Bible Study Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works #1

[Chopper]

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Romans 4:5
"To him that WORKETH NOT but BELIEVETH on Him that JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY, his FAITH is counted as RIGHTEOUSNESS".
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Discipleship, which happens following conversion, is all about being a servant of the one who saved you.
Where you miss the mark, JP, is by continuing to teach that these discipleship works keep you saved.
Like so many who teach a works based salvation, you will write a book about redemption, but you always will continue to teach that redemption continuing is based on works and deeds and lifestyle.
This is why you teach that if a person is not obeying, or doing good works, then this is justification for them to end up in Hell.
So, once again, you are teaching a works based salvation, where a believer goes to hell if they are not obeying, or working, instead of teaching the truth, which is, that God's righteousness has been applied to a believer via their FAITH....and THIS is the reason that 'God accepts them, and the ONLY reason.
JP, God does not accept your works to accept you or keep you saved, He only accepts what JESUS has done for you, that has been applied to you.... as THAT and that alone, is what saves a soul and keeps a soul saved.......and never any kind of "works", as you keep teaching.
So, your teaching that works and only works maintains a person salvation and not the blood of Jesus and the righteousness of God given to you as what maintains salvation... is false and insults the very Grace of God.

Romans 4:4
"To him that WORKETH NOT but BELIEVETH on Him that JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY, his FAITH is counted as RIGHTEOUSNESS".

A works based Salvation is works are necessary in order to be saved, which is false. Romans 4:4 is speaking about that. Romans 4:4 is not taking away works AFTER Salvation. Faith without works is dead. If a person claims to be saved but has no works to prove it and doesn't plan to have any, just trust in a confession, is on a greased slide to hell.

 

[Chopper]

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A teaching of a demon would be to try to "spin" the completion of the finished work of Jesus regarding salvation, by ither adding to the Cross something to do to be or stay saved, or suggesting or implying or that the Cross is not the entire means that God offers to save us and keep us saved.

And regarding works we are to do..
Certainly we are to do the works of a disciple of Christ, daily, while understanding that these works play no part in our eternal redemption, as only the Blood Atonement ALONE is capable of restoring our relationship to Father God.
Works, like Water Baptism follow the New Birth, but they play no part in the actual redemptive process, because as a believer we only have redemption through Jesus's blood, (the forgiveness of sins), in accordance with the riches of God's grace.

You are right!! And that pure faith in Christ will produce good works. If not, it's no good, it's dead.

 

[JLB]

I do not agree.

IMO There will be one resurrection and one judgement.

I believe basing a second judgment on an ecstatic, apocalyptic vision which John has does his best to describe in human language is an example of a foundational hermeneutical error on much of popular theology is based. It is, IMO, highly problematic to base doctrine on ecstatic, apocalyptic visions which are subject to extremely wide variations in interpretation. Such visions are, by definition, not able to be precisely understood and that renders them inappropriate material on which to found doctrine.

It is my opinion that the judgment described in Mat 25 and the so-called "White Throne Judgment" of Rev 20 are the same judgment.

Note that, at Rev 20:13, John reports, "all were judged by what they had done." That is the same as what John reported that Jesus has said at John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. It is also the same as what was reported at Mat 25; the saved and the condemned were judged by what they had done or had not done.
Also not that at verse 20:12, the "book of life" was opened and examined to see if any person's name was in it. That would be unnecessary if every one of the people being judged was not a believer.

jim

Can you start with addressing what I have already stated about His "servants" being the context of His teaching in the Olivet Discourse, starting at Matthew 24:45 about "His servants" and the judgement He will judge them by when He returns.



45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking forhim and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51


Notice the language of the servant who became evil, after he had been given to be as a ruler over the house of the king:

My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites.



Chapter 25 -

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country,who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done,good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done,good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’ 26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:14-34


The context of the Lord's Discourse is about His servants that will be judged when He returns.

Both the sheep and goats and His sheep and goats, which is to say His servants, some of which were obedient and some of which were disobedient, just like all the examples Jesus gave in the preceding teachings, starting back in Matthew 24:45.

Please examine the language that is exchanged between the goats and Jesus:

“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:44-46

• The goats knew Him to be Lord.

• Jesus expected them to serve Him, by serving His people.

The Point: Both the sheep and the goats were His servants, and not the world of unbelievers.



JLB

 

[JLB]

A works based Salvation is works are necessary in order to be saved, which is false. Romans 4:4 is speaking about that. Romans 4:4 is not taking away works AFTER Salvation. Faith without works is dead. If a person claims to be saved but has no works to prove it and doesn't plan to have any, just trust in a confession, is on a greased slide to hell.

