Very true...it's those who aren't disciplined that are the baaastards. I had to turn that into a baaaa or it might look something like this after it gets censored...#@%$#. ;)
Hebrews 12:8 said:
Guess not...cool.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Very true...it's those who aren't disciplined that are the baaastards. I had to turn that into a baaaa or it might look something like this after it gets censored...#@%$#. ;)
Guess not...cool.
Grubal Muruch
Member
Amen Glory!!!
Grubal Muruch
Member
Of whom are you trying to reach?? You almost appear as if to "evangelize." But I know from what you actually believe, that's not the case...Your speaking "only" to the elect...Of course from your "vantage" point, the "non-elect" are "not" comprehending what your trying to convey, so that leaves "only the elect" are going to benefit. So I would imagine your just attempting to, "speak to the choir?"
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
gm
No one, I am witnessing the Gospel, remember Jesus said that this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness, and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
No one, I am witnessing the Gospel, remember Jesus said that this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness, and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Drew
Member
First of all, there is no "again" here - you have not made any kind of case that I have incorrectly understood "according to" back in our discussion about Romans 2:6-7. In fact, the "dictionary" definition of "according to" actually strengthens the case that I really should not even need to make.
It is, with all duerespect, obvious that when Paul says "God will reward people according to what they have done" that this is a statement that it is the "deeds" of these people that is the basis on which such a reward is given.
If someone says "I will reward you according to what you have done", and then immediately offers a qualification in term of "persisting in doing good" there would be no debate among (competent) english speakers that there is indeed "causality" at work here - that the reward is based on the behaviour.
That is simply what the sentence means.
But, in this context, where people are committed to the idea that good works have no connection to final salvation, people need to deny the plain sense of this text.
Grubal Muruch
Member
Oh, so your goal is to lead others to Christ??? Or just the elect???
Drew
Member
In the broader corpus of all my posts, I have been clear beyond dispute that it is indeed the Holy Spirit that is the "agent" that enables us to "put to death the misdeeds of the body". So, lest anyone misrepresent me, I am not asserting that "saving good works" are the result of moral self-effort.
But, again, words mean what they mean. And when combined into sentences, the sentences mean what they mean.
So when Paul writes this:
So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for (Y)if you are living according to the flesh, you [f]must die; but if by the Spirit you are (Z)putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
....he is clearly allocating some measure of "responsibility" to the individual to let the Spirit do its work. That is what it means to have an obligation. Words mean what they mean!! To have an obligation is to be placed in a state where one needs to take some kind of action, if that action is just to "surrender" to the Spirit.
And Paul is also clear - if we do not fulfill that obligation our eternal fate is indeed at risk.
Drew
Member
And, frankly, if you had been reading my posts carefully, you would know that I have never denied any of this.
It is not me who denies the plain sense of Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8 - it is the "Spirit-generated good works" that are the criteria for final salvation.
I agree that once we get the Spirit, we have a "promised eternal status". But everything Paul writes must be honoured. In Romans 8, he admits to the possibility that one can "turn one's back" on the work of the Spirit and thereby forfeit the promise.
The very exegetical issue is this: When posters deny that "good works" are the "basis" or the "thing that God looks at" at the final judgement where eternal life is at stake, they are effectively saying "I choose to not accept the plain sense of some things Paul writes."
I politely challenge you to point to me anything that Paul writes that I deny.
Drew
Member
Well, then, please elaborate the nature of that connection.
For Paul the connection is clearly "causal", in the sense that "how we live" even if we agree that "how we live" is substantially determined by the gift of the Spirit, is the "criteria" or the metric, that determines our salvation.
Again, I suggest that cannot hold this position without bending Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8:12-13 entirely out of shape.
Each in their own way, these two texts clearly set "the works our lives manifest" in a specifically determining relationship to whether we get eternal life or not.
Grubal Muruch
Member
Drew, could it possibly be that your personally "misinterpreting" what Paul is saying... Considering your the, "only" person that sees it that way??
Drew
Member
I am not the only person seeing it this way. I am 99 % sure that francesdesales shares my view. Not to mention the fact that respected British theolgian NT Wright, arguably one of the top three living New Testament scholars, sees it the same way.
Please share with us a sentence of this form:
"A person "A" will be given a reward "B" according to what they have done"
....where it is not clear that criteria for getting the reward is, indeed, something that A has "done".
