Bible Study Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works #1

[Free]

The works that we are judged by include obedience to the Law/Torah, ie; we will be judged by our transgressions against the Ten Commandments; whether or not we moved our neighbors boundary marker; whether or not we had unlawful sexual relations, etc.

The apostles and first leaders of the church disagree with you (see Acts 15).

 

[jocor]

The apostles and first leaders of the church disagree with you (see Acts 15).

The issue there was salvation by works. I am referring to being judged by our works.

 

[Chopper]

Any works necessity based sights are never satisfied with the seemingly insignificant standard of a single cup of cold water work being sufficient to obtain a reward that can not be lost. This is never satisfactory to any work based camps that I'm aware of. It doesn't take long from there, if one buys into that story, that works have to be present, continual and progressive in order to "make it into heaven" to become burdened down in the constant press to keep obtaining salvation via works, or conversely worse, to not obtain by not continually doing works, which is the burden the position brings. Such are burdened by the fear of loss for their own hide, which is the motivator. If someone was dangling anyone over the potential of eternal torture they can extract just about anything from them and extort them by doing so. That is NOT a Heavenly work in my mind, but forced coercion under duress of imminent personal threat.

It is in this sense a fleshly understanding, the survival of the fittest, the same principle under which the flesh operates.

The works gospel, little g, also promotes incessant judging among people who think on this basis they are saved and others, not, and constant spiritual muscle flexing to prove they are saved, at least for that moment of braggadocio.

What really happens to such people is that they end up taking eternal damnation of others into their hearts, thinking that they know what is sufficient works or not for someone else, and false self justifications, which is the essence of hypocrisy. Or they end up in a constant state of DOUBT over their fate, which unfortunately many churches USE to burden their flocks to keep them coming back for more. Or the doubt eventually gets to them and they see the farce of the entire scheme of works based salvation and they leave the faith altogether in frustrations, often seeing the hypocrisy, vanity and futility of it all, and go back to the world where the same principles operate with standards that do not include their eternal damnation.

I fully understand what you're saying. A works based Salvation is not a biblical Salvation at all. BUT, in saying that, I'm not going to throw out works altogether, and if you are, I've got problems with that. Biblical Salvation will produce certain "works" that vary for different folk. Love that is generated by the Holy Spirit is number one IMO. Forgiveness is right alongside love. Personally, I see the fruit of the Spirit, coming out from a Christian as biblical works. What you're writing about is not biblical works but man generated.

 

[Chopper]

This is so true.

This is why the Lord, when He became flesh, poured His life into His disciples, that His life would be reproduced in them.

Then they would in turn, reproduce His Life in others.

To me, this is fulfilling the original command that was given to Adam and Eve, be fruitful and multiply... reproduce the image of God.

It was the "issue" or "flow' of His life, coming from His heart and flowing into His disciples, yielding the fruit of His life within them.

His disciples were His "fruit". The fruit of who He is, being reproduced in them.

It was evident by others that His disciples had been with Jesus.




JLB

What you say is very true. I hadn't thought of it just that way, thanks.

 

[Kidron]

Thanks.
It is true that we cannot earn salvation by doing good works. Unfortunately, far too many people have been taught that good works are, not only unnecessary, but "legalism" and a denial of the sufficiency of Jesus' finished work. In order to teach that, one has to deny the very words of Jesus and teach others to also deny His words. I shudder for such teachers.

jim

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Romans 4:5
"To him that WORKETH NOT but BELIEVETH on Him that JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY, his FAITH is counted as RIGHTEOUSNESS".
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Discipleship, which happens following conversion, is all about being a servant of the one who saved you.
Where you miss the mark, JP, is by continuing to teach that these discipleship works keep you saved.
Like so many who teach a works based salvation, you will write a book about redemption, but you always will continue to teach that redemption continuing is based on works and deeds and lifestyle.
This is why you teach that if a person is not obeying, or doing good works, then this is justification for them to end up in Hell.
So, once again, you are teaching a works based salvation, where a believer goes to hell if they are not obeying, or working, instead of teaching the truth, which is, that God's righteousness has been applied to a believer via their FAITH....and THIS is the reason that 'God accepts them, and the ONLY reason.
JP, God does not accept your works to accept you or keep you saved, He only accepts what JESUS has done for you, that has been applied to you.... as THAT and that alone, is what saves a soul and keeps a soul saved.......and never any kind of "works", as you keep teaching.
So, your teaching that works and only works maintains a person salvation and not the blood of Jesus and the righteousness of God given to you as what maintains salvation... is false and insults the very Grace of God.

Romans 4:4
"To him that WORKETH NOT but BELIEVETH on Him that JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY, his FAITH is counted as RIGHTEOUSNESS".

