Salvation/Works Question...

[francisdesales]

OK: Lets try it this way for ones documentation against OSAS false theology. (as we believe)

1 Sam. 10
[5] After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy:
[6] And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
[7] And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.

[8] And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.

[9] And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

And that is ones Born Again start only! Rom. 8:14 is to follow!

And what happened to King Saul later? We see in 1 Sam. 16:14 'But the Spirit of the Lord DEPARTED FROM Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.' And if one read on?? They would find that God never again 'Led' him or communicated with him! See 1 Sam. 28:6 on.. for Saul's sad fate!

--Elijah

Yes, this is another example of someone led by the Spirit who later turned from the Lord and was abandoned. I think that the 2 Peter 2 citation more effectively makes the point, since it is post-Resurrection, post-Pentacost.

Regards

 

[Drew]

Not me.

Yes, Alabaster, it is you who deny this statement:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

You believe that Paul is mistaken in here asserting that eternal life is given based on "persistence in doing good".

Please own your position and deal with the fact that your position conflicts with what Paul says here.

 

[Drew]

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 NLT
13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

People will often use material in 1 Corinthians 13 to support the argument that there will be a “rewards†judgement – based on works – at which eternal life itself is not at stake. However, the text in question is specifically directed at church leaders and teachers. It is telling them that they will not lose their salvation if they bungle their responsibilities to build the church. But this hardly means that that they will not be judged according to good works and receive eternal life on that basis.

Here is the text, set in context:

For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? 5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

In verse 9, Paul clearly sets the "we" who are leaders against the "you" who are the members of the church. The argument goes on to say something about the "we" - the leaders. Paul has identified himself and Apollos as the "we" here. The "we" are not, repeat not, all believers. And, of course, the text goes to say something about this "we" - that if they do not build in the right manner, this "we" will still be saved.

This text nowhere addresses any person, in specific relation to the concluding statement about salvation, who is not charged with church leadership, or any task that is not a church leadership task.

The text is what it is - to generalize what Paul is saying is not proper exegesis. Paul is addressing a very specific issue – the responsibilities of church leaders and how they will not lose their salvation if they fail at those specific responsibilities. He is not making a general theological statement – that is something people “read inâ€.

 

[Elijah674]

People will often use material in 1 Corinthians 13 to support the argument that there will be a “rewards†judgement – based on works – at which eternal life itself is not at stake. However, the text in question is specifically directed at church leaders and teachers. It is telling them that they will not lose their salvation if they bungle their responsibilities to build the church. But this hardly means that that they will not be judged according to good works and receive eternal life on that basis.

Here is the text, set in context:

For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? 5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

In verse 9, Paul clearly sets the "we" who are leaders against the "you" who are the members of the church. The argument goes on to say something about the "we" - the leaders. Paul has identified himself and Apollos as the "we" here. The "we" are not, repeat not, all believers. And, of course, the text goes to say something about this "we" - that if they do not build in the right manner, this "we" will still be saved.

This text nowhere addresses any person, in specific relation to the concluding statement about salvation, who is not charged with church leadership, or any task that is not a church leadership task.

The text is what it is - to generalize what Paul is saying is not proper exegesis. Paul is addressing a very specific issue – the responsibilities of church leaders and how they will not lose their salvation if they fail at those specific responsibilities. He is not making a general theological statement – that is something people “read inâ€.

I think that you are 'rightfully' saying that the many 'true faithful' ministers that Work for Christ cannot be accountable if any of these ones later chooses to be lost, as long as they were faithful? Matt. 28:20
Yet, we can rest assured that hell will have more than their share on rhe other ones! Eze. 33:6-9 (+ all of the knowingly false teachers!)

--Elijah

 

[Drew]

I think that you are 'rightfully' saying that the many 'true faithful' ministers that Work for Christ cannot be accountable if any of these ones later chooses to be lost, as long as they were faithful? Matt. 28:20
Yet, we can rest assured that hell will have more than their share on rhe other ones! Eze. 33:6-9 (+ all of the knowingly false teachers!)

