Bible Study Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works #1

[smaller]

I fully understand what you're saying. A works based Salvation is not a biblical Salvation at all. BUT, in saying that, I'm not going to throw out works altogether, and if you are, I've got problems with that.

There is a problem with linking our works, or more precisely, the supposed lack of same, which I do NOT believe exists for any believer, [that claim of lack of any "work" is false to begin with] to potential eternal damnation, then it is a works for salvation gospel.

Belief in Christ as our Savior is a work of God in Christ, IN us. Our works ended at that moment. It is no longer a position of "just us as individuals" in these equations. Technically speaking we died and Christ lives in us. (Col. 3:3).

His Work in us is entirely sufficient for the final cause of salvation.

 

[Jim Parker]

Both of the sheep and goats represent His servants.

I do not agree.

IMO There will be one resurrection and one judgement.

I believe basing a second judgment on an ecstatic, apocalyptic vision which John has does his best to describe in human language is an example of a foundational hermeneutical error on much of popular theology is based. It is, IMO, highly problematic to base doctrine on ecstatic, apocalyptic visions which are subject to extremely wide variations in interpretation. Such visions are, by definition, not able to be precisely understood and that renders them inappropriate material on which to found doctrine.

It is my opinion that the judgment described in Mat 25 and the so-called "White Throne Judgment" of Rev 20 are the same judgment.

Note that, at Rev 20:13, John reports, "all were judged by what they had done." That is the same as what John reported that Jesus has said at John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. It is also the same as what was reported at Mat 25; the saved and the condemned were judged by what they had done or had not done.
Also not that at verse 20:12, the "book of life" was opened and examined to see if any person's name was in it. That would be unnecessary if every one of the people being judged was not a believer.

jim

 

[smaller]

I do not agree.

IMO There will be one resurrection and one judgement.

I believe basing a second judgment on an ecstatic, apocalyptic vision which John has does his best to describe in human language is an example of a foundational hermeneutical error on much of popular theology is based. It is, IMO, highly problematic to base doctrine on ecstatic, apocalyptic visions which are subject to extremely wide variations in interpretation. Such visions are, by definition, not able to be precisely understood and that renders them inappropriate material on which to found doctrine.

If the intent is to discard, minimize or ignore, then that doesn't harmonize with this dictate:

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[Jim Parker]

The works that we are judged by include obedience to the Law/Torah, ie; we will be judged by our transgressions against the Ten Commandments; whether or not we moved our neighbors boundary marker; whether or not we had unlawful sexual relations, etc.

At mat 25, Jesus said we would be judged by whether or not were were merciful or, to put it another way, whether we loved God and our neighbor. Every other law is a footnote to those two commands.
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." (Mat 22:37-40 RSV)
God is merciful; His children are like him.
The acts of mercy done or left undone simply identify who are God's children and who are not.

The "books" that are opened at the judgment are the hearts of men. What is in your heart determines whose child you are and what is in each person's heart will be obvious to everyone at the judgment.

iakov the fool

 

[smaller]

A day of enlightenment.

For years I had read Matt. 25 about the sheep and the goats and their separation. I had always thought of myself as "only a sheep."

But this inevitably led to seeing that IF I didn't always do sheep works, THEN I was in fact doing goat works by NOT doing sheep works continually. It probably occured on the street, perhaps in not giving money to a begger who may have been in my mind, an alcoholic or drug addict who was only going to spend the money on booze or drugs. But nevertheless that larger thought was that in not doing sheep works, constantly, always, ONLY those works, that "I" was in fact doing goat works.

Can anyone really say they always and only do sheep works and this is ALL they ever do?

I doubt it. IF so they wouldn't be here posting on the internet.

I had to logically conclude that if I wasn't always, only and ever doing sheep works, I was in fact also doing goat works. It was the only logical, reasonable conclusion available, IF I was honest. And I then realized the value of honesty when reading the scriptures. Because for years I simply did not see, and insulated/exempted myself from "honest" reality.

 

[smaller]

Did Paul for example only, always and ever do sheep works? I think from his own mouth we can conclude otherwise:

Romans 7:
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

I didn't see these either, after reading these facts for years. Why didn't I see it? Because I had insulated, isolated and exempted myself from those realities too. Nay, I would never do anything like that! Or have I? Well, honesty tells both sides of the coin donut?

I found out Paul was an exceptionally HONEST MAN. And I started hearing Paul a LOT better when I saw myself honestly.

 

[Jim Parker]

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:25-29

JLB

Just FYI, I will be out for the next two weeks.

 

[Jim Parker]

but then he reverts always to, works keeping you saved, INSTEAD of saying that what saved you,

If you do not obey Jesus then He is not your Lord.
I cannot understand how that very simple concept is beyond your grasp.

 

[Jim Parker]

-
Romans 4:5
"To him that WORKETH NOT but BELIEVETH on Him that JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY, his FAITH is counted as RIGHTEOUSNESS".

Yes. If you only pick the verses that you like then that's what you come up with.
Many heresies are based on that kind of "proof-texting."
Your expertise in that field of endeavor is truly awe inspiring.

 

[Kidron]

Just FYI, I will be out for the next two weeks.

Take your bible with you.
It'll do you good.