You are right!! And that pure faith in Christ will produce good works. If not, it's no good, it's dead.

Could we discuss the difference between the obedience of faith in response to the Gospel, in order to become a child of God vs good works that are produced from being a child of God.

• One is obeying the Gospel in order to be saved: ie; translated out of the domain of darkness into the kingdom of God.

• The other is the obedience to be led by the Spirit of God; ie; walking in the Spirit, as opposed to walking in the flesh.

JLB

 

[Chopper]

Could we discuss the difference between the obedience of faith in response to the Gospel, in order to become a child of God vs good works that are produced from being a child of God.

• One is obeying the Gospel in order to be saved: ie; translated out of the domain of darkness into the kingdom of God.

• The other is the obedience to be led by the Spirit of God; ie; walking in the Spirit, as opposed to walking in the flesh.

JLB

Correct me if I'm wrong. It seems to me that you see a "work" of obedience, when faced with God's gift of faith to believe the Gospel.

 

[JLB]

Correct me if I'm wrong. It seems to me that you see a "work" of obedience, when faced with God's gift of faith to believe the Gospel.

Yes sir, I see obedience as the "work" or "effort" that faith requires in our initial salvation.

Not the works of the law.
Not the works that earn.

The "work", or "effort" or "corresponding action of obedience", that faith requires to be "active" or "alive", so as to produce a divine result.


Here are two examples from the scriptures, to describe what I'm referring to.

One example is faith for healing.
The other example is faith for justification.

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22


and again

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works [corresponding act of obedience], and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22

Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” Genesis 22:2


At this point, God had commanded Abraham, and by God speaking to Abraham, Abraham had faith.

However, Abraham's faith was not complete until he obeyed God.

It is this obedience of faith that is called, the righteousness of faith.

Faith without this corresponding act of obedience, is nothing but disobedience and rebellion.

Faith comes by hearing.

It is the doer and not just the hearer only, that will be justified.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


I going to stop here, and give you room to comment, as this post is getting too long.



JLB

 

[Chopper]

Yes sir, I see obedience as the "work" or "effort" that faith requires in our initial salvation.

Not the works of the law.
Not the works that earn.

The "work", or "effort" or "corresponding action of obedience", that faith requires to be "active" or "alive", so as to produce a divine result.


Here are two examples from the scriptures, to describe what I'm referring to.

One example is faith for healing.
The other example is faith for justification.

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22


and again

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works [corresponding act of obedience], and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22

Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” Genesis 22:2


At this point, God had commanded Abraham, and by God speaking to Abraham, Abraham had faith.

However, Abraham's faith was not complete until he obeyed God.

It is this obedience of faith that is called, the righteousness of faith.

Faith without this corresponding act of obedience, is nothing but disobedience and rebellion.

Faith comes by hearing.

It is the doer and not just the hearer only, that will be justified.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


I going to stop here, and give you room to comment, as this post is getting too long.



JLB

It looks to me as you are correct. With Romans 16:26 and Romans 1:5, I see that obedience is the obedience which springs from and is produced by faith. So, I suppose it could be argued that because faith for Salvation, is a gift of God,
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God (ESV). and therefore the obedience is also generated by the Holy Spirit. OR, the Gospel is presented to a person, the gift of faith to believe is extended to the person, he then has to decide whether to be obedient to this gift, or disobedient and stay lost.

 

[JLB]

It looks to me as you are correct. With Romans 16:26 and Romans 1:5, I see that obedience is the obedience which springs from and is produced by faith. So, I suppose it could be argued that because faith for Salvation, is a gift of God,
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God (ESV). and therefore the obedience is also generated by the Holy Spirit. OR, the Gospel is presented to a person, the gift of faith to believe is extended to the person, he then has to decide whether to be obedient to this gift, or disobedient and stay lost.

The only command I see in the Gospel is repent.

“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15

The Gospel message is: Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.
This is the call to turn to God, in submission to His rule and authority.
This is the command of the Gospel that we are to obey, if we believe the Gospel.

Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.

The Gospel is God's call to humanity, to "come out of hiding", in darkness, and to come into the light, the kingdom of light.

Repent is the command of the Gospel.

Not repent of your sins.

Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that you express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.


Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38


Peter did not say "repent of your sins".

A person can not "stop sinning" without the born again new Nature empowered by the Holy Spirit.


The way we are granted this, is by repenting, which means turning away from Satan and his kingdom, and turning to God, and confessing Jesus as Lord.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18

Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.


