Saved by Grace not of works !

[Grubal Muruch]

Amen, Grubal.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

AMEN!!!

 

[glorydaz]

LOL! Weren't you, or someone disguised as you, just recently telling me that God needed the blood of a perfect law follower - and to get that blood, that person must die??? Without this blood, God couldn't forgive mankind, couldn't save man from sin???

Either someone else is typing for you, or you are playing semantic games... God saves man through the work of Christ, culminating with His death on the cross, the perfect offering of self.

I'm saying the same thing...in spite of what you may hear. The blood was required as a sacrifice for sin. That put sin out of the equation so that mankind could freely come to God. To be saved, we must take part in the resurrection of Christ - be born again and given a new heart no longer in rebellion against God.

Again, someone else must be typing for you, because previously, you stated that we are saved by faith ALONE!

Faith without ANY fruit/works/deeds

Once again you have altered what I've said. I'm sure it's innocently done, so let me try and say it as clearly as I can.

We aren't saved by our fruit. Fruit is evidence those around us can see....goodness, meekness, a kind and gentle spirit, etc. God doesn't need to see any evidence of our fruit because it's His. He's the one who produces it through His Spirit in us.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I'm saying the same thing...in spite of what you may hear. The blood was required as a sacrifice for sin. That put sin out of the equation so that mankind could freely come to God. To be saved, we must take part in the resurrection of Christ - be born again and given a new heart no longer in rebellion against God.




Once again you have altered what I've said. I'm sure it's innocently done, so let me try and say it as clearly as I can.

We aren't saved by our fruit. Fruit is evidence those around us can see....goodness, meekness, a kind and gentle spirit, etc. God doesn't need to see any evidence of our fruit because it's His. He's the one who produces it through His Spirit in us.

Truth in it's "highest" form...

 

[Sinthesis]

First of all, there is no "again" here - you have not made any kind of case that I have incorrectly understood "according to" back in our discussion about Romans 2:6-7. In fact, the "dictionary" definition of "according to" actually strengthens the case that I really should not even need to make.

It is, with all duerespect, obvious that when Paul says "God will reward people according to what they have done" that this is a statement that it is the "deeds" of these people that is the basis on which such a reward is given.

If someone says "I will reward you according to what you have done", and then immediately offers a qualification in term of "persisting in doing good" there would be no debate among (competent) english speakers that there is indeed "causality" at work here - that the reward is based on the behaviour.

That is simply what the sentence means.

But, in this context, where people are committed to the idea that good works have no connection to final salvation, people need to deny the plain sense of this text.

Strong's G2596 - kata - κατά
1) down from, through out
2) according to, toward, along

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 480
AV — according to 107, after 61, against 58, in 36, by 27, daily + 2250 15, as 11, misc 165

Notice how the word translated as "according to" can also be translated in several other ways. Investigate those other uses and, with those other meanings in mind, it is clear that "according to" in Rom 2:6-7 does not mean "either/or" as some sort of judgmental on/off switch for the granting of eternal life/death. Rather, "according to" implies a proportional range within which variable works correspond to some aspect of a variable reward. Where the dividing line is in that range between eternal life and death is up to the judgment of God. However, as our works are not the same, it should be no surprise that our eternity will not be the same. Our inheritance is correlated to works rather than ethnic status, but our only basis for salvation is God regardless of how we've lived our lives.

 

[Sinthesis]

In the broader corpus of all my posts, I have been clear beyond dispute that it is indeed the Holy Spirit that is the "agent" that enables us to "put to death the misdeeds of the body". So, lest anyone misrepresent me, I am not asserting that "saving good works" are the result of moral self-effort.

But, again, words mean what they mean. And when combined into sentences, the sentences mean what they mean.

So when Paul writes this:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for (Y)if you are living according to the flesh, you [f]must die; but if by the Spirit you are (Z)putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

....he is clearly allocating some measure of "responsibility" to the individual to let the Spirit do its work. That is what it means to have an obligation. Words mean what they mean!! To have an obligation is to be placed in a state where one needs to take some kind of action, if that action is just to "surrender" to the Spirit.

