SALVATION

[glorydaz]

the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

It is with these words that Paul gives us the first treatment of salvation in his most famous book, the book that is held forth as embodying the famous “justification by faith alone†doctrine. And yet in the words above, Paul clearly describes a coming judgement based on good works, with eternal life in the balance.

What are we going to do with this text?

The best thing to do would be to put it in it's proper context, then add the whole Word of God.
The verse is exactly what you are afraid it might be. It's making it clear, in no uncertain terms, that man will be judged on his deeds unless he's covered by the blood of Christ. Without the blood, man will need to be perfect to attain the honor and eternal life he seeks, through good deeds or the keeping of the law. He's already told them they are without excuse for failing in even one point. I don't see why it's such a problem for you to see this verse in context.

 

[Drew]

The best thing to do would be to put it in it's proper context, then add the whole Word of God. The verse is exactly what you are afraid it might be. It's making it clear, in no uncertain terms, that man will be judged on his deeds unless he's covered by the blood of Christ.

You are begging the question. Paul nevers says anything like what you are saying here and I challenge you to show us any text at all, or combination of texts that states that "if you are covered with blood" you will be not be subject to a future judgement by works.

You may think that being covered by the blood excuses you from the coming judgement. You need to make the case that Paul or Jesus believes this, a challenging task indeed in light of Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5, not to mention sayings of Jesus - like the sheep and the goats teaching.

 

[glorydaz]

The best thing to do would be to put it in it's proper context, then add the whole Word of God. The verse is exactly what you are afraid it might be. It's making it clear, in no uncertain terms, that man will be judged on his deeds unless he's covered by the blood of Christ.

You are begging the question. Paul nevers says anything like what you are saying here and I challenge you to show us any text at all, or combination of texts that states that "if you are covered with blood" you will be not be subject to a future judgement by works.

You may think that being covered by the blood excuses you from the coming judgement. You need to make the case that Paul or Jesus believes this, a challenging task indeed in light of Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5, not to mention sayings of Jesus - like the sheep and the goats teaching.

Here's the type from the OT. The blood and the oil (Holy Spirit) sanctify.

And Moses took of the anointing oil, and of the blood which was upon the altar, and sprinkled it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon his sons' garments with him; and sanctified Aaron, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.

They won't bear the iniquity of their trespass.

And they shall not profane the holy things of the children of Israel, which they offer unto the LORD; Or suffer them to bear the iniquity of trespass, when they eat their holy things: for I the LORD do sanctify them.

The blood of the great High Priest sanctifies His own.

Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

This speaks directly to those in Rom. 2 who think to gain entry by a persistance in doing good or obeying the stone law.

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

We are washed, santified, justified and preserved.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[glorydaz]

There are books from which all will be judged...and there is the book of Life containing the names of those who have been sanctified, justified, and preserved.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; We are the living..written in the book of LIFE....not the dead.

and the books were opened: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

and another book was opened, which is the book of life:

and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Our names are written in heaven (Lamb's Book)..."just men made perfect."
We're made perfect by the work of Christ on the cross...not our own works.

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Confession is made unto salvation....and Jesus confesses us before the Father.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

 

[Drew]

It appears that some readers are caught in a mind set where they think that salvation is “either by the atonement†or it is by “good worksâ€. And since Paul is clear that, indeed, the blood suffices for salvation, these readers simply cannot accept the idea that ultimate salvation is based on good works.

Which is kind of odd, since Paul clearly states that ultimate salvation is indeed based on good works (Romans 2, 2 Corinthians 5). These readers then develop a hypothesis that Paul is speaking hypothetically when he talks about salvation by good works. The problem is that they have no actual case – it is all well and good to suggest that Paul is speaking hypothetically, but you need to provide an argument to this effect.

In any event, the problem is the initial mindset in which “salvation through faith in the atoning blood of Jesus†is seen as incompatible with “ultimate salvation by good worksâ€. But these are not, in fact, incompatible, at least not in Paul’s mind.

