francisdesales
Member
I didn't say we are bound to the Mosaic Law. However, we are still to follow the Law given to us by Christ.
Regards
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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I didn't say we are bound to the Mosaic Law. However, we are still to follow the Law given to us by Christ.
Regards
francisdesales
Member
That is not for you to decide, is it? And what does that have to do with the last 10 years of one's life of "good fruits"? How would you explain that? The work of the devil???
No, the problem is easily solved without such sophistry. One simply fell away, just as Jesus said could happen.
Regards
francisdesales
Member
LOL! Weren't you, or someone disguised as you, just recently telling me that God needed the blood of a perfect law follower - and to get that blood, that person must die??? Without this blood, God couldn't forgive mankind, couldn't save man from sin???
Either someone else is typing for you, or you are playing semantic games... God saves man through the work of Christ, culminating with His death on the cross, the perfect offering of self.
:eeeekkk
??? Where exactly does 2 Peter 2:20-21 come from again???
Again, someone else must be typing for you, because previously, you stated that we are saved by faith ALONE!
Faith without ANY fruit/works/deeds
You assume wrong. Of course God knows HOW. The point is not if He can, but if He will, based upon our response to Him.
Who cares about being justified before men? Why are you bringing this up and what does it have to do with 2 Peter 2???
Explain the difference...
You would think otherwise if you knew me ten years ago...
My response to your sophistry and total nonchalance towards Sacred Writ would have brought forth a much more "spirited" response...
Regards
francisdesales
Member
All I can say is you have very little understanding of Sacred Scriptures, because one of the main themes of the Bible is the requirement of loving others and God with all of our heart before we are allowed into the Kingdom of God. Making a "one time faith declaration" is only the beginning, it is not the "end". EVERYONE will be judged based upon what they do in this world, what makes you think that the elect will not stand before God and be measured? God is not a respecter of persons.
And people can be erased from the book of Life...
Regards
I notice the words underlined. You are looking at the context in a very wrong way. You are importing things that have nothing to do with the context (A universal restoration of mankind that nullifies the depravity of original sin by the HS--- No such concept anywhere in scriptures).
However, I do not see that "the work of the Law written on their heart" is the same thing as the Holy Spirit. In fact there is contextual evidence against that opinion. The very next phrase speaks of the "conscience" and I see no reason to make the two phrases totally distinct. We receive conscience in creation, why not "the work of the Law written on their hearts?"
Now I suspect you might think that this is the universal work of the HS in creation and it establishes free will and all that stuff. Of course this is why I keep making the charge against you of pelagianism or at least semi-pelagianism. You view the creation of all men in a way the circumvents original sin.
Just read verse 15 to see what that work written on the hearts accomplishes. Does this work bring about repentance? Ever!!! Not at all. The only thing it accomplishes to to "and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);" This work in creation only brings men to excuse themselves, or it works in their conscience to constantly accuse them. It does not provide the power to bring about change, or repentance.
While this law was written on the heart in creation, this work never leads men to "love the Lord thy God with all thine heart." That would be repentance! This work was marred in the fall. So then, the Gentiles are guilty of what was written in Romans 1.
I will admit that the Holy Spirit is actually mentioned in Romans 2, but not where you say. At the end of the Chapter, in verses 25-29, we read of the inward Jew having "heart circumcision." Of course this obviously goes back to Deuteronomy 30:6.
Deu 30:6 And Jehovah thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Obviously, this is a special work of the HS because in Deuteronomy 29:4 we read....
Deu 29:4 but Jehovah hath not given you a heart to know, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. So then, in Deuteronomy 29:4, those Jews had not the work of the HS in heart circumcision. God promised to circumcise the heart of the Jews at some future time. This all demonstrates a special work of the Holy Spirit. This is important because Romans 2:14 does not speak of a special work of the HS to a limited group of people.
But all this is in a way meaningless because Romans 2:7 and 10 do not have any work of the HS in view. In its context it is merely talking about the impartiality of God, nothing more. The context demands such an interpretation. I already mentioned verses 1-3 and verse 11. Romans 2:7 has nothing more in view then just simply a demonstration of the truth that God's judgment is impartial.
Grubal Muruch
Member
Those whose names are written in the "Book of Life" will not be judged except for whatever reward they may receive...Those names, in the "books" will be judged according to their works... And cast into the "lake of fire." By the way Fran, with all due respect, are you in the process of Loving God and your neighbor with ALL your heart, because, be your own admission, this is necessary in order for you to enter the kingdom??
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
If it is by Grace, it is no longer works !
