Salvation/Works Question...

[Hitch]

You are perfect??? Wow - so much for having the spirit of a child so as to enter the Kingdom of Heaven...

I will venture Allie is speaking in the judicial sense.

 

[Proverbs3/5]

Please listen to this: Blue Letter Bible - Audio & Video Commentaries - Chuck Missler - Romans - [Vintage][Vintage]&SeriesOrder=3

I think it will help our understanding about Romans 2. Paul is not talking about justification here, he is talking about judgment. The Bible does not contradict itself, and neither did the Apostle Paul. He did not say that we have salvation by our works in one passage (Rom 2:6&7), and contradict himself in another by saying it is not of works (Eph 2: 8&9). The whole of Scripture teaches us that salvation is a gift, and we can't possibly do anything to earn it (works).

 

[Alabaster]

You are perfect??? Wow - so much for having the spirit of a child so as to enter the Kingdom of Heaven...

I am not perfect, but my born again spirit is holy and perfect. That is where Jesus resides by His Spirit and where He has provided all His promises to me that I need to appropriate in my soul and body.

My position in Christ is righteous, because I am covered by the blood of Christ.

We come to Him as a child, with humility. We receive His salvation and as we walk with Him we are transformed to His likeness and grow into full maturity in Him. We aren't supposed to stay as children.

 

[Alabaster]

Please listen to this: Blue Letter Bible - Audio & Video Commentaries - Chuck Missler - Romans - [Vintage][Vintage]&SeriesOrder=3

I think it will help our understanding about Romans 2. Paul is not talking about justification here, he is talking about judgment. The Bible does not contradict itself, and neither did the Apostle Paul. He did not say that we have salvation by our works in one passage (Rom 2:6&7), and contradict himself in another by saying it is not of works (Eph 2: 8&9). The whole of Scripture teaches us that salvation is a gift, and we can't possibly do anything to earn it (works).

Thanks.

 

[Proverbs3/5]

Thanks.

Thanks be to God!

 

[NarrowGate]

Eph 2:10 KJV - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1Ti 6:18 KJV - That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
2Ti 3:17 KJV - That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Tts 2:7 KJV - In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine [shewing] uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tts 3:8 KJV - [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Tts 3:14 KJV - And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
Hbr 10:24 KJV - And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Good works are a part of the Christian Walk! We have works ordained for us to do by God! They are not a requirnment for life but they increase your reward. Thats why Paul said this.

1Cr 9:24 NIV - Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
1Cr 9:25 NIV - Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.
1Cr 9:26 NIV - Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air.
1Cr 9:27 NIV - No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

What must we do for life? Jesus anwsered this very question!

Mat 19:16 NIV - Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
Mat 19:17 NIV - "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
Mat 19:18 NIV - "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,
Mat 19:19 NIV - honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "
Mat 19:20 NIV - "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
Mat 19:21 NIV - Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

If you want to enter life obey Gods commandments! Which ones? Jesus names a number of the 10. Then he tells that it is possible to have more than life and we can be perfect! How do we do this? By following Jesus! Doing good works!

Here is where the confusion comes in!

Gal 2:16 KJV - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I see so many people look at this and stop with the word, "works". But it is the works of the law. So what is it saying? Here are the, "works of the law"!

Hbr 9:9 KJV - Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hbr 9:10 KJV - [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.

Gal 2:16 is saying that sacrificing, washing the utensils and actions taken to make attonement for sins in the man made temple will not save you. It had been made obsolete because it could only clean the outside of a man. Only Jesus the high priest can make your inside clean.

People are confusing 2 different works.

 

[Drew]

You are hoping against all hope that somehow our works will save us, but that is a lie.Only people who put their faith in Jesus Christ and are living a transformed life can do the works of Christ which will result in God granting them eternal life.

What an outrageous falsehood. I repeatedly have to deal with people like you who misrepresent what I have posted.

Here, as before, you implicitly concede what I have been arguing all along - that it is only Christians - people who put their faith in Jesus Christ - who can do the works that, yes, will be the basis for the granting of eternal life, just as Paul says in Romans 2. And as you seem to be finally accepting above.

I have never - and you should know this - suggested that "our works" can save us. I have been crystal clear all along. It is only those with faith that are given the Holy Spirt, thereby enabled to good works that are salvific.

 

[Alabaster]

You most certainly have not dealt with the text. It says what it says - that eternal life is based on good works. Let the word of God be proclaimed:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I will keep calling you on this - Paul is saying that "X" is given according to "Y".