Paul’s view about the nature of justification and salvation is not all that complex. What is Romans 8 all about? It is all about how the Holy Spirit transforms the believer so that they will conformed to the image of Jesus and will live as the specific result of the way they act:

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, (W)He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [a]through His Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are (Z)putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Paul could not be more clear – it is the Spirit who gives life to the extent that it transforms how you live. Interesting, since this is yet another statement you need to deny (on top of Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5) if you think that we are not ultimately saved by good works.

Is this yet another statement that Paul does not intend us to take literally, gd?

We need to take everything Paul says seriously and let him tell us the mechanics of salvation.
And Paul’s view is this: When, in the present, a person is washed in atoning blood of Jesus, the Spirit is given and transforms that person into one who performs the kind of works that will enable that person to pass the future Romans 2 judgement. What does Paul say in Romans 8? That God will give life to those who walk in the Spirit by…….what? By walking according to the Spirit, and putting to death the deeds of the flesh

 

[glorydaz]

It appears that some readers are caught in a mind set where they think that salvation is “either by the atonement†or it is by “good worksâ€. And since Paul is clear that, indeed, the blood suffices for salvation, these readers simply cannot accept the idea that ultimate salvation is based on good works.

Which is kind of odd, since Paul clearly states that ultimate salvation is indeed based on good works (Romans 2, 2 Corinthians 5). These readers then develop a hypothesis that Paul is speaking hypothetically when he talks about salvation by good works. The problem is that they have no actual case – it is all well and good to suggest that Paul is speaking hypothetically, but you need to provide an argument to this effect.

In any event, the problem is the initial mindset in which “salvation through faith in the atoning blood of Jesus†is seen as incompatible with “ultimate salvation by good worksâ€. But these are not, in fact, incompatible, at least not in Paul’s mind.

Paul’s view about the nature of justification and salvation is not all that complex. What is Romans 8 all about? It is all about how the Holy Spirit transforms the believer so that they will conformed to the image of Jesus and will live as the specific result of the way they act:

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, (W)He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [a]through His Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are (Z)putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Paul could not be more clear – it is the Spirit who gives life to the extent that it transforms how you live. Interesting, since this is yet another statement you need to deny (on top of Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5) if you think that we are not ultimately saved by good works.

Is this yet another statement that Paul does not intend us to take literally, gd?

We need to take everything Paul says seriously and let him tell us the mechanics of salvation.
And Paul’s view is this: When, in the present, a person is washed in atoning blood of Jesus, the Spirit is given and transforms that person into one who performs the kind of works that will enable that person to pass the future Romans 2 judgement. What does Paul say in Romans 8? That God will give life to those who walk in the Spirit by…….what? By walking according to the Spirit, and putting to death the deeds of the flesh

Drew, you continue to insist Rom. 2 and 2 Cor. say something they do not. Paul does not, in any way, say ultimate salvation is based on good works. A believers WORK is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
All men will be judged on whether we believe Him or not. Those who do, will not be "judged" on what we have done in this body. There is no condemnation for the children of God. Jesus took our sin on the cross...all of it...past, present, and future...He was judged for us. We will be rewarded for the fruit produced by the Holy Spirit through us...our works of faith, but that does not affect our eternal life. We're eternal right now if we are His.

Please don't confuse the law of sin and death with the stone law or the natural law, and no way you can say it's something I won't take literally. I take what Paul says exactly how he means it. You just don't get what he's saying. I'm not the one who has questions on that portion of scripture...it's quite clear to me.

 

[Panin]

Does It? Okay, it sounded like the saints have to perservere to be saved.

Of course everyone has to persevere to be saved. God does not play game of favoritism. God is Just and Fair.

Jesus was not sent to give anyone free pass to sin, friend.

.

No one here is saying that He did??

Yes God is just, he hates sin, and cannot even look upon sin, there will be zero sin in heaven, and any one with any sins (pas or present) will not be allowed in. The blood of Christ is the only thing that covers our sins.

