Saved by Grace not of works !

[glorydaz]

Amen Glory and I might add, God is a "logical" creator. If He says that "faith" pleases Him, that means, the faith He is talking about comes from an individual believer. He's not "pleasing " Himself by creating "robot/puppets" who "must" please Him...He desires us to come to Him "freely" not because He, pulls a string or pushes a button...Remember, God IS logical...It's man who tries to "distort" the "Image and character of our creator."

Sad but true. It's obvious man has his own faith...this is one of those verses that should leave none in doubt.

Hebrews 11:1-3 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

[childeye]

It seems "logical" to you that God does the believing and the seeking for us? O....kay

You asked for an example....here's one. You say the Word says, "God has chosen the lowly rich in faith..."

The "foolish thing" spoken of here is the preaching of the Gospel. The weak things are the messengers of the Gospel. If you read the whole chapter, you might see it isn't talking about the "lowly rich in faith."

1 Corinthians 1:26-28 - "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:"

So where is your example? The weak things are the believers of the Gospel for they are the called who are rich in faith. They are not mighty, or wise according to worldy wisdom. So to those who are high according to a worldly measure, the Gospel is foolishness.

So yes, God does seek His sheep and He calls them and He gathers them. Those who have been taught by God come to Christ. So yes the Love that is God in a man believes in the Christ. From Faith to faith.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Sorry, I am not following your logic here. I told you I was baptized by the Spirit in Baptism. Through that baptism, I was united to the death of Jesus Christ. As a result, I was born from above, born spiritually (not born again physically...). I fail to see how anything I said has made you come to your conclusion - EXCEPT that you do not care for my posts, so you must make personal attacks.



What is a "true believer" and how do you know you WILL be one in the future???

That's my point. You do not know your future. YOU very well might be like on of those pastors who falters and commits adultery, for example. Do you really think that those pastors THOUGHT that that would happen to them? Don't you think THEY thought they were "saved forever", OSAS, etc???

But what happened?

Denying reality makes for poor theology, my friend.



What??? Where is that in Scriptures???

And you are ignoring my question. How do you know you have saving faith?



Christ is not "adding His faith". Christ is GOD, remember? Christ grants grace, not His own personal "faith". That's not something that can be "transfered", it is personal.

Helping someone with their faith is something that I can do myself. That is not me giving my faith to someone else...



In Christ, we are made worthy.

Regards

Fran-----Sorry, I am not following your logic here. I told you I was baptized by the Spirit in Baptism. Through that baptism, I was united to the death of Jesus Christ. As a result, I was born from above, born spiritually (not born again physically...). I fail to see how anything I said has made you come to your conclusion - EXCEPT that you do not care for my posts, so you must make personal attacks.

Grubal-----Water Baptism was for the "House of Israel" not for the Gentiles...First came "the baptism of John" then "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" The Spirit baptism is the ONLY baptism for today. And without it you will not receive eternal life, but will be cast into the lake of fire as Revelation states...So it's very important that you understand the difference between water & Spirit baptism. No one is "born-again by "water baptism" If you depend on "water baptism" to save you, you'll have a "rude awakening at the judgment seat of Christ..." This is not a personal attack on you, it's a stern warning from the "word of God."

Fran----What is a "true believer" and how do you know you WILL be one in the future???

Grubal----A "true believer" is one who has heard the message of God's mercy and forgiveness through Christ's death and resurrection, been convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sinfulness and their need for Christ as their only Savior, and they have placed their faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior. Been "cleansed" of their sins by the work of the Holy Spirit and placed (by the Spirit) into the "body of Christ" as well as being "sealed" by the Spirit for eternity...I don't have to "wait" to find out I'm "born-again" I'm "born-again" now and forever...1 John 5:13----"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may "know" that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." Faith is the key that opens the door to your eternal life, without it you are "doomed."

Fran-----

 

[savedbygrace57]

How, then, do you explain this verse Grubal presented? Does God do the "believing" for us? And does God seek Himself on our behalf?

Hebrews 11:6---"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

He that cometh must believe that He is......and that He rewards those who "diligently SEEK HIM."

Seeking God is something that a man does. To believe on Christ is something man does, it is keeping a commandment 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Keeping God's commandments as well as Faith pleases God 1Jn 3:22

And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

All that is works. Thats the whole issue, that you and gm reject salvation by Grace, and promote Salvation by works, what a man does !

Salvation is not by works, what a man does Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Seeking God is something that a man does. To believe on Christ is something man does, it is keeping a commandment 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Keeping God's commandments as well as Faith pleases God 1Jn 3:22

And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

All that is works. Thats the whole issue, that you and gm reject salvation by Grace, and promote Salvation by works, what a man does !