I will give an example from "my side" of this issue:
"My boss will give me a raise according to what I have done"
How can this possibly be read as "my boss will give me a raise on the basis of something other than what I have done"?
Grubal Muruch
Member
I have a question of you?? Do you consider yourself a "born again" Christian??
Drew
Member
Yes. Let me anticipate where you are going with this. You are going to say that once you're born again, your citizenship in heaven is assured. Well, that view, pleasant as it is to embrace, simply does not stand up to Biblical muster.
Again:
So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for (Y)if you are living according to the flesh, you [f]must die; but if by the Spirit you are (Z)putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Yes, we are given the Holy Spirit upon conversion. Yes, it is the Spirit that transforms us. But, unsettling as it is to those who want to be assured that their final destiny does not connect to their own willingness to let the Spirit do its work, we have the above text telling us that if, yes, if we do not let the Spirit transform us, we are indeed lost.
It would be, frankly, an insult to the intelligence of a person who understands concepts as used in the English language to suggest that the above statement from Paul is simply a description and not a prescription.
It is indeed the latter, conferring on us at least some responsibility for our final fate.
I have answered your question, please answer mine.
Last edited by a moderator:
francisdesales
Member
You are mistaken in your interpretation.
The Guarantee of inheritance is conditional upon several things. It is not dependent upon a "marking". Those who are found in Christ - known by obeying the law left to us by Christ - will be the ones to collect on that guarantee.
If you were correct, then Scriptures would be contradicting itself. Merely waving away one Scripture does not solve the problem.
You did not address this:
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Peter 2:20-21.
Regards
francisdesales
Member
francisdesales
Member
It is interesting that you don't. Let's review the section in question, since you skipped over some important parts of the two verses i posted. (what else is new...)
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Peter 2:20-21.
First, they had escaped the defilements of the world...
They just didn't read a book. They escaped sin. Now. How else do you propose that a man can escape sin and the defilements of the world? What false gospel are you preaching NOW???
Second, the passage says they "turn back from the holy commandment delivered". Another suggestion that they HAD converted.
Third, the passage says the last state is worse than the first - another suggestion that they had converted and had return to the VOMIT, as the ephemism continues.
Clearly, something had happened. They came to know Jesus. They escaped sin by being saved/redeemed. They fell away and returned to their former life of sin.
WHO HASN'T SEEN PEOPLE LIKE THIS IN THE WORLD?
Spare me the 'they were never saved to begin with'. That is sophistry. It basically states that NO ONE can know that they are saved - since NO ONE can know what will happen in their lives regarding their faith in 20 years - so maybe your very own comrades in faith will state the same about you...
In addition, it contradicts the very NOTION that one is saved by faith!!! You propose that now one must remain in good standing with God to verify your past act of faith - that is a works salvation if I ever heard of one...
Regards
francisdesales
Member
There is about a billion other Christians who consider it the same way.
Jews would not disagree.
Nor would Muslims.
Buddhists or Hindus have similar beliefs.
Oh, and Jesus considers it the same way. Have you ever read the parable of the Talents or the separation of the Sheep and Goats or the Wise and Foolish Virgins (all found in Matthew 25, for your reading pleasure...)
That leaves some sects of Christians who have misinterpreted the Word of God, even when the same Bible tells us explicitly that we will be judged on what we did. Apparently, they want to live their life any way they want AND live under the fiction that that life will have no bearing on how God will view them upon Judgment Day.
regards
Sinthesis, I agree with what you are saying, but I disagree that Romans 2 is about the results of salvation. As a matter of fact, I see much agreement in what we think. I agree that human works are not a part of justification. I agree that salvation has its results of personal righteousness. In fact I would probably agree with all the conclusions you are drawing, but would use different texts to defend what you are saying. You are suggesting Romans 2 is about the effects of salvation upon our personal righteousness. I would suggest that that is not in view at all. I would suggest that Romans 2:1-11 is a simple statement that God's judgment is impartial. There is nothing more in view. I hope to provide an context for Romans 2:6-7 here and you can respond if you wish.
THE CONTEXT:
The context has a contrast between the partiality of the judgment of the hypothetical Jew in Romans 2 and the impartiality of God's judgment.
It begins with the partiality of the Jewish judgment in verse 1....