And Paul is also clear - if we do not fulfill that obligation our eternal fate is indeed at risk.

The responsibility of the individual is to surrender one's will to that of God as it is conveyed by the Holy Spirit. The obligation is one of obedience. This may or may not be an action ("do this", or "don't do this"), thus it is not actually a human work by which one is saved, but a relationship with God wherein one is submitted to God.

 

[Sinthesis]

And, frankly, if you had been reading my posts carefully, you would know that I have never denied any of this.

It is not me who denies the plain sense of Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8 - it is the "Spirit-generated good works" that are the criteria for final salvation.

I agree that once we get the Spirit, we have a "promised eternal status". But everything Paul writes must be honoured. In Romans 8, he admits to the possibility that one can "turn one's back" on the work of the Spirit and thereby forfeit the promise.

The very exegetical issue is this: When posters deny that "good works" are the "basis" or the "thing that God looks at" at the final judgement where eternal life is at stake, they are effectively saying "I choose to not accept the plain sense of some things Paul writes."

I politely challenge you to point to me anything that Paul writes that I deny.

Romans 2:6-7 is simply part of a long sentence which, together with the rest of the chapter, compares and contrasts, but ultimately equates, ethnic Jews with ethnic Gentiles.

God looks at good works, but they are not the basis for eternal life. God is the basis for our promised eternal life.

 

[Sinthesis]

Well, then, please elaborate the nature of that connection.

For Paul the connection is clearly "causal", in the sense that "how we live" even if we agree that "how we live" is substantially determined by the gift of the Spirit, is the "criteria" or the metric, that determines our salvation.

Nope, for Paul the connection is clearly "proportional", in the sense that the inheritance we are promised through our salvation will be in line with "how we live". God determines our salvation.

Again, I suggest that cannot hold this position without bending Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8:12-13 entirely out of shape.

Each in their own way, these two texts clearly set "the works our lives manifest" in a specifically determining relationship to whether we get eternal life or not.

Eternal salvation is a gift from God, and there is nothing you can do to "cause" God to give it to you.

 

[Sinthesis]

I am not the only person seeing it this way. I am 99 % sure that francesdesales shares my view. Not to mention the fact that respected British theolgian NT Wright, arguably one of the top three living New Testament scholars, sees it the same way.

Please share with us a sentence of this form:

"A person "A" will be given a reward "B" according to what they have done"

....where it is not clear that criteria for getting the reward is, indeed, something that A has "done".

I will give an example from "my side" of this issue:

"My boss will give me a raise according to what I have done"

How can this possibly be read as "my boss will give me a raise on the basis of something other than what I have done"?

Clearly the basis of your raise is the will of your boss. Any raise you may receive could and should surely correlate with your performance, but that is predicated upon you having a faithful and true boss in the first place. Get it?

 

[glorydaz]

The responsibility of the individual is to surrender one's will to that of God as it is conveyed by the Holy Spirit. The obligation is one of obedience. This may or may not be an action ("do this", or "don't do this"), thus it is not actually a human work by which one is saved, but a relationship with God wherein one is submitted to God.

Amen..."Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." James 4:17

It's often not what we do, but what we don't do. When the Lord says, GO, we go. When the Lord says, BE STILL, we're to be still. "The obligation is one of obedience".....very well put.

 

[mondar]

That's inconsequential to Romans 2.

If you missed what I said, you have not begun to understand anything about Romans 2.

It is taken for granted that it is GOD Who writes the Law (I hope you would agree) - and elsewhere, we learn that this is the ONLY way to be rewarded as such - to be moved by God's Spirit. The question is not how much God helps us/aids us/teaches us.

This question has everything to do with Romans 2. Francis, your not even beginning to address the issue. I did not answer the last post because I felt it was pretty bad, your not addressing my arguments nor the text of Romans 2.

The section speaks of God's impartiality in allowing Gentiles who have followed that Law have been/will be allowed into eternal life based upon how they respond as showing God's Work. Not only Jews are going to enter the Kingdom.