 

[Kidron]

I fully understand what you're saying. A works based Salvation is not a biblical Salvation at all. BUT, in saying that, I'm not going to throw out works altogether,.

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If you carefully read JP's posts and threads, he on one hand will talk about the grace of God, the Blood of Jesus, saving you, but then he reverts always to, works keeping you saved, INSTEAD of saying that what saved you, (Atonment) is what keeps you saved.
This is the typical "bait and switch", that everyone like JP, who believes in a works based salvation, will teach.
All you have to do is READ, and you'll note that he and those like him will always teach you can lose your salvation by not doing or obeying.
And this is WORKS, and that, is teaching that your salvation is based on WORKS, and not based on The Blood of Christ.
So, dont get lost in all the cut and pasting he is doing, and instead pay attention to what he keeps saying that KEEPS YOU SAVED, and that is where you find out what he really believes.

 

[JLB]

-
If you carefully read JP's posts and threads, he on one hand will talk about the grace of God, the Blood of Jesus, saving you, but then he reverts always to, works keeping you saved, INSTEAD of saying that what saved you, (Atonment) is what keeps you saved.
This is the typical "bait and switch", that everyone like JP, who believes in a works based salvation, will teach.
All you have to do is READ, and you'll note that he and those like him will always teach you can lose your salvation by not doing or obeying.
And this is WORKS, and that, is teaching that your salvation is based on WORKS, and not based on The Blood of Christ.
So, dont get lost in all the cut and pasting he is doing, and instead pay attention to what he keeps saying that KEEPS YOU SAVED, and that is where you find out what he really believes.

The work of believing is what saves and the work of believing is what continues to keep us saved.

JLB

 

[Kidron]

The work of believing is what saves and the work of believing is what continues to keep us saved.

JLB

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No,
Works do not keep you saved, and believing is not a work.
Absolutely not.
"Faith is counted as Righteousness." Romans 4
God takes your faith, and He give to you Salvation, as a completed born again status.
You are now a part of heaven while you are still living on earth.
He accepts your faith and givs you His Righteousness. = This is Salvation.
You are not keeping yourself saved, you are SAVED ALREADY....its finished.
There is no WORK you can do to stay saved, there is only the ATONEMENT that has made you to be established as RIGHTEOUS in God's eyes.
This Is Salvation.
Salvation, is GOD seeing you differently based on the blood of Christ redeeming you, purchasing you.
God no longer sees you as "that sinner" after you are saved, but rather He sees you now and forever as the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST.
That is how you are now ESTEEMED by GOD upon being saved, and this remains forever.

Salvation, is God creating a Way, through the sacrifice of Christ, whereby you are now given Christ's very righteousness, Christ's very sinless state of existence, that Christ is in heaven and was on earth....This very righteousness, has become what we are and who we are in GOD"s perspective,....its our holy state of existence, its our redeemed place "in Christ".
When God looks at a born again person, its as if He is looking at Jesus himself, as the saved person has now been given the same exact sinless RIGHTEOUSNESS that CHRIST IS...
This is what the blood of Christ establishes for you once it is applied to you, based on your faith.
This is why its called the 'GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS", AS ITS BEEN GIFTED TO A BELIEVER, and that is now WHAT we are and WHO we are........The believer has now become the very righteousness of Jesus Christ.
This is why your NEW TESTAMENT says you are "IN CHRIST"< > and "CHRIST IN YOU"....
This is why your bible says you have become "bone of His bones and flesh of His FLESH"...as that is a believer's STATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS before GOD.
The blood of Christ has established the born again as "ONE" with The Father and the Son according to your New Testament.
We are RIGHTEOUS as if we have never sinned, as this is what God's salvation does.....It recreates us to be RIGHTEOUS (born again).
So,, once we are made Righteous by the Blood of Christ through FAITH.......once this atonement has created us to be as SINLESS As CHRIST, then that is the end of it........That is your born again state of existence whereby you are now and forever "translated from the power of darkness into the kingdom of LIGHT"......and that is why you are "sealed unto the day of redemption"", and "seated in heavenly places IN CHRIST"" right this very second if you are born again.

There is no undoing this, as you dont maintain this, as you cant......See, You cant equal God's righteousness by your works, and that is why He created the plan of Salvation "by FAITH" to save you.
He created it as a way to recreate us (born again) to be as Sinless in HIS EYES, as Jesus, by giving us the very Righteousness of Christ.
That is what we have, that is what we have become, that is our right standing with God, once we are born again.
That is what you are given as the "Gift of Righteousness".......that is the Gift,... that is the Redemption plan THAT IS the ATONEMENT.