1 Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judges another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things.
Notice how Paul begins with a complaint that the Jews assume that Gods judgment is partial to the Jew. You can see that more clearly in verse 3... "3 And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? " Verse 3 and verse 1 go very much together. The tell us that the Jew assumes wrongly that God's judgement is partial to the Jew, and that the can therefore judge the Gentiles and yet practice the same evil themselves. The context is going to make more statements on the impartial judgment of God (in contract to the assumed partiality of God for the Jew).
Verse 2 is also a part of verses 1 and 3 by way of contrast. The partiality of the Jewish people is contrasted with God's impartial judgment. God does not show favor to the Jew because he is a Jew, but he judges all impartially.
2 And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things.
The Jew and Gentile both practice the same things, and so Gods judgment is against all.
Now lets jump ahead to where Paul places bookends to the context. Paul is going to return to this theme of partiality in Romans 2:11 when he says:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
As a matter of fact, verses 1-3 and verse 11 are the book ends of the context to explain the verses in the middle.
This should give us a hint on how to read verse 6.
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
You are correct in thinking that verse 6 is not about the requirements for justification. However, neither should Verse 6 should not be seen as the results of salvation. The context is not about either topic, but it is about the impartiality of God. Read verse 6 in light of verses 1-3 and verse 11. It is saying the same thing. Obviously it is in the context of verses 1-3 and verse 11. All are statements that God does not judge the Jew with partiality (or the Greek/Gentile-- vs 10-11). God is then impartial because he rewards righteous works, and punishes sin. Certainly I would agree that God rewards righteousness and punishes sin, and a part of the reward is salvation, but the context is not saying it is the means of salvation or as you suggest, the results of salvation. In fact the word justification (major theme in Romans) does not occur in Romans 2. It is simply a statement that God is impartial and gives rewards to the righteous, and judgment to the reprobate..... nothing more.
Verse 7 and verse 10 are then simply statements on the righteousness end of that equation. ---- This part is important. I agree with you that it is not about justification by works. However, is it actually about the results of salvation?
------ Verses 7 and 10 are just illustrations of why Paul says God's judgment is impartial.
----- His judgment is impartial because he rewards righteousness.
----- Verse 7 is a statement about Gods impartiality and how he rewards righteousness. A part of the context to prove the impartiality of God would be that God would reward righteousness, Paul is saying nothing more. I agree with you that he is certainly not talking about a means of justification. The word justification is not in the context. But neither is he talking about the results of an accomplished salvation (although I agree with what you are saying, just not in this context).
On the other hand, verses 5, 8, and 9 are statement of judgment on the reprobate end of the equation of Pauls statement on partiality. What Paul is then saying, is this is what "impartiality" looks like.
Clearly Romans is saying that it is the blood and life of Jesus Christ that justifies...
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;
Works justification only leads to greater debt...
4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.
Only faith in Christ leads to justification. That is because Christs shed blood and his righteousness is counted as ours.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
Sinthesis, I know this is short. I hope you can figure out what I am saying. The beginning of Chapter 2 is a simple statement on God's impartiality, nothing more. I hope we can agree.
Last edited by a moderator:
Drew
Member
I agree. While there are indeed statement suggesting 'assurance of salvation' we also have statements clearly indicating the possibility of falling away.
The way to deal with this is not, as so many are doing, to selectively ignore certain texts and / or deform them beyond all reasonable recognition.
The correct approach, I suggest, is to accept that statements about a 'guaranteed inheritance' are to be understood within an implicit framework where any 'guarantees' that are made to us ultimately do not violate our freedom to turn our backs on that which is guaranteed to us.
The fact that this "qualification" is not mentioned at every turn does not mean it does not exist.
Grubal Muruch
Member
Revelation 20:12---"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
The dead mentioned in this verse are the, "spiritually dead." They were those who were not "born again Spiritually" (that doesn't mean they were water baptized) it means they were "Spiritually baptized" by the Holy Spirit. This happens after the believer places their faith in Christ,as their Lord and Savior...Water baptism does not wash away sin, only Christ's blood does that...So anyone trusting in "water baptism" are placing their faith in something other than the "shed blood of Christ." Mark 1:8, "I Indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." John the Baptist was sent to the "house of Israel" to baptize with water, but as we see from this verse, Christ would "baptize" with the Holy Ghost...