 

[Kidron]

If you do not obey Jesus then He is not your Lord.
I cannot understand how that very simple concept is beyond your grasp.

Well, lets see....
Jesus wants me to trust in Him alone to save me......."check".
Jesus wants me to share the gospel and His love with everyone......."check".
Jesus wants me to shine the Light on those who would try to harm others by twisting scriptures and faking spirituality......"double check".

Ok, done deal, im good.
thx,

K
<><

 

[Jim Parker]

Take your bible with you.
It'll do you good.

I find that comment offensive and insulting.

 

[Kidron]

Yes. If you only pick the verses that you like then that's what you come up with.
Many heresies are based on that kind of "proof-texting."
Your expertise in that field of endeavor is truly awe inspiring.

Do those scriptures bother you?
You have issues with with mountains of scriptures in all of Paul's epistles that prove that Christ alone saves us and no works following this are necessary to stay saved?
Well, you know, what i do is this... I only give the Lord Jesus The Christ all the credit for what He did to save and keep anyone anyone saved who will trust Him, and that is why you and i dont agree about the Blood Atonement.

 

[Jim Parker]

Well, lets see....
Jesus wants me to trust in Him alone to save me......."check".
Jesus wants me to share the gospel and His love with everyone......."check".
Jesus wants me to shine the Light on those who would try to harm others by twisting scriptures and faking spirituality......"double check".

Ok, done deal, im good.
thx,

You left out, "Jesus want's me to obey him."

 

[Kidron]

I find that comment offensive and insulting.

All of us should study our bibles.
Me, and you, included.
This should not insult you.
It does not insult me.

 

[Kidron]

You left out, "Jesus want's me to obey him."

No, actually, i didnt leave that out.
I described what obeying Him, is all about.
And part of obeying Him, is to give Him all the credit for saving us, and none of the credit to "works".

 

[Chopper]

-
If you carefully read JP's posts and threads, he on one hand will talk about the grace of God, the Blood of Jesus, saving you, but then he reverts always to, works keeping you saved, INSTEAD of saying that what saved you, (Atonment) is what keeps you saved.
This is the typical "bait and switch", that everyone like JP, who believes in a works based salvation, will teach.
All you have to do is READ, and you'll note that he and those like him will always teach you can lose your salvation by not doing or obeying.
And this is WORKS, and that, is teaching that your salvation is based on WORKS, and not based on The Blood of Christ.
So, dont get lost in all the cut and pasting he is doing, and instead pay attention to what he keeps saying that KEEPS YOU SAVED, and that is where you find out what he really believes.

When I say that I'm not going to

-
If you carefully read JP's posts and threads, he on one hand will talk about the grace of God, the Blood of Jesus, saving you, but then he reverts always to, works keeping you saved, INSTEAD of saying that what saved you, (Atonment) is what keeps you saved.
This is the typical "bait and switch", that everyone like JP, who believes in a works based salvation, will teach.
All you have to do is READ, and you'll note that he and those like him will always teach you can lose your salvation by not doing or obeying.
And this is WORKS, and that, is teaching that your salvation is based on WORKS, and not based on The Blood of Christ.
So, dont get lost in all the cut and pasting he is doing, and instead pay attention to what he keeps saying that KEEPS YOU SAVED, and that is where you find out what he really believes.

When I said I'm not going to throw out altogether works, I meant that works are not before Salvation, but certainly are after Salvation as proof that biblical Salvation has occurred. "Faith without works is dead". Notice this verse....
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

 

[Chopper]

There is a problem with linking our works, or more precisely, the supposed lack of same, which I do NOT believe exists for any believer, [that claim of lack of any "work" is false to begin with] to potential eternal damnation, then it is a works for salvation gospel.

Belief in Christ as our Savior is a work of God in Christ, IN us. Our works ended at that moment. It is no longer a position of "just us as individuals" in these equations. Technically speaking we died and Christ lives in us. (Col. 3:3).

His Work in us is entirely sufficient for the final cause of salvation.

My position has always been, and still is, Faith without works is dead. James 2:14 and on, is what I call biblical Salvation. A faith that does not produce works, is a false faith.

 

[smaller]

My position has always been, and still is, Faith without works is dead. James 2:14 and on, is what I call biblical Salvation. A faith that does not produce works, is a false faith.

See the singular cold cup of water reward posted earlier.

I doubt that there is a single believer who has not done "a" good work, singular, period.

The notion itself is somewhat of a strawman to begin with.

 

[Kidron]

When I say that I'm not going to


When I said I'm not going to throw out altogether works, I meant that works are not before Salvation, but certainly are after Salvation as proof that biblical Salvation has occurred. "Faith without works is dead". Notice this verse....
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

-

A teaching of a demon would be to try to "spin" the completion of the finished work of Jesus regarding salvation, by ither adding to the Cross something to do to be or stay saved, or suggesting or implying or that the Cross is not the entire means that God offers to save us and keep us saved.

And regarding works we are to do..
Certainly we are to do the works of a disciple of Christ, daily, while understanding that these works play no part in our eternal redemption, as only the Blood Atonement ALONE is capable of restoring our relationship to Father God.
Works, like Water Baptism follow the New Birth, but they play no part in the actual redemptive process, because as a believer we only have redemption through Jesus's blood, (the forgiveness of sins), in accordance with the riches of God's grace.