--Elijah

First, let me thank you for reading my post - with so many sub-threads going on, I appreciate your effort to read what I have to say.

As I hoped to communicate in my post, the 1 Corinthians texts is focused on teachers and leaders - not all Christians in general. Paul is saying that leaders will not lose their salvation if they fail in "building well". So this text does not sustain the usual reading - that works in general are not important for final salvation.

Again, I believe this is all about taking the text seriously in its fine-grained detail. When people take Romans 2:6-7:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

....and deny that Paul is saying that eternal life is granted according to "deeds", they are, whether they realize it or not, muting, censoring, and reworking Paul to make him say something that lines up with positions that such a person brings to the text.

We need to let Paul tell us what he wants to tell us.

 

[farouk]

James says that 'faith without works is dead'.

But the idea of earning salvation by the supposed merits of our good works is entirely different: Ephesians 2.8&9 says we are saved 'by grace', 'through faith', 'not of works, lest anyone should boast'.

 

[Drew]

James says that 'faith without works is dead'.

But the idea of earning salvation by the supposed merits of our good works is entirely different: Ephesians 2.8&9 says we are saved 'by grace', 'through faith', 'not of works, lest anyone should boast'.

I politely sugges that you misunderstand Ephesians 2:8-9. But you are certainly not alone - the overwhelming majority of evangelicals read this text without realizing that context shows that "works" here refer specifically to the works of the Law of Moses. Please consider the following argument:

Here is Ephesians 2:8-9 from the NASB:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that (Y)no one may boast.

In verse 9, Paul is denying the salvific power of doing the works of Law of Moses, and not the more general category of “good works”.

A point of method: It simply will not do to declare up front that Paul is talking about good works here – that begs the question. No, the fair-minded reader needs to ask which of the following views makes more sense given both the local context and the broader context of the whole letter:

1. The salvific power of doing good works is being denied;

2. The salvific power of doing the works of the Law of Moses (the Law of Moses) is being denied.

Explanation 2 is the one that makes sense in light of what Paul goes on to say in verse 11 and following as well as what he says in Romans 3, where he makes it clear that, in respect to good works, the Jew and the Gentile are in the same boat.

Proceeding to an examination of Ephesians 2:11 and following, Paul uses the "therefore" to show us that he is now going to fill out the implications of his denial of salvation by “works”

Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Paul is clearly now talking about the Jew-Gentile divide, and how the actions of Jesus have brought Jew and Gentile together. Doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, is what demarcates Jew from Gentile in terms of covenant membership and shuts the Gentile out of citizenship in Israel. Paul continues:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

How much more clear could Paul be? What has divided the Jew from the Gentile and been the barrier? Good works? Obviously not, both Jew and Gentile are on “the same side” of any good works barrier (first 20 or so verses of Romans 3). It is doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, that is the very thing that the Jew might otherwise boast in and which is now being declared to not be salvific.

Now having said all this, please note that I agree that works done by "moral self-effort" do not bring about salvation. But works produced by the indwelling Holy Spirit do.

 

[Proverbs3/5]

Now having said all this, please note that I agree that works done by "moral self-effort" do not bring about salvation. But works produced by the indwelling Holy Spirit do.

There is NO work (human) that can "bring about salvation" as you say. Only the finished work of Jesus Christ can "bring about salvation" .

 

[Drew]

There is NO work (human) that can "bring about salvation" as you say. Only the finished work of Jesus Christ can "bring about salvation" .

I agree with you to the extent that we agree that it is only the activity of the Holy Spirit that can produce work that "save". But it is quite clear from the following text that eternal life is granted on the basis of "good works":

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is a clear statement - eternal life is granted on the basis of "what people have done" in the sense of "persistence in doing good".

 

[Alabaster]

No one can do any good for lasting reward unless he has already experienced salvation. Salvation is the criteria---not works.