This seems to be your typical style to makes statements without any support from the text. Nether do you address any of the evidence from the text I mentioned.

Surprise, for any proud Jews out there (reading Romans in the first century)!



The impartiality is based upon eternal life or death as determined by works (moved by the Spirit). Hard to miss that one...

Regards

God's impartiality is based upon his own character. The eternal life is merely the result of his impartial character.
Francis, I feel a little frustrated with the low level of the conversation in your answers. I need you to raise the bar here a little bit.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Salvation is by Grace not of works or what a man does !

Salvation is by Grace not of works or what a man does ! This states plainly the scripture Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation is not of works, meaning not of or because of anything man does, PERIOD ! It's by the Grace of GOD ! Heb 2:9

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

All for whom Christ by the Grace of God tasted death for or in behalf of, are saved by His Death which includes His Resurrection Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Life or fruit comes out of His Death Jn 12:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

And so it's not of ourselves, and the Faith through which the Election are saved is the Faith of the Son of God, who Loved them and gave Himself for them Gal 2:20

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Its the Fruit of His Spirit Gal 5:22

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

And everyone Christ died for shall receive the Gift of the Spirit ! And so Faith, it cannot be of ourselves, it along with Salvation by Grace is the Gift of God. The Grace by which one is saved by was given to them in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9, and the Faith is of the Son of God, the Fruit of His Spirit by which they are born again ! So Christ is the Author of their Faith Heb 12:2

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That word author means :

the chief leader, prince

a) of Christ

2) one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer

The greek word for author is made up of Two root words one of which is:archē and it means:

that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

This without a shadow of doubt states that Christ as the Author of our Faith is the active cause of it ! So Faith is not of ourselves ! He begins it, and He it is who increases it Lk 17:5

5And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. To increase means to add to, to give more, its an acknowledgment to the First source or cause !

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Salvation is by Grace not of works or what a man does !

Salvation is by Grace not of works or what a man does ! This states plainly the scripture Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation is not of works, meaning not of or because of anything man does, PERIOD ! It's by the Grace of GOD ! Heb 2:9

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

All for whom Christ by the Grace of God tasted death for or in behalf of, are saved by His Death which includes His Resurrection Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Life or fruit comes out of His Death Jn 12:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

And so it's not of ourselves, and the Faith through which the Election are saved is the Faith of the Son of God, who Loved them and gave Himself for them Gal 2:20

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Its the Fruit of His Spirit Gal 5:22

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

And everyone Christ died for shall receive the Gift of the Spirit ! And so Faith, it cannot be of ourselves, it along with Salvation by Grace is the Gift of God. The Grace by which one is saved by was given to them in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9, and the Faith is of the Son of God, the Fruit of His Spirit by which they are born again ! So Christ is the Author of their Faith Heb 12:2

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That word author means :

the chief leader, prince

a) of Christ

2) one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer

The greek word for author is made up of Two root words one of which is:archē and it means:

that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

This without a shadow of doubt states that Christ as the Author of our Faith is the active cause of it ! So Faith is not of ourselves ! He begins it, and He it is who increases it Lk 17:5

5And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. To increase means to add to, to give more, its an acknowledgment to the First source or cause !

Without faith, it's impossible to please God remember?? Hebrews 11:6---"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

How do you get around that?? Without twisting logic and using "abstract reasoning??"

 

[savedbygrace57]

gm

Without faith, it's impossible to please God remember?? Hebrews 11:6---"

I have never denied that, and i have been showing where that Faith originates from, for its not of man.

Its also apparent you pay little attention to what I have posted..

 

[Grubal Muruch]

gm



I have never denied that, and i have been showing where that Faith originates from, for its not of man.

Its also apparent you pay little attention to what I have posted..

I just don't happen to agree with you on the issue of "faith..."

 

[glorydaz]

gm



I have never denied that, and i have been showing where that Faith originates from, for its not of man.

Its also apparent you pay little attention to what I have posted..

How, then, do you explain this verse Grubal presented? Does God do the "believing" for us? And does God seek Himself on our behalf?