Look closely at what Paul said here in Romans, to see this principle of faith working together with obedience.

... with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Confession is the action of believing faith.

It is believing with the heart, and confessing with the mouth, together that makes faith complete.

Just as the act of obedience by Abraham, is how he was justified.

Abraham had faith when God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac... it wasn't until he obeyed God by actually raising the knife to kill Isaac that he was justified because he was shown to believe, by his obedience.

...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


JLB

 

[Chopper]

The only command I see in the Gospel is repent.

“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15

The Gospel message is: Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.
This is the call to turn to God, in submission to His rule and authority.
This is the command of the Gospel that we are to obey, if we believe the Gospel.

Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.

The Gospel is God's call to humanity, to "come out of hiding", in darkness, and to come into the light, the kingdom of light.

Repent is the command of the Gospel.

Not repent of your sins.

Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that you express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.


Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38


Peter did not say "repent of your sins".

A person can not "stop sinning" without the born again new Nature empowered by the Holy Spirit.


The way we are granted this, is by repenting, which means turning away from Satan and his kingdom, and turning to God, and confessing Jesus as Lord.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18

Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.


Look closely at what Paul said here in Romans, to see this principle of faith working together with obedience.

... with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Confession is the action of believing faith.

It is believing with the heart, and confessing with the mouth, together that makes faith complete.

Just as the act of obedience by Abraham, is how he was justified.

Abraham had faith when God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac... it wasn't until he obeyed God by actually raising the knife to kill Isaac that he was justified because he was shown to believe, by his obedience.

...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


JLB

You are absolutely correct. Good theology my friend.

 

[Chopper]

I think that this would be a good place for Chopper to relate my theology on the two classes of believers because I see a duel debate on the process of Salvation being presented by both sides of those who are posting their convictions.

The Elect....
Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

Now, this is just a reminder of doctrines of the Elect, which is a separate class of believers from those who come to Salvation thru the General Call of the Gospel.

The Elect are the chosen Remnant of God. Each individual was specifically identified and called to be part of this remnant before they were born, similar to Jeremiah, my example. They became part of the Elect thru what Calvin coined as "Irresistible grace" (the sovereignly given gift of faith cannot be rejected by the Elect.)

This applies to those who argue that no works at all are needed for Salvation to occur in a person, it's all God, not man's work.

The General Call of the Gospel....
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Other than the Elect Believers in Christ Jesus, are those who come to believe by faith in Jesus are those who hear the Gospel, and by their choice, and their act of faith believing in the death, burial, & resurrection of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins, repent and receive Christ Jesus as their Master Owner and Savior. As a result, their act of faith is coupled with "works". Faith without works is dead. The works will always accompany those who are genuinely saved.

This applies to JLB and I'm with him, as agreeing with his theology. There is a work of obedience to the Gospel call of the Holy Spirit to Salvation. Following Salvation, the proof of Salvation is continual works of righteousness the rest of their lives....
1 John 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

This verse, you have to think about....1 John 2:17 "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

What do I conclude from my statements? One side argues from the Elect, and JLB and I argue from the General Call of the Gospel.

 

[Jim Parker]

All of us should study our bibles.
Me, and you, included.
This should not insult you.
It does not insult me.

Beacuse of your earlier comments, I assumed that you were, once more, insinuating that I don't read the Bible and don't know it.

 

[Jim Parker]

The context of the Lord's Discourse is about His servants that will be judged when He returns.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus is talking to His disciples. And, just as the Pharisees were told that being a son of Abraham didn't guarantee your entrance into the kingdom of God (because God could raise up sons of Abraham from the stones) so, also, being a disciple of Christ doesn't guarantee entrance into the Kingdom unless one is a "good and faithful" servant.

So that passage is a warning to his disciples as is the parable of the 10 virgins.

But I don not agree that, in that passage, there is evidence of two resurrections, one before and one after the 1000 years.

Another reason that I do not accept the idea of two resurrections, one before and one after the 1000 year reign is that i do not believe that the 1000 years are to be taken literally. Again, I am very reluctant to take a strictly literal view of an ecstatic, apocalyptic vision which John has attempted to describe in human language. And there is the statement by Jesus that all authority in heaven and earth had been given to him before his ascension. (Mat 28:18) That says that He began His reign almost 2000 years ago which leads me to see the 1000 years of Revelation to mean "a long time."

Paul tells us that in baptism we participate in Christ's death, burial and resurrection. (Ro 6:3-4) That would be the "first resurrection."