 

[jasoncran]

I agree with you to the extent that we agree that it is only the activity of the Holy Spirit that can produce work that "save". But it is quite clear from the following text that eternal life is granted on the basis of "good works":

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is a clear statement - eternal life is granted on the basis of "what people have done" in the sense of "persistence in doing good".

then if said person isnt perfect and dies in sin. ie last seconds of life has sinned are those works enough for him to make to heaven, if so why?
if not then we have to be perfect.

 

[Drew]

No one can do any good for lasting reward unless he has already experienced salvation. Salvation is the criteria---not works.

You continue to ignore this text:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Readers who have been following this thread will know that you have not successfully explained why Paul would make this statement if he did not believe that eternal life was granted to those who "persist in doing good".

That is, after all what this text actually says.

And you seem content to not deal with it.

 

[Drew]

then if said person isnt perfect and dies in sin. ie last seconds of life has sinned are those works enough for him to make to heaven, if so why?
if not then we have to be perfect.

No. There is no Biblical evidence that the believer needs to be perfect in order to pass the Romans 2 "judgement by works" at which eternal life is in the balance.

 

[jasoncran]

No. There is no Biblical evidence that the believer needs to be perfect in order to pass the Romans 2 "judgement by works" at which eternal life is in the balance.

well then God just ignores that sin? think about it.

i think what you could say that our faith has to have evidence of works to be real.

if not thats not what the bible says. faith without works is dead.

grace so that we can make it and the thief on the cross did no works and just believed. and by his belief he was imputed rightenousness.

looking at my life, theres no way i could change my sinful ways. sure i can do works but those are reaction to what god has done.

 

[francisdesales]

well then God just ignores that sin? think about it.

i think what you could say that our faith has to have evidence of works to be real.

if not thats not what the bible says. faith without works is dead.

grace so that we can make it and the thief on the cross did no works and just believed. and by his belief he was imputed rightenousness.

looking at my life, theres no way i could change my sinful ways. sure i can do works but those are reaction to what god has done.

I think too many people turn this into a legal issue - "perfection", "required", "must" "imputed justice"... when salvation deals primarily with a relationship with God.

Also, I note the usual lack of distinction between the several definitions of "salvation", which leads to people talking past each other.

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

I think too many people turn this into a legal issue - "perfection", "required", "must" "imputed justice"... when salvation deals primarily with a relationship with God.

Also, I note the usual lack of distinction between the several definitions of "salvation", which leads to people talking past each other.

Regards

i think the problem here is that those that believe in eternal security really dont understand what solo fide must entail. its faith that has works as evidence,not just faith.
it the latter then the devil is also saved!

we can do those things as we are transformed by the lord and bear fruits as evidence of that transformation.

and also a measure of grace must be given or none would make it.

 

[Alabaster]

You continue to ignore this text:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Readers who have been following this thread will know that you have not successfully explained why Paul would make this statement if he did not believe that eternal life was granted to those who "persist in doing good".

That is, after all what this text actually says.

And you seem content to not deal with it.

I have dealt with it ad infinitum. Paul doesn't believe what you are suggesting. I ignore only what you extrapolate from that verse, and people who read this thread know exactly why you are toe-to-toe with me. You are hoping against all hope that somehow our works will save us, but that is a lie.

Only people who put their faith in Jesus Christ and are living a transformed life can do the works of Christ which will result in God granting them eternal life.

Period.

 

[Alabaster]

No. There is no Biblical evidence that the believer needs to be perfect in order to pass the Romans 2 "judgement by works" at which eternal life is in the balance.

Once we are saved, our spirits are made perfect. We are already in.

 

[francisdesales]

Once we are saved, our spirits are made perfect. We are already in.

You are perfect??? Wow - so much for having the spirit of a child so as to enter the Kingdom of Heaven...

 

[WIP]

Drew, how do you explain the thief on the cross who, by his own admission, was undeserving of salvation and in fact was getting what he deserved, i.e., crucifixion but when he came to the realization that Jesus was the way, Jesus promised him life in paradise? Now, he certainly did not earn salvation by virtue of his good works.