We need to go with what the Bible so plainly says in so many places, not what some sects of OSAS teach.

The problem is that some think that faith is the object that does justify and it is not The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You just think that's what the argument is. As I showed you faith is the conduit through which one accesses the grace of God in salvation. That is how one is 'justified by faith', just as Abraham was. It is impossible to teach that one can still have the grace that faith secures if you do not have the faith that does that.

New American Standard Bible Gal 2:16~~
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

You can't see 'justified by faith' in your own quote?

I wish you would comment on the aorist tense of 'believe', here and Acts 16:31.
Both 'believe' and 'justified' are in the aorist tense, 'believe' is in the active voice. The aorist tense expresses a point in time and not a duration of time and the active voice expresses that the subject(believer) made the act of believing.

'justified' is in the aorist tense and PASSIVE voice. the aorist tense expresses a point in time and not duration. The PASSIVE voice expresses that the subject(believer) was acted upon by the object(Christ.)

I did already comment on that. I showed you that you are misinterpreting the aorist tense. But if you don't want to acknowledge what I said there is no point in visiting that subject again.

 

[chessman]

Every OSAS person who says the believer can not lose his salvation by not obeying God because salvation is by grace, not works, is saying grace is a license to sin.

You still haven't provided a quotation by anyone other than yourself (an anti -OSAS person) saying that "... grace is a license to sin".

You are proving my point and continuing to make your case look weak. Now, very, very weak since you've been asked three times to quote a prominent OSAS teacher/pastor that says "grace is a license to sin". If you don't actually know of such a quotation by a reputable OSAS person, I can understand that. I don't either. But everytime you say "... grace is a license to sin" and it's prominent it just adds more quotes that is coming from the anti-OSAS side. Not the OSAS side.

If what you say is true, that this 'Grace is a license to sin' teaching is so prominent, then it should be easy for you to find and quote someone OSAS that teaches it.

Will you provide an actual example quote or just name someone on the OSAS side? I will not ask again or even discuss your statement above as it may not even relate specifically to this Thread all that much anyway. I just found it interesting that you say it's prominent within the OSAS church today, yet no quotation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You still haven't provided a quotation by anyone other than yourself (an anti -OSAS person) saying that "... grace is a license to sin".

You are proving my point and continuing to make your case look weak. Now, very, very weak since you've been asked three times to quote a prominent OSAS teacher/pastor that says "grace is a license to sin". If you don't actually know of such a quotation by a reputable OSAS person, I can understand that. I don't either. But everytime you say "... grace is a license to sin" and it's prominent it just adds more quotes that is coming from the anti-OSAS side. Not the OSAS side.

If what you say is true, that this 'Grace is a license to sin' teaching is so prominent, then it should be easy for you to find and quote someone OSAS that teaches it.

Will you provide an actual example quote or just name someone on the OSAS side? I will not ask again or even discuss your statement above as it may not even relate specifically to this Thread all that much anyway. I just found it interesting that you say it's prominent within the OSAS church today, yet no quotation.

Just because many OSASer's don't recognize their own argument as the 'grace is a license to sin' argument doesn't mean that's not what they're teaching.

I'll say it again. When anyone says a believer does not have to be obedient to be saved on the day of wrath because salvation is so utterly not of works they are teaching that grace is a license to sin. It's impossible to honestly argue the point.

Works are not just the icing on the cake for the believer. They are the expected and obligatory part of the faith that justifies (Galatians 5:6 NASB). That's why we are expected to produce them. Not just so we can get rewards for those works, but because they are as inextricably attached to faith as getting wet is to going swimming.

 

[chessman]

Just because many OSASer's don't recognize their own argument as the 'grace is a license to sin' argument doesn't mean that's not what they're teaching.

So it's the OSASer's that don't recognize their own arguments that teach it to you. I wouldn't listen to someone that doesn't even recognize their own arguments either. Still wondering who that is though.

Works are not just the icing on the cake for the believer. They are the expected and obligatory part of the faith that justifies (Galatians 5:6 NASB).

Huh?

Galatians 5:6 (LEB) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but faith working through love. ​

How does Gal 5:6 say what you just said within your argument; Works are the obligatory part of the faith?

Also, if you can, can you list out exactly which works are in fact obligatory?
1. Circumcision
2. Water Baptism
3. ???

 

[gr8grace3]

I agree it's not a work of the law. And so I must ask you why you teach that a person is damned if they say they must have faith to the very end to be saved, as if that faith is now a work of the law that can not justifiy?