What God has done, is given us HIS very Righteousness, because Jesus took OUR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS AWAY ON THE CROSS.
"Jesus became sin who KNEW NO SIN", so that we can become "the righteousness of God IN CHRIST".
He became us, (our sin he bore) and we became Him., regarding eternal Sonship and regarding righteousness.
HE BECAME and TOOK our sin, and we became His very righteousness.
THAT IS SALVATION, and you cant undo it by your behavior, because the plan of redemption is not based on you, its based on the CROSS and what Jesus finished there for us.
SO, its a finished Salvation.... that is APPLIED TO US, and that is our ESTABLISHED POSITION as a Child of GOD = BORN AGAIN.
This is finished, and it cant ever be changed for any reason.
Romans 3:31-28

 

[JLB]

No,
Works do not keep you saved, and believing is not a work.

OK thanks for pointing that out.

I will adjust my bible, accordingly.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29

Got it, Thanks.


JLB

 

[Kidron]

The work of believing is what saves and the work of believing is what continues to keep us saved.

JLB

JLB,

think about this...

you state that "believing" saves.
But that is not True..
GOD SAVES., not believing.
"Believing"<> "Faith", is what God accepts to SAVE YOU......But its GOD who saves you, and not "believing".
All that faith does, is release the redemption of God on you and in you.,as being saved is what God does for you when you believe.
If there was no God, would believing do anything for you?
Muslims believe believe believe all day long in allah.....does this do anything for them?
Nope.
Nope.
Nope.
So, its not BELIEVING that saves you, but rather it is GOD who SAVED YOU, once and forever, if you are born again.
Believing RELEASES God's salvation, but it does not save you of itself, as you are trying to believe.

 

[jocor]

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ [Messiah], (by grace ye are saved;)
​

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:5, 8-9

Yahweh saves people by His grace. It is a gift. It is not something that a person can gift to himself by believing, but a gift that is given by Yahweh. Grace is received and faith/believing/works are the fruit.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
​

The answer is no, faith alone (believing alone) cannot save a person. Works alone cannot save either. However, both together CAN save, but when? I believe James is referring to when one's salvation becomes a reality after death (when one literally receives eternal life). Until then it is something received by faith, but will eventually be something that is literally received.

If we combine these two Biblical truths, we learn the following:

1) One's initial salvation is by grace through faith.
2) One's final, ultimate salvation, when we literally receive eternal life, is by grace, faith and works.
3) One can lose their salvation if they lose their faith and/or have no works.
​

This is why Paul told us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12). This is why Paul was concerned that some would believe in vain and others would receive the grace of God in vain (1Co 15:2; 2Co 6:1). These three verses speak of one's ultimate salvation, not one's initial salvation.

 

[Kidron]

3) One can lose their salvation if they lose their faith and/or have no works.
​

This is why Paul told us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12). This is why Paul was concerned that some would believe in vain and others would receive the grace of God in vain (1Co 15:2; 2Co 6:1). These three verses speak of one's ultimate salvation, not one's initial salvation.

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To believe in vain, means you heard, but didnt believe unto salvation.
its the ," some seeds feel upon stony ground".......no root, no actual saving faith, just hearing but not truly believing to the saving of the soul, is to "believe in vain".

Also, as you are not saved by faith, so by losing faith, ...this cant unsave you.
You are saved by GOD, using the Blood of Christ to redeem you, and only He could undo that, and He never will, as He will not undo the "new birth", as a birth cant be undone.

Romans 3:21-28.....4:3-7

 

[JLB]

Until then it is something received by faith, but will eventually be something that is literally received.

 

[Kidron]

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As you are not saved by faith, so then, by losing faith, ...this cant unsave you.
You are saved by GOD, using the Blood of Christ to redeem you, and only He could undo that, and He never will, as He will not undo the "new birth" blood Atonement, as a birth cant be undone and the Atonement will never be taken back.
"BIRTH" is a permanent condition, both physically and spiritually.

Ephesians 2:8

 

[JLB]

To believe in vain, means you heard, but didnt believe unto salvation.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Paul warns these Corinthians that what they believed in the past, will have been in vain, if they don't hold fast [present tense] to what was first preached to them.

...if you hold fast that word which I preached to you.

This is the condition, which is represented by the "if' clause.

The condition is to "hold fast" [present tense] the word which was "preached" [past tense] is required for the end result to be obtained, which is "saved".

Here is an example from everyday life:

The fish you caught for dinner, in which you will eat tonight, must be held onto and kept on a stringer, otherwise it will get away and you won't have any fish to eat for dinner, and the fish you caught this morning will not provide food for you, because you no longer have it when it's time to eat.


JLB

 

[JLB]

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As you are not saved by faith, so then, by losing faith, ...this cant unsave you.
You are saved by GOD, using the Blood of Christ to redeem you, and only He could undo that, and He never will, as He will not undo the "new birth" blood Atonement, as a birth cant be undone and the Atonement will never be taken back.
"BIRTH" is a permanent condition, both physically and spiritually.