Salvation is not by works, what a man does Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Did God give you the faith to believe?? If so, how do you KNOW it didn't come from you??

 

[glorydaz]

So where is your example? The weak things are the believers of the Gospel for they are the called who are rich in faith. They are not mighty, or wise according to worldy wisdom. So to those who are high according to a worldly measure, the Gospel is foolishness.

So yes, God does seek His sheep and He calls them and He gathers them. Those who have been taught by God come to Christ. So yes the Love that is God in a man believes in the Christ. From Faith to faith.

You're now trying to change the verse to read, "from love to faith".

That isn't what it says.

 

[childeye]

You're now trying to change the verse to read, "from love to faith".

That isn't what it says.

Yes, I think it says from Love to Love for that is the faith. In Love is what we are believing, is it not?

 

[glorydaz]

Seeking God is something that a man does. To believe on Christ is something man does, it is keeping a commandment 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Keeping God's commandments as well as Faith pleases God 1Jn 3:22

And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

All that is works. Thats the whole issue, that you and gm reject salvation by Grace, and promote Salvation by works, what a man does !

Salvation is not by works, what a man does Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yes, grace is the initial means of man's salvation. This grace that "bringeth salvation" and has appeared to all men is Jesus Christ. Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

Unfortunately, you can't seem to grasp the process by which that grace is applied. It's through faith in Jesus Christ. The reason you can't go past that is you've donkeyed down on the necessity for man to accept that gift. Man must avail himself of the gift. He must look when Christ is lifted up. He must eat from the bread of life. He must open the door when he hears the knock.

Since you can't tolerate the idea of all men being saved (universal salvation), or man having the ability to choose to serve God because that was God's plan, you're stuck. You're forced to conclude that even believing and trusting in God are works of man contrary to what you see in the Word. Basically, you're stuck.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, I think it says from Love to Love for that is the faith. In Love is what we are believing, is it not?

No, we're believing in the work Jesus did on the cross, and His resurrection afterwards.

 

[childeye]

No, we're believing in the work Jesus did on the cross, and His resurrection afterwards.

But his work was Love and it is the Eternal Spirit of Love that was the power of the resurrection. Hence Jesus said, I have the power to lay down my life so also do I have the power to pick it up again.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Yes, grace is the initial means of man's salvation. This grace that "bringeth salvation" and has appeared to all men is Jesus Christ. Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

Unfortunately, you can't seem to grasp the process by which that grace is applied. It's through faith in Jesus Christ. The reason you can't go past that is you've donkeyed down on the necessity for man to accept that gift. Man must avail himself of the gift. He must look when Christ is lifted up. He must eat from the bread of life. He must open the door when he hears the knock.

Since you can't tolerate the idea of all men being saved (universal salvation), or man having the ability to choose to serve God because that was God's plan, you're stuck. You're forced to conclude that even believing and trusting in God are works of man contrary to what you see in the Word. Basically, you're stuck.

You believe in a works Salvation, condemned by scripture. Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yes, grace is the initial means of man's salvation. This grace that "bringeth salvation" and has appeared to all men is Jesus Christ. Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

Unfortunately, you can't seem to grasp the process by which that grace is applied. It's through faith in Jesus Christ. The reason you can't go past that is you've donkeyed down on the necessity for man to accept that gift. Man must avail himself of the gift. He must look when Christ is lifted up. He must eat from the bread of life. He must open the door when he hears the knock.

Since you can't tolerate the idea of all men being saved (universal salvation), or man having the ability to choose to serve God because that was God's plan, you're stuck. You're forced to conclude that even believing and trusting in God are works of man contrary to what you see in the Word. Basically, you're stuck.

AMEN and AMEN...

 

[glorydaz]

You believe in a works Salvation, condemned by scripture. Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

First you must understand scripture before you can say it condemns.

You ignore the whole Word to stand on a verse taken out of context. Look at what Paul has already told the believers in Ephesus. "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," (eph. 1:13)

We hear the word of truth (gospel), we trust and believe. That's the way God set it up. God never believes for any man...and yet He requires it. God's grace gives us the power to believe. The power to believe may be present a long time before it is exercised. That's why God says it's His work that man believes. Without God's power, no man can believe. With it, any man can.

Put simply, what God requires of man to be saved cannot be discounted by you or anyone else. You preach to your own destruction when you deny God's commandment that we repent and believe. Like I said...You're stuck. You refuse to recant your statements even when the Word clearly lays out the way of salvation.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

First you must understand scripture before you can say it condemns.