Come on Jethro. I have never said that you are damned nor would I teach that someone is damned if they believe that. If you have ever made the choice to believe (aorist tense)on the Lord Jesus Christ alone for your salvation you are saved. You can go on to believe that a bowl of ice cream is your actual savior and Christ is still going to save you. It is Him that saves you.

I did already comment on that. I showed you that you are misinterpreting the aorist tense. But if you don't want to acknowledge what I said there is no point in visiting that subject again.

Could you please point me to where you addressed it? thank you.

 

[gr8grace3]

I agree. So why do many sects of OSAS say that if you think you have to have faith to the very end to be saved through that faith you are guilty of trying to earn your own salvation, as if faith is somehow among the works of the law that Paul said can not justify?

First of all I know that you attach works of "love" to your definition of faith, and really believe that one must have works. That aside, the aorist tense of believe In Acts 16:31 teaches and proves that at the moment of our freewill choice to believe we are saved. We are bought with a price and we are not our own any longer.

New American Standard Bible 1 Cor 6:20
For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

New Living Translation 1 Cor 6:19
Don't you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself,
English Standard Version
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
New American Standard Bible
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

And this brings us back to the OP. For one who does not realize that they are eternally saved By Christ. Their "good" works are fruitless because their motivation is to do the work that Christ already finished......their salvation.

For the one that learns and knows Grace, they have a chance to produce DIVINE good that glorifies the savior that they KNOW has and will save them.

 

[gr8grace3]

"We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." (Romans 3:28 NIV)

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace..." (Romans 5:1-2 NIV)

We need to go with what the Bible so plainly says in so many places, not what some sects of OSAS teach.

Ok,so I have my life cleaned up, I got rid of a my" bad" sins, I go to church, I give and help where help is needed, I love people and have faith in those works of love to save me. My faith justified me.

"We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." (Romans 3:28 NIV)

I am justified by my faith.

 

[chessman]

You still haven't provided a quotation by anyone other than yourself (an anti -OSAS person) saying that "... grace is a license to sin".

I'll say it again. When anyone says a believer does not have to be obedient to be saved on the day of wrath because salvation is so utterly not of works they are teaching that grace is a license to sin.

If there is such a thing as a forum 'sin', it is this. Simply restating your argument with no supporting thought or evidence is the same as not responding except one has used up space in a post to do that. It adds nothing to refuting or disproving an argument.

 

[chessman]

You can go on to believe that a bowl of ice cream is your actual savior and Christ is still going to save you

Even if it's Rocky Road ice cream?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Chessman, restating an argument because you missed it the first time is not a forum sin.

Huh?

Galatians 5:6 (LEB) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but faith working through love. ​

How does Gal 5:6 say what you just said within your argument; Works are the obligatory part of the faith?

Also, if you can, can you list out exactly which works are in fact obligatory?
1. Circumcision
2. Water Baptism
3. ???

It's right there in the passage. "...faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB).

The faith that justifies is the faith that works through love. But many in the church today insist that the 'faith' that does not work through love, but is disobedient, also justifies, because, as they say, salvation is so utterly not of works.

In regard to the OP, we work because that is what justifying faith does (see verse above), not just because there are rewards given for optional faithful, and productive, works completed in the kingdom of God (which there surely are). The faith that can not justify is the faith that does not work. But so many are sure the faith that is absent the signifying mark of faith (that is, works) is the faith that justifies. Not according to Paul.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Come on Jethro. I have never said that you are damned nor would I teach that someone is damned if they believe that.

Wait, wait. Are you saying, then, that you don't believe that thinking you are saved by what you do is a damnable sin? Paul does.

Surely you must realize that when you say non-OSASer's are trying to be saved by something other than Christ you are saying they are damned along with everybody else who is trying to be saved by something other than Christ.

If you have ever made the choice to believe (aorist tense)on the Lord Jesus Christ alone for your salvation you are saved.

And who is arguing with that? Everyone who has faith in Christ has God's promise of salvation and all that means in this life and the life to come.

You can go on to believe that a bowl of ice cream is your actual savior and Christ is still going to save you. It is Him that saves you.

No, Christ will not save anybody who no longer trusts in the blood to do that. Faith is the condition for salvation. Grace is not a license to be able to stop trusting in the blood for the forgiveness of sin but still being forgiven by that blood. Trust is how the blood is applied. Stop trusting and the blood is no longer applied to your account.

Could you please point me to where you addressed it? thank you.

I addressed it somewhere in forums past. Are you saying you have no recollection whatsoever of my rebuttal to your 'aorist tense' argument?