Ephesians 2:8

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

The believing by which you were saved, will have been for nothing, if you don't hold fast that word, by which you were saved.

Believing for a while, does not save.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21

The enduring is a reference to "believing".

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Those who believe shall be saved.
Those who believe for a while, shall be saved for a while.

This is what Paul taught the Corinthians.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Those who believe for a while then no longer believe, are no longer saved, having fallen away from Him; there initial believing was in vain, and did not profit them in the end, since they did not endure to the end.


JLB

 

[Kidron]

unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Paul warns these Corinthians that what they believed in the past, will have been in vain, if they don't hold fast [present tense] to what was first preached to them.

.


JLB

Stop trusting in faith to save you, and start Trusting in God who Saved you.
Faith does not save you, ...God saved you........ONCE.
So, holding onto faith, does nothing, only being SAVED counts, and that is accomplished by God as soon as you believed and once accomplished cant be undone by how you think or feel or behave today, or next Friday.
Stop trusting in your faith, and start realizing what GOD has done for you, and let that be your truth, as there is no other, regarding being "saved".

Ephesians 2:8
Romans 3:21-28.....4:3-7

 

[JLB]

Stop trusting in faith to save you, and start Trusting in God who Saved you.
Faith does not save you, ...God saved you........ONCE.
So, holding onto faith, does nothing, only being SAVED counts, and that is accomplished by God as soon as you believed and once accomplished cant be undone by how you think or feel or behave today, or next Friday.
Stop trusting in your faith, and start realizing what GOD has done for you, and let that be your truth, as there is no other, regarding being "saved".

Ephesians 2:8
Romans 3:21-28.....4:3-7

If you can find where I have said that we are to trust in faith to save us, then you have a point.


If you can not find where I have said we are to trust in faith to save us, then that means you have "made up" this position of which I don't ascribe to, as if I did.

Fallacy: Red Herring A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:
1. Topic A is under discussion.
2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
3. Topic A is abandoned.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.


and

Fallacy: Straw Man The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:
1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.




JLB

 

[jocor]

-
To believe in vain, means you heard, but didnt believe unto salvation.
its the ," some seeds feel upon stony ground".......no root, no actual saving faith, just hearing but not truly believing to the saving of the soul, is to "believe in vain".

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
​

The Corinthians had a saving faith. They received the Gospel and were in right standing with Yahweh. Paul was warning them that their belief could be in vain if they forsook the Gospel/Yeshua.

Also, as you are not saved by faith, so by losing faith, ...this cant unsave you.
You are saved by GOD, using the Blood of Christ to redeem you, and only He could undo that, and He never will, as He will not undo the "new birth", as a birth cant be undone.

Romans 3:21-28.....4:3-7

Paul said we were "saved by grace through faith." He did not say we were "saved by grace while not having faith." Renounce Yeshua/lose faith/no salvation.

 

[Tony Hyman]

I wonder if these thoughts by William Barklay pertaining to the subject of "faith and deeds" as viewed by Paul and James might prove relevant and possibly helpful regarding a subject which even Martin Luther tangled with when he called The Book of James an "epistle of straw" in his preface to the New Testament of 1522.(Bainton. Here I Stand A Life of Martin Luther 259).Luther did however concede after a bit of thought "Faith,he wrote "as a living, restless thing .It cannot be inoperative.We are not saved by works;but if there be no works , there must be something amiss with faith."(Ibid)

On this rather difficult subject (from my view),I found this explanation by William Barclay quite helpful regarding the difference between James and Paul ."the main difference is this-they begin at different times in Christian life.Paul begins at the very beginning.He insists that no man can ever win or earn the forgiveness of God...ever put himself into a right relationship with God.That initial step must come from the free grace of God; a man can only accept the forgiveness which God offers him in Jesus Christ; he can only accept the offer of God that the way to God is open.That initial step must come solely from the action and initiative of God.James begins much later ...with the professing Christian, the man who already claims to have been forgiven...who already claims to be in this right relationship with God.Such a man , James rightly says, must live a new life for he is a new creature.He has been justified he must now go on to show that he is sanctified.And with that Paul would have entirely agreed...So the difference between James and Paul is a difference of the starting- point.Paul starts with the great basic fact of forgiveness of God which no man can earn or win or deserve;James starts with the professing Christian, and insists that unless a man proves his Christianity by his deeds he is not a Christian at all.We are not saved by deeds;we are saved for deeds(my emphasis)

...In point of fact James and Paul do not contradict each other ;they compliment each other; and the message of both is essential to the Christian faith in its fullest form."(Barklay.Letters of James and Peter.87).That then a general simplistic explanation after the author had pointed out specific Bible references by both Paul and James which are under discussion in this thread.