For an alternative view of eschatology, you might find the following books interesting.
Ultimate Things by Dennis E. Englemen
A Second Look at the Second coming T. L. Fraizer

There is only one reference to a first and second resurrection and that is found in apocalyptic literature. Without substantial support from non-apocalyptic writings, I would not accept that interpretation. It seems to me to be more speculation than exegesis.

I'll be on the road for about 2 weeks so, if you respond right away, I won't see it for a little while.

jim

 

[Kidron]

Beacuse of your earlier comments, I assumed that you were, once more, insinuating that I don't read the Bible and don't know it.

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JP,

What i have learned from you about your theology is that you dont get your understanding of Salvation from Paul or Pauline Theology.
This is beyond obvious, according to the theology you continually write on this forum.
I discovered in December 2015 that you, as a typical Catholic, believe that "baptismal regeneration" is what you believe saved you, by twisting John 3 to say we are "born again in water.".....which of course is theological bankruptcy via twisting that scripture into a theological disaster.
So, what i know about you after reading your theology, is that you are an extreme example of Traditional Catholic Theology, and where it disagrees with Paul, you could care less, is what ive noted.
You typically will only quote Paul if you are on a rant and rampage to try to prove that you can lose your salvation by not working for it.

Ive certainly noted that you live in the book of Matthew to try to prove your Catholic Theology.
And where we will spark and never connect is when i tell you that if you are saved, then Jesus's Blood through God's Grace ALONE saved you and keeps you saved and Nothing Else, (and this didnt happen when you were water regenerated)..... And, that no commands you can keep after you are saved or works you can do after you are saved, will keep you saved, or prevent you from being saved, if you dont do them.
And all of this is what you rewrite over and over about commands and works because you are only trusting in those to keep you saved, instead of Trusting in Christ alone to save you.

Simple put, according to your stated theology you have not trusted your soul or your salvation on the finished bloody work of Jesus on the Cross alone to save you, but you have placed your hope in water regeneration and the Works that you feel you must continue to do to save yourself .
More simply put, you DO NOT Trust in Christ Alone to save you and keep you saved for eternity, according to the pages you post about commands and works here on the forum.

So, no, we cant come to an agreement about Paul's Revelation of the Grace of God, as i will never try to diminish the Cross of Christ to suit your theology of " water regenerated then kept saved by works as long as i keep doing them"...which IS the same thing as saying...."all can lose their salvation if they dont DO THESE WORKS and here let me show you"""".
That is you, JP, and that is definitely not what i will ever be found trying to teach anyone regarding Salvation, and this is because i know better then that teach "another Gospel" of " water regeneration + works to keep from losing my salvation"....as Paul explains in Galatians 1&2 that "another gospel", such as that one, is to turn Light into Lightning.

 

[JLB]

But I don not agree that, in that passage, there is evidence of two resurrections, one before and one after the 1000 years.

The passage in Mathew 25:31-46 is about the first resurrection of His servants.

I didn't say there were two resurrections pictured in Matthew 25:31-46.

The goats are His servants... who because disobedient [unbelief].

The resurrection of unbelievers is after the 1000 years are over.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

What i have learned from you about your theology is that you dont get your understanding of Salvation from Paul or Pauline Theology.

What Paul wrote is BIBLICAL theology.

I discovered in December 2015 that you, as a typical Catholic,

OK I'll try one more time.
I AM NOT A CATHOLIC.
DID YOU UNDERSTAND THIS TIME??????
I REJECT CATHOLIC THEOLOGY.

So, what i know about you after reading your theology, is that you are an extreme example of Traditional Catholic Theology,

And what I know from that statement is that you don't know what "Catholic theology" is and you have absolutely no understanding or what I have been posting.

Since you have made it perfectly clear that (1) you don't know what you're talking about (2) you have no idea what I am talking about I conclude that there is no reason to attempt further discourse with you.

So, I just add you to my "ignore" file.

You have a nice day.

 

[Jim Parker]

The passage in Mathew 25:31-46 is about the first resurrection of His servants.

I don't buy that.

I didn't say there were two resurrections pictured in Matthew 25:31-46.

Neither did I. What I meant was that there is only one resurrection unto judgment. All references to resurrection followed by judgment refer to that one resurrection. That's how I see it.

The goats are His servants... who because disobedient [unbelief].