Consider the yearly passover, what was this all about?? It was the annual attonement fo sins FOR THE YEAR Thats right, this one sacrifice covered the sins of the previous year up until the next time of passover. How did that work? Well, clearly, one sacrifice for all sins past present and future for the year covered that whole family. (it had nothing to do with their conduct throughout the year, absoluetly nothing.

Do you think at the time of passover all the israelites where sinless holy idividuals? Of course not, the angel saw the blood and passed over that house, not because of the holy righteous deeds of those inside, but because of the blood on the walls. THATS ALL THAT SAVED THEM. THE BLOOD.

Christ achieved this for all eternity through covering a mans sins past present and future. WORKS have zilch, zero nadda, to do with salvation friend. You need to start a cult if you want to teach that rubbish.

Scratch that, heaps of cults have already been started that teach that - we dont need another one.

 

[shad]

No one here is saying that He did??

You certainly denying that Jesus followers should strive to be faithtul to Him with their work in your preaching.

Let see what the Scripture say about our work:

1 Peter 4:18-19 (New International Version)
18And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"[a]

19So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

Luke 13:24
He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Those are just a few warnings for Jesus' followers. Do you think we are being obedient to Jesus by preaching "your work will not save you"? I dont think so. By preaching your work will not save you and rebuking and mocking those who are striving to be faithful to Jesus is not the way to be faithful to Jesus. All Jesus' commandments are work.

 

[Panin]

No one here is saying that He did??

You certainly denying that Jesus followers should strive to be faithtul to Him with their work in your preaching.

Let see what the Scripture say about our work:

1 Peter 4:18-19 (New International Version)
18And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"[a]

19So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

Luke 13:24
He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Those are just a few warnings for Jesus' followers. Do you think we are being obedient to Jesus by preaching "your work will not save you"? I dont think so. By preaching your work will not save you and rebuking and mocking those who are striving to be faithful to Jesus is not the way to be faithful to Jesus. All Jesus' commandments are work.

No I am not saying that at all firend, dont twist things please IE LIE. I am saying that striving to be a good crhistian (which is our rightful sevice IE to be a living sacrifice) is not what saves a mans soul.

You and your mates on the other hand are saying that our works/behaviour is what saves us!! This is not Christianity, please go to another froum that is not Christian to preach this junk. We know better here.

 

[shad]

You and your mates on the other hand are saying that our works/behaviour is what saves us!! This is not Christianity, please go to another froum that is not Christian to preach this junk. We know better here.

Ok, if you dont think being faithful to Jesus does not save you, be my guest.

But you are preaching against Jesus, that's for sure like I already showed you the verses.

.

 

[Panin]

You and your mates on the other hand are saying that our works/behaviour is what saves us!! This is not Christianity, please go to another froum that is not Christian to preach this junk. We know better here.

Ok, if you dont think being faithful to Jesus does not save you, be my guest.

But you are preaching against Jesus, that's for sure like I already showed you the verses.

.

To say I am preaching against Jesus, is the biggest pile of baloney I have ever heard in my life. And I'm not exagerating.

 

[glorydaz]

You certainly denying that Jesus followers should strive to be faithtul to Him with their work in your preaching.

Jesus. All Jesus' commandments are work.

Our work is to believe in His power to work through us.
You believe in your power to do what Jesus wants to do through you.

Big difference, Shad. The very fact you feel you have to strive proves you haven't entered in the Sabbath rest of Jesus. You've been over in that sabbath thread, haven't you? We're to cease from our efforts and allow Him to work through us. No striving...just rest and trust. And before you accuse me of advocating sin, I'll warn you, that's a false charge. You must know how much God hates false accusers.

 

[glorydaz]

You and your mates on the other hand are saying that our works/behaviour is what saves us!! This is not Christianity, please go to another froum that is not Christian to preach this junk. We know better here.

Ok, if you dont think being faithful to Jesus does not save you, be my guest.

But you are preaching against Jesus, that's for sure like I already showed you the verses.

.

To say I am preaching against Jesus, is the biggest pile of baloney I have ever heard in my life. And I'm not exagerating.