Rom 11:6
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Now if it [Salvation] is by Grace [which it is], then it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise Grace would not be Grace. Simply put, if being of the Election of Grace vs 5, or Salvation by Grace is a result of anything done by us, be it, our Faith, our Repentance, water baptism, confessing, forsaking sin, or running around the block bare footed three times, or whatever, it is no longer by Grace, Period!
Paul states clearly " that if it be of works [anything done by us]" then it is no more of Grace, and if by Grace, then it is no more of works, so this eliminates the possibility of it being of both ! The old saying we hear, God has done His part, now its up to us to ours, thats nothing but a lie from hell, for scripture never states that nor implies that ! Salvation is not partly by Grace and partly by works [what we do]. The scripture is plain of which of the two opposites man is saved Eph 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 11:5-6
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Titus 3:5
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Now many False teachers, not of God, have perverted the word of Truth, and state that the grace is of God, but that the Faith is of ourselves by which one is saved, and they proclaim this even in light of the plain Truth of Eph 2:8, and so they make Faith a human condition to get saved, whereas scripture is abundantly clear that man's believing is by or through Grace Acts 18:27b
27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[on account of] grace:
It [believing] is as Salvation, a Gift of God that is given Phil 1:29
29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Paul says Two things have been given to some #1. To believe on Him, that is Christ and #2. To suffer for His sake ! These sufferings have been appointed by God 1 Thess 3:3
3That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
And so, believing was appointed as well for Christ's sake Acts 13:48
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
However overwhelmingly, False religion has bought into this deceptive lie, hook, line, and sinker, and so cometh to Pass 2 Thess 2:11,12,10
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Vs 10, they received not the Love of the Truth, which is Salvation by Grace [Election of Grace] not of works !
Rom 11:6
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Now if it [Salvation] is by Grace [which it is], then it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise Grace would not be Grace. Simply put, if being of the Election of Grace vs 5, or Salvation by Grace is a result of anything done by us, be it, our Faith, our Repentance, water baptism, confessing, forsaking sin, or running around the block bare footed three times, or whatever, it is no longer by Grace, Period!
Paul states clearly " that if it be of works [anything done by us]" then it is no more of Grace, and if by Grace, then it is no more of works, so this eliminates the possibility of it being of both ! The old saying we hear, God has done His part, now its up to us to ours, thats nothing but a lie from hell, for scripture never states that nor implies that ! Salvation is not partly by Grace and partly by works [what we do]. The scripture is plain of which of the two opposites man is saved Eph 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 11:5-6
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Titus 3:5
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Now many False teachers, not of God, have perverted the word of Truth, and state that the grace is of God, but that the Faith is of ourselves by which one is saved, and they proclaim this even in light of the plain Truth of Eph 2:8, and so they make Faith a human condition to get saved, whereas scripture is abundantly clear that man's believing is by or through Grace Acts 18:27b
27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[on account of] grace:
It [believing] is as Salvation, a Gift of God that is given Phil 1:29
29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Paul says Two things have been given to some #1. To believe on Him, that is Christ and #2. To suffer for His sake ! These sufferings have been appointed by God 1 Thess 3:3
3That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
And so, believing was appointed as well for Christ's sake Acts 13:48
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
However overwhelmingly, False religion has bought into this deceptive lie, hook, line, and sinker, and so cometh to Pass 2 Thess 2:11,12,10
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Vs 10, they received not the Love of the Truth, which is Salvation by Grace [Election of Grace] not of works !
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Not of works, lest any man should boast
The False teaching that Faith or believing or anything man does is a requirement or condition to get saved gives man an occasion to boast, and so contradicts Eph 2:9
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Now listen to me, this is important, if God has offered Grace and Salvation to all without exception, which the bible never states, and the condition be faith and repentance, and some comply to those requirements and get saved, and others reject or neglect them and consequently perish, then Eph 2:9 becomes void, simply because all those who met the requirements or conditions and got saved, now have opportunity to boast over those who rejected or neglected the conditions. After all, you had the same opportunity i had, but you blew it, and i did not they can boast ! Also this False concept and Teaching deprives the Cross Work of Christ as being the sole determiner as to who is saved and who perishes, the preaching of the cross and Him crucified has become second fidel to non effect, for it [ The Cross} saved no one in and of itself, man becomes his own saviour by what HE DID ! Christ's blood of His cross did not make the difference, but man's will did ! This describes salvation by works, and gives reason to boast !