Hebrews 11:6---"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

He that cometh must believe that He is......and that He rewards those who "diligently SEEK HIM."

 

[reba]

Seems some verses are to the unsaved or about the unsaved and others are the saved.

Romans 3 :10 is a picture of the unsaved

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God

Heb is speaking to/about the saved

Heb 11:6
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to Godmust believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them thatdiligently seek him."

 

[Grubal Muruch]

How, then, do you explain this verse Grubal presented? Does God do the "believing" for us? And does God seek Himself on our behalf?

Hebrews 11:6---"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

He that cometh must believe that He is......and that He rewards those who "diligently SEEK HIM."

Amen Glory and I might add, God is a "logical" creator. If He says that "faith" pleases Him, that means, the faith He is talking about comes from an individual believer. He's not "pleasing " Himself by creating "robot/puppets" who "must" please Him...He desires us to come to Him "freely" not because He, pulls a string or pushes a button...Remember, God IS logical...It's man who tries to "distort" the "Image and character of our creator."

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;590525]How, then, do you explain this verse Grubal presented? Does God do the "believing" for us? And does God seek Himself on our behalf?

I would answer yes. As Jesus says he who is of God hears God's words, sounds Logical to me.

Hebrews 11:6---"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

Yes and God has chosen the lowly rich in faith to put to naught the high things.

 

[francisdesales]

Grubal----No. I'm telling you, according to your beliefs that, "you are not "Born-Again Spiritually." Christ said in, John 3:3---"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Sorry, I am not following your logic here. I told you I was baptized by the Spirit in Baptism. Through that baptism, I was united to the death of Jesus Christ. As a result, I was born from above, born spiritually (not born again physically...). I fail to see how anything I said has made you come to your conclusion - EXCEPT that you do not care for my posts, so you must make personal attacks.

Fran---What I am saying is that the Scriptures tell us that ALL men will be judged.

Grubal----However, the "true believers" who placed their faith in Christ alone, and who's name is placed in the "Lambs Book of Life" will enter "life eternal" with God, whereas, those who choose "another" way other than faith, will be cast into the, "lake of fire."

What is a "true believer" and how do you know you WILL be one in the future???

That's my point. You do not know your future. YOU very well might be like on of those pastors who falters and commits adultery, for example. Do you really think that those pastors THOUGHT that that would happen to them? Don't you think THEY thought they were "saved forever", OSAS, etc???

But what happened?

Denying reality makes for poor theology, my friend.

Fran----Was your faith a saving faith? That is a judgment, whether you like it or not. Even you agree that one must have "saving faith". Well, since we don't have "saving faith"

Grubal----I placed my faith in Christ as my Lord and Savior, then the Spirit gives us "Christ's faith" which is "perfect."

What??? Where is that in Scriptures???

And you are ignoring my question. How do you know you have saving faith?

But, we must first place our faith in Christ before we can be saved...Mark 9:24 gives us an example of this---And immediately the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help my unbelief. Mark 9:25 speaks of the result of Christ adding "His" faith.

Christ is not "adding His faith". Christ is GOD, remember? Christ grants grace, not His own personal "faith". That's not something that can be "transfered", it is personal.

Helping someone with their faith is something that I can do myself. That is not me giving my faith to someone else...

Fran---That's a judgment, my friend. ALL of us will stand before Christ. Those in Christ will be found worthy of heaven. But they still will be judged

Grubal----None is "worth" Heaven.

In Christ, we are made worthy.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

I would answer yes. As Jesus says he who is of God hears God's words, sounds Logical to me.

Yes and God has chosen the lowly rich in faith to put to naught the high things.

It seems "logical" to you that God does the believing and the seeking for us? O....kay

You asked for an example....here's one. You say the Word says, "God has chosen the lowly rich in faith..."

The "foolish thing" spoken of here is the preaching of the Gospel. The weak things are the messengers of the Gospel. If you read the whole chapter, you might see it isn't talking about the "lowly rich in faith."

1 Corinthians 1:26-28 - "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:"