What is X, Alabaster?

And What is Y?

You obviously have a false notion of the Gospel. John 3:16 states it clearly.

 

[Drew]

Once we are saved, our spirits are made perfect. We are already in.

As I said, there is no Biblical evidence for such a position.

 

[Alabaster]

Only people who put their faith in Jesus Christ and are living a transformed life can do the works of Christ which will result in God granting them eternal life.

There it is.

 

[Alabaster]

As I said, there is no Biblical evidence for such a position.

It is completely biblical.

 

[Drew]

Drew, how do you explain the thief on the cross who, by his own admission, was undeserving of salvation and in fact was getting what he deserved, i.e., crucifixion but when he came to the realization that Jesus was the way, Jesus promised him life in paradise? Now, he certainly did not earn salvation by virtue of his good works.

Paul means what he says:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Now, I cannot read God's mind. But since Paul is a writer of inspired scripture, we must believe what he writes and conclude that, in his short time of being in a "faith" position, the "good thief" must have "persisted in doing good".

Paul means what he says:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[Drew]

It is completely biblical.

Then please provide any text you like to support your position and we will see what the actual texts say.

Give me any text at all that shows that, at the moment of faith "we are in".

I will start with a text that shows that Paul believes we are justified in the future:

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Oh, and look - once again, such justification is based on, yes, what we do.

 

[Drew]

You obviously have a false notion of the Gospel. John 3:16 states it clearly.

You are not answering the question - what is X and what is Y?

And nothing I have posted, in any sense whatsoever, contradicts John 3:16.

You repeatedly make assertions and claims without actually making the supporting case.

How about actually supporting your statements Biblically?

 

[Hitch]

Then please provide any text you like to support your position and we will see what the actual texts say.

Give me any text at all that shows that, at the moment of faith "we are in".

I will start with a text that shows that Paul believes we are justified in the future:

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Oh, and look - once again, such justification is based on, yes, what we do.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life

I think Paul's choice of words fits well . If one is accused , but not guilty, he is justified by the law, and he is justified when this is formally applied ,say in court. Its not this or that ,its both.

 

[Alabaster]

Then please provide any text you like to support your position and we will see what the actual texts say.

Give me any text at all that shows that, at the moment of faith "we are in".

I will start with a text that shows that Paul believes we are justified in the future:

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Oh, and look - once again, such justification is based on, yes, what we do.

John 3:16.

 

[Alabaster]

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life

I think Paul's choice of words fits well . If one is accused , but not guilty, he is justified by the law, and he is justified when this is formally applied ,say in court. Its not this or that ,its both.

Good one, too.

 

[Alabaster]

You are not answering the question - what is X and what is Y?

And nothing I have posted, in any sense whatsoever, contradicts John 3:16.

You repeatedly make assertions and claims without actually making the supporting case.

How about actually supporting your statements Biblically?

Eternal life is given to those who do good works....what is taught throughout scripture is that only those who are Christ's can do good. Paul knew this and so did his audience.

You MUST take that into consideration. It is obvious that people who do good and do not know Christ are not going to receive eternal life, but damnation.

 

[Drew]

I think Paul's choice of words fits well . If one is accused , but not guilty, he is justified by the law, and he is justified when this is formally applied ,say in court. Its not this or that ,its both.

I actually agree with you. While I have gotten into this at length, I am convinced that Paul's view of salvation has a "tense" structure - there is a sense in which we are saved at the point of faith, and there is also a sense at which we are saved at the coming judgement as described in Romans 2.

The real problem is when people approach the Bible with a model of salvation that requires the entire thing to collapse onto a single point in time. And for most evangelicals, that point of time is the moment a person professes faith.

The problem is that Paul simply cannot be read that way without doing violence to what he actually wrote. And yet many evangelicals screen out Romans 2:6-7 (which clearly connects the awarding of eternal life to the "good deeds" we have done). Just you watch - the most common strategy is to say that, in Romans 2, Paul is describing a path to salvation which is only hypothetically possible. Another strategy is to suggest that Christians will not be present at the judgement, and are saved on grounds other than the content of their "good deed". Neither of these strategies really work.

Again, watch the elaborate dance many will engage in to try to dimiss Romans 2.

 

[farouk]

John 3:16.

Alabaster:

Exactly.

It says: 'whosoever believeth'.