The False teaching that Faith or believing or anything man does is a requirement or condition to get saved gives man an occasion to boast, and so contradicts Eph 2:9
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Now listen to me, this is important, if God has offered Grace and Salvation to all without exception, which the bible never states, and the condition be faith and repentance, and some comply to those requirements and get saved, and others reject or neglect them and consequently perish, then Eph 2:9 becomes void, simply because all those who met the requirements or conditions and got saved, now have opportunity to boast over those who rejected or neglected the conditions. After all, you had the same opportunity i had, but you blew it, and i did not they can boast ! Also this False concept and Teaching deprives the Cross Work of Christ as being the sole determiner as to who is saved and who perishes, the preaching of the cross and Him crucified has become second fidel to non effect, for it [ The Cross} saved no one in and of itself, man becomes his own saviour by what HE DID ! Christ's blood of His cross did not make the difference, but man's will did ! This describes salvation by works, and gives reason to boast !
francisdesales
Member
The Bible doesn't say that. You do... Your point makes little sense.
EVERYONE will be judged. For example, read the parable of the sheep and the goats. Do we not find EVERYONE being judged by God?
You will be weighed on the scale by God, as well. Your faith will be judged by how you act in life. Did you act in Christ or not?
The entire point of the necessity of having "saving faith" DEMANDS that one is judged!!! By your own admittance, there are people who will be determined to have been "never saved to begin with". Very well. A judgment is necessary to determine that, is it not?
Have you really given this point of view any thought?
I am a work in progress and will ultimately depend upon God's mercy to allow me entrance. NOTHING that I do here guarantees or earns me anything from God. I depend on His mercy, no matter what I do.
Unlike you, I don't have my mental "get out of hell free" card and can say "God, you owe me now..." I suppose it might make you feel good, but it is delusional.
Regards
francisdesales
Member
The context is very clear. The passage says what it says. And nowhere do I state anything about a universal restoration of mankind that nullifies original sin!!! That is heresy.
Are you a Pelagian, then?
This "writing of the Law" is not refering to Adam and Eve. The underlying point of the Fall was their desire to KNOW right from wrong - so they apparently did not have that experience written on their hearts...
In addition, the passage I cited states that such men SHOWED God's work. God's work "on the heart" is invisible, Mondar. Only by our works are we proving God's work. Thus, man was doing good - proving God's Work on the heart. Paul is making a statement that many Christians simply do not get (thinking that God IS partial...) - some pagans are better lovers of their fellow men than some Christians. It is a fact that cannot be explained away or doctrinalized away. Paul recognized God's work in their hearts by their good deeds. Thus, entering into eternal reward.
The Scriptures state clearly that people were doing good deeds as a result of "SOMETHING" writing a Law of God on their hearts. Those same were entering heaven...
You state it is not the Spirit. So either man does it himself, or there is ANOTHER Name by which man is saved, in your mind?
God is impartial. You got that right. Now, work it out to its logical conclusion.
Mankind has been redeemed, objectively. Subjectively, the Spirit of God can blow where HE wills and write a Law on a man's heart - AND give that man the ability to obey it (since we believe that only GOD can move a man to obey, it must be GOD doing the moving - unless you are now suggesting another force at work moving us to do good)
I am amazed that you have taken it this far and not the final step.
God's judgment is impartial regarding what, Mondar???
What is the end in view of this judgment? The Scriptures note the two ends, don't they?
Now, HOW would a Gentile (since that is what the impartiality demands!) enter eternal rewards without the Spirit of God acting???
Regards
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Grubal Muruch
Member
I'm sorry, but I didn't read all of your explanation due to the fact that your "premise" is totally wrong...Our faith is necessary in the salvation process...
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Its already established that you reject salvation by grace, and do promote salvation by works ! Which is against Christ..
Grubal Muruch
Member
The way for you to avoid "Hell" is to first, hear the "true" Salvation message, be convicted of your sin, place your faith in Christ, and be "born-again" by the work of the Holy Spirit...Otherwise there be no hope for you Fran, you will stand before Christ at the judgment and be judged according to your "works" and because your name is not written in the "book of life" you will be "cast" into the "lake of fire." That be your destiny for not trusting in Christ "alone" for your salvation...
Drew
Member
How can this be?mondar said:
Romans 2:6-7 may indeed involve notions of impartiality, especially in light of the context.
But it is not the bare assertion that judgement will be impartial - the text clearly embodies an assertion about the result of the judgement - that eternal life is at stake - and the criteria applied in the judgement - persistence in doing good.
Let's suppose I said this:
"The teacher will impartially award grades based on performance"
Is the only point here that the teacher is impartial?
Of course not. This statement also specifiies what is at stake in the judgement - grades -and the basis for getting a certain grade - performance.
Hello Drew,
Of course we have long disagreed on the context of Romans 2.