You ignore the whole Word to stand on a verse taken out of context. Look at what Paul has already told the believers in Ephesus. "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," (eph. 1:13)

We hear the word of truth (gospel), we trust and believe. That's the way God set it up. God never believes for any man...and yet He requires it. God's grace gives us the power to believe. The power to believe may be present a long time before it is exercised. That's why God says it's His work that man believes. Without God's power, no man can believe. With it, any man can.

Put simply, what God requires of man to be saved cannot be discounted by you or anyone else. You preach to your own destruction when you deny God's commandment that we repent and believe. Like I said...You're stuck. You refuse to recant your statements even when the Word clearly lays out the way of salvation.

He does not "believe" the word as it is...

 

[savedbygrace57]

gd

First you must understand scripture before you can say it condemns.

For anyone to teach that people are saved by what they do, thats salvation by works, contrary to Salvation by Grace. That is condemned by scripture. Rom 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

gd



For anyone to teach that people are saved by what they do, thats salvation by works, contrary to Salvation by Grace. That is condemned by scripture. Rom 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Sorry my friend but you have misunderstood and misinterpreted the Scripture...

 

[glorydaz]

gd



For anyone to teach that people are saved by what they do, thats salvation by works, contrary to Salvation by Grace. That is condemned by scripture. Rom 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

(WHERE IS FAITH IN YOUR EQUATION?)

This has been posted over and over again, but here it is anyway...
Jesus said believing is a work of God. Are you saying Jesus is a liar and it's man's work?

John 6:29 - Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Grace supplies the power, the gospel supplies the message with power....both of those are God's work.

We are simply persuaded that God is right. You're attempting to adulterate the truth of the Word, and you need to stop. In fact, you should enter into His rest. All this striving is just the opposite of His Rest. Your grace isn't mixed with faith...therefore it does not profit you.

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

(WHERE IS FAITH IN YOUR EQUATION?)

This has been posted over and over again, but here it is anyway...
Jesus said believing is a work of God. Are you saying Jesus is a liar and it's man's work?

John 6:29 - Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Grace supplies the power, the gospel supplies the message with power....both of those are God's work.

We are simply persuaded that God is right. You're attempting to adulterate the truth of the Word, and you need to stop. In fact, you should enter into His rest. All this striving is just the opposite of His Rest. Your grace isn't mixed with faith...therefore it does not profit you.

He seeks not to go the path of truth...At his own peril...

 

[savedbygrace57]

gd

(WHERE IS FAITH IN YOUR EQUATION?)

It is obvious you do not pay attention, I have mentioned faith several times in this thread, now read post 111,117,120,and 211..

I keep posting also Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Now if you keep asking me about Faith, I have no other alternative but to conclude this discussion is way over your head. Now read the posts I gave you about faith in salvation, and be ready to explain what I said about it in detail, then I know at least you can grasp what I stated even if you disagree..



You quoted

Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

This proves above a shadow of doubt, you believe in salvation by works, by labour ! That is condemned by scripture !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Heb 11:6

Heb 11:6

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Now if one is to understand Heb 11:6 to be speaking of how Faith is something man does, diligently seeking God, and because man does that, God rewards that one with Salvation or Eternal Life, then that one believes in Salvation by works, something man does, which makes God a debtor of salvation to one who did something to earn it ! The word rewarder is the greek word misthapodotes and means:

one who pays wages, a rewarder

This concept is in total contradiction to Salvation by Grace, for it is written Rom 4:4

4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


They also believe that salvation is a reward, and not a Gift.

If a bank offers a reward to anyone providing information to catch one who has robbed that bank, and one provides that information, then they did something to earn the reward, it was not a Free Gift to them.

The scripture goes on to say that He [ God ] is rewarder[pays wages] to them who diligently seek Him..

The word diligently is not in the original, it is the word seek, which is a greek verb which means:

1. to seek out, search for
2. to seek out, i.e. investigate, scrutinise
3. to seek out for one's self, beg, crave
4. to demand back, require

It is also in the present tense, denoting continual action, seeking. This is a work, it reminds me of Paul's words in Rom 9:16

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

That word runneth is the greek word trecho and means:

of doctrine rapidly propagated
b) by a metaphor taken from runners in a race, to exert one's self, strive hard
c) to spend one's strength in performing or attaining something
d) word occurs in Greek writings denoting to incur extreme peril, which it requires the exertion of all one's effort to overcome

So those of you who want to apply Heb 11:6 to mean that one is saved because of their seeking, their diligence, their effort, their exertion [work] in seeking God, then you teach and believe salvation by the works of man, and not by the Grace of God, that is teaching a False Gospel, the bible is plain that Salvation is by Grace through Faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not a reward, not a wage paid, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.