That's too far a stretch for me because that view is contrary to what the scripture says.
Mat 25:31-32a (RSV) When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations,
There is nothing to indicate that "all nations" is equivalent to "His servants."
That the "sheep" and the "goats" address him as "Lord" only reflects that He is the King. The term "Lord" is an appropriate word to use when addressing a king. (Let alone THE King)
It appears to me that seeing those as His servants is necessary to explain away the apparent contradiction to the "2 judgments" theology rather than a reasoned exegesis of the scripture.

The resurrection of unbelievers is after the 1000 years are over.

I understand but I don't buy it.

jim

 

[GodsGrace]

Stop trusting in faith to save you, and start Trusting in God who Saved you.
Faith does not save you, ...God saved you........ONCE.
So, holding onto faith, does nothing, only being SAVED counts, and that is accomplished by God as soon as you believed and once accomplished cant be undone by how you think or feel or behave today, or next Friday.
Stop trusting in your faith, and start realizing what GOD has done for you, and let that be your truth, as there is no other, regarding being "saved".

Ephesians 2:8
Romans 3:21-28.....4:3-7

I don't understand how you reason this out Kidron.

This Idea of yours that it's God that saves and not faith.

God exists. God made man to dwell with Him.
It's our choice.
Man could dwell with God
OR he could deny God.

So God exists in any case.
God made all, He made us.
He's there.
He made the plan - the plan of salvation, salvation economy. How to save us once we became lost in the Garden. He had the plan from the beginning.

So God always existed.
The PLAN always existed.

SO???

Now we must ACCEPT that plan.
It's our FAITH that makes us accept it.

So if God exists and the plan exists, no matter what -
IT MUST BE FAITH that leads to salvation.

It's FAITH that is missing from the above equation.

The equation exists anyway,
It's your FAITH that makes you accept it and THUS saves you.

You keep saying that it's God that saves you.
OF COURSE! That goes without saying.
So is EVERYONE on earth saved?
NO.
Because they don't have FAITH.

FAITH SAVES.

Wondering

 

[JLB]

That's too far a stretch for me because that view is contrary to what the scripture says.
Mat 25:31-32a (RSV) When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations,
There is nothing to indicate that "all nations" is equivalent to "His servants."
That the "sheep" and the "goats" address him as "Lord" only reflects that He is the King. The term "Lord" is an appropriate word to use when addressing a king. (Let alone THE King)
It appears to me that seeing those as His servants is necessary to explain away the apparent contradiction to the "2 judgments" theology rather than a reasoned exegesis of the scripture.

Nations here is a reference to "ethnic groups", as in Gentiles, which was a stark contrast to the mindset of His very Jewish disciples, who thought only the Jews would be part of His kingdom.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Jesus had subtly referenced this in the past, and continued to plant seeds about the gentiles being a part of the new covenant, along with the natural offspring of Abraham.

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:14-16

Nations - Strong's G1484 - ethnos

1. a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together
   1. a company, troop, swarm
2. a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus
   1. the human family
3. a tribe, nation, people group
4. in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles
5. Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians
   

The context of what Jesus was teaching is the best way to determine the meaning of this word.

I won't post all the scriptures back to Matthew 24:44, because I have done this...

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country,who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. Matthew 25:14-15

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:29-46


Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’

Why would you think Jesus would give unbelievers the responsibility to minister and serve and show love to His people?

Makes no sense and is a gross misrepresentation of the plain context of His teaching.

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country,who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. Matthew 25:14-15


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Why would you think Jesus would give unbelievers the responsibility to minister and serve and show love to His people?

Where did you get that idea?
All of mankind is created in God's image and likeness.
No one is exempt from the calling to be like God.
The most important attribute of God toward mankind is His mercy because all of mankind has sinned and the only hope of alll mankind is His mercy.
Those who strive to be like God by being merciful (loving one's neighbor) inherit the kingdom.
Those who do not strive to be like God go to hell.
That's what Jesus told ALL MANKIND (not just a select few) at Mat 25:31-46.
There is not one standard for the people you deem to be "His servants" and another for those whom you deem are not "His servants."

 

[Kidron]

Those who strive to be like God by being merciful (loving one's neighbor) inherit the kingdom.

-
Thank you for that theological Baloney....did you want some bread with it?......Mayo?

JP....You just posted that to inherit the Kingdom of God, (which is to be born again into IT, based on the Blood Atonement), is to "strive to be like God".
So where is the Blood of JESUS in your "religion"
= NOWHERE TO BE FOUND.
So how about......... you add some CROSS to your self righteous RELIGIOSITY striving, Jim Parker......asap.
That is what GOD would have you do.
Otherwise, keep handing out your religious sandwiches, i guess.