I think your illustration is fair. One of the things I would point out about your illustration above is that that the statement does not tell us if the teacher grades on the curve or a strait numerical score. Neither does it speak to the issue of how much instruction she intends to give her students to prepare for the exam, or what assistance she will give her students during the exam.
I am certainly not the one disputing the consequences of God's impartiality (IE eternal life or judgment). If God is impartial, certainly he reward righteousness. What I am disagreeing with is using the statements of Romans 2:7 as a method of salvation. The context is not a discourse on the method of salvation, it is a statement on God's impartiality.
francisdesales
Member
Are you telling me that I am not trusting in Christ?
Let's slow down and carefully consider what I am saying before you make 'judgments'...
What I am saying is that the Scriptures tell us that ALL men will be judged.
Was your faith a saving faith? That is a judgment, whether you like it or not. Even you agree that one must have "saving faith". Well, since we don't have "saving faith" meters on our chests, we will ultimately rely on God's decision whether you had the "proper saving faith" as per your lingo.
That's a judgment, my friend. ALL of us will stand before Christ. Those in Christ will be found worthy of heaven. But they still will be judged.
Regards
francisdesales
Member
That's inconsequential to Romans 2. It is taken for granted that it is GOD Who writes the Law (I hope you would agree) - and elsewhere, we learn that this is the ONLY way to be rewarded as such - to be moved by God's Spirit. The question is not how much God helps us/aids us/teaches us. The section speaks of God's impartiality in allowing Gentiles who have followed that Law have been/will be allowed into eternal life based upon how they respond as showing God's Work. Not only Jews are going to enter the Kingdom.
Surprise, for any proud Jews out there (reading Romans in the first century)!
The impartiality is based upon eternal life or death as determined by works (moved by the Spirit). Hard to miss that one...
Regards
Grubal Muruch
Member
Are you telling me that I am not trusting in Christ?
Let's slow down and carefully consider what I am saying before you make 'judgments'...
What I am saying is that the Scriptures tell us that ALL men will be judged.
Was your faith a saving faith? That is a judgment, whether you like it or not. Even you agree that one must have "saving faith". Well, since we don't have "saving faith" meters on our chests, we will ultimately rely on God's decision whether you had the "proper saving faith" as per your lingo.
That's a judgment, my friend. ALL of us will stand before Christ. Those in Christ will be found worthy of heaven. But they still will be judged.
Regards
Fran----]Are you telling me that I am not trusting in Christ?
Grubal----No. I'm telling you, according to your beliefs that, "you are not "Born-Again Spiritually." Christ said in, John 3:3---"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Fran----Let's slow down and carefully consider what I am saying before you make 'judgments'...
Grubal----Within the last two days or so, you said, " I was "water baptized" therefore, I am considered "born-again," as ALL Catholics are... Remember?? To be "born again" is a work of the Holy Spirit. And only transpires after hearing "the word of our salvation, the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the placing of our faith in Christ and Him alone. The Spirit then places us in the "body of Christ" and we are considered a "child of God" and a "born again Christian...
Fran---What I am saying is that the Scriptures tell us that ALL men will be judged.
Grubal----However, the "true believers" who placed their faith in Christ alone, and who's name is placed in the "Lambs Book of Life" will enter "life eternal" with God, whereas, those who choose "another" way other than faith, will be cast into the, "lake of fire." Fran, there will be "no one" in Hell because of their sin, they'll be there because, they didn't put their total faith in Christ and were not "born again" as Jesus said...
Fran----Was your faith a saving faith? That is a judgment, whether you like it or not. Even you agree that one must have "saving faith". Well, since we don't have "saving faith"
Grubal----I placed my faith in Christ as my Lord and Savior, then the Spirit gives us "Christ's faith" which is "perfect." But, we must first place our faith in Christ before we can be saved...Mark 9:24 gives us an example of this---And immediately the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help my unbelief. Mark 9:25 speaks of the result of Christ adding "His" faith. (When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.) Between the "two" faiths the boy was healed...
Fran---That's a judgment, my friend. ALL of us will stand before Christ. Those in Christ will be found worthy of heaven. But they still will be judged
Grubal----None is "worth" Heaven. Romans 3:10---"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" We as men "cannot" be worthy before a "just and righteous God who expects only "sinless perfection" in order to enter "eternal life." We can "only" enter, through Christ, who paid the price for our sins and resurrected to give us "new life" in Him...
Amen, Grubal.
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Nowhere. It's clear you see that. :nod
Paul has just begun to preach the Gospel message. First with a brief introduction, then with the general condition of mankind, and the inability of the law of works to save.......for the judgment comes. Paul then continues preaching the Gospel in chapter 3, and justification by faith in Christ as the only means by which man can be saved.