I have to say...I've never seen so many people so worried about other people's sins, have you?
You'd think their job was keeping US on the straight and narrow instead of themselves. :biglaugh

 

[shad]

I have to say...I've never seen so many people so worried about other people's sins, have you?
You'd think their job was keeping US on the straight and narrow instead of themselves. :biglaugh

It does not bother you that people who are claiming to be Christians don't care about sinning? Christians are supposed to be shining out and glorifying God and Jesus.

.

 

[shad]

Big difference, Shad. The very fact you feel you have to strive proves you haven't entered in the Sabbath rest of Jesus. You've been over in that sabbath thread, haven't you? We're to cease from our efforts and allow Him to work through us. No striving...just rest and trust. And before you accuse me of advocating sin, I'll warn you, that's a false charge. You must know how much God hates false accusers.

Talk about a false accuser. I am not an SDA and I dont advocate Saturday-only-sabbath.

We are to cease from our effort? You are correcting Jesus? Jesus says to "make every effort to get into God's kingdom".

 

[glorydaz]

Big difference, Shad. The very fact you feel you have to strive proves you haven't entered in the Sabbath rest of Jesus. You've been over in that sabbath thread, haven't you? We're to cease from our efforts and allow Him to work through us. No striving...just rest and trust. And before you accuse me of advocating sin, I'll warn you, that's a false charge. You must know how much God hates false accusers.

Talk about a false accuser. I am not an SDA and I dont advocate Saturday-only-sabbath.

We are to cease from our effort? You are correcting Jesus? Jesus says to "make every effort to get into God's kingdom".

Chill out...I was speaking of Jesus being our Sabbath rest.
You've heard that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, right?
We enter into the Sabbath rest when we're saved.
Those who do not enter in are not saved.

A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God
1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' " And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."
6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts." 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Here you see a shadow of the Lord's coming to give us rest.

Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. 10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.

Jesus says His yoke is easy...His burden is light. You keep saying we have to strive, yet Jesus says He gives us rest.

Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[shad]

Glory,

You are misusing the scriptures to correct Jesus' commandments. You should use the Scripture to glorify Jesus, not free pass to sin.

Let me ask you this: Do you think you can get into God's kingdom without being holy and rightous?

.

 

[glorydaz]

I have to say...I've never seen so many people so worried about other people's sins, have you?
You'd think their job was keeping US on the straight and narrow instead of themselves. :biglaugh

It does not bother you that people who are claiming to be Christians don't care about sinning? Christians are supposed to be shining out and glorifying God and Jesus.

.

Of course it bothers me. It also bothers me when people say we have to work to earn our way into heaven, as if we went to the cross with Jesus. The work is His and the gift is free. If we are truly His we will give our utmost for His highest...that calls for surrender not striving. It calls for yeilding our will to Him so He can use us for His great glory. We're the body through which He works. Those people who don't care about sinning aren't His to begin with...they just think they are.

 

[glorydaz]

Glory,

You are misusing the scriptures to correct Jesus' commandments. You should use the Scripture to glorify Jesus, not free pass to sin.

Let me ask you this: Do you think you can get into God's kingdom without being holy and rightous?

.

I'm getting sick of hearing you spout that nonsense.
Are you so dense that you believe when I post scripture it's being "misused"?
You tell me how that is possible. The truth is...you don't listen to the Word of God because you like listening to your own so-called wisdom. Read the Word, and deny the Word as written...I dare you.

Talk about free pass for sin, you've given yourself a life-time pass of judging your brothers without having any proof whatsoever that you possess any fruit of your own. Take the moat from your own eye...it's blinding you to the truth of the scripture you're being presented.

 

[Panin]

I have to say...I've never seen so many people so worried about other people's sins, have you?
You'd think their job was keeping US on the straight and narrow instead of themselves. :biglaugh

It does not bother you that people who are claiming to be Christians don't care about sinning? Christians are supposed to be shining out and glorifying God and Jesus.

.

Show us one post in this thread where anyone has said they dont care about sinning?