Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[JLB]

Where in the Bible is this taught?? "acting like they belive"??? Where is this condition taught as necessary for salvation?

Of course EVERY believer should act like a believer. But not in order to stay saved, or get saved.


Every believer should do this.


Every believer should do this.


Please consider carefully this statement. If true, then Jesus Christ died IN VAIN. Also, if true, then there are many many verses that cannot be true. So your statement goes DIRECTLY AGAINST God's Word.


This isn't about "proof text" or one's memory. It's directly about what the Bible SAYS about salvation.


This is true, but NOT to determine WHERE one will spend eternity. For believers, works determine reward or loss of reward. For unbelievers, works determine how "tolerable" the lake of fire will be.


The 2 verses BEFORE v.10 refutes this claim. We are saved by grace through faith, not of works.

Just as true as John 5:24 are the context of John 5:24, which say:

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

...all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

The condition for coming forth in the resurrection of life: those who have done good



JLB

 

[WIP]

I will take this as a challenge. I have addressed the verses from the opposition and explained what they mean. I don't recall the opposition doing that for the verses I have presented.

So, please provide the verses/passages that appear to teach that salvation can be lost, and I'd be happy to address them.

Thanks for the opportunity.

I'm not going to engage in this debate where one is unwilling to acknowledge the other's points of discussion. As I read some of these back-and-forth arguments I can't help but be reminded of the scene from the Monty Python series where the guard at a bridge denied passage and during the ensuing battle the guard lost both arms and legs and still denied that he was injured and continued to challenge his foe.

 

[JLB]

I'm not going to engage in this debate where one is unwilling to acknowledge the other's points of discussion. As I read some of these back-and-forth arguments I can't help but be reminded of the scene from the Monty Python series where the guard at a bridge denied passage and during the ensuing battle the guard lost both arms and legs and still denied that he was injured and continued to challenge his foe.

 

[billybalke]

Where in the Bible is this taught?? "acting like they belive"??? Where is this condition taught as necessary for salvation?

Of course EVERY believer should act like a believer. But not in order to stay saved, or get saved.


Every believer should do this.


Every believer should do this.


Please consider carefully this statement. If true, then Jesus Christ died IN VAIN. Also, if true, then there are many many verses that cannot be true. So your statement goes DIRECTLY AGAINST God's Word.


This isn't about "proof text" or one's memory. It's directly about what the Bible SAYS about salvation.


This is true, but NOT to determine WHERE one will spend eternity. For believers, works determine reward or loss of reward. For unbelievers, works determine how "tolerable" the lake of fire will be.


The 2 verses BEFORE v.10 refutes this claim. We are saved by grace through faith, not of works.

Have you replied to my post #2408?

 

[FreeGrace]

Now please show us the scripture that teaches us the condition of believing is no longer required for present tense eternal life in Christ.

JLB

Here is truth: those given eternal life will NEVER PERISH. So says Jesus in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
If your opinion is that He didn't mean what He said, please explain what you think He meant.

 

[FreeGrace]

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

The condition of present tense believing, results in present tense eternal life.

The condition of believing in the present results in having eternal life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

And in this verse, Jesus was clear: those given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

How is that not eternal security for those given eternal life?

 

[FreeGrace]

Please show how they are the wrong questions.

Your question assumes people become sheep. I explained WHY that isn't possible from the text.

You ask one like mine, just more generic, after saying mine are wrong.

No, I explained WHY your question was wrong.

My question - "Does a sheep become a sheep after they hear His voice? Or do sheep hear His voice because they are sheep?"

Again, here is WHY the question is wrong: sheep do NOT BECOME a sheep. Sheep are ALWAYS a sheep. That's why.

Your question - "When does a sheep become His sheep?"

And I gave the answer, which is found in v.9.

You're not following what I've explained.

This seems very hypocritical of you toward me.

I explained WHY your question was wrong: sheep DO NOT BECOME sheep. The reality is that SOME of THE sheep become HIS sheep.

If the difference cannot be deciphered, further discussion will be futile.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm not going to engage in this debate where one is unwilling to acknowledge the other's points of discussion.

I have acknowledged the opposition's points. And refuted them with much more clearly stated verses.

Well, I extended an invitation to discuss the opposition's verses and points.

I don't know how that's not being willing to acknowledge the other's points of discussion.

 

[FreeGrace]

Have you replied to my post #2408?

Your post only contained 2 quotes of mine. I suggest you go back and take a look at that post. There was nothing to reply to.

 

[Nathan]

Your question assumes people become sheep. I explained WHY that isn't possible from the text.


No, I explained WHY your question was wrong.


Again, here is WHY the question is wrong: sheep do NOT BECOME a sheep. Sheep are ALWAYS a sheep. That's why.


And I gave the answer, which is found in v.9.

You're not following what I've explained.


I explained WHY your question was wrong: sheep DO NOT BECOME sheep. The reality is that SOME of THE sheep become HIS sheep.

If the difference cannot be deciphered, further discussion will be futile.

Right! So the sheep do not have to do anything to become a sheep. They are one because God made them that way. I am glad you are starting to see this clearly now. Being a sheep is not based on you believing - you believe in Christ because you are a sheep.

So, those who are His sheep hear Him and follow Him - just like He says in John 10:27. But the ones who do not hear Him, or follow Him, are not His sheep.

 

[Gregg T]

Right! So the sheep do not have to do anything to become a sheep. They are one because God made them that way. I am glad you are starting to see this clearly now. Being a sheep is not based on you believing - you believe in Christ because you are a sheep.

So, those who are His sheep hear Him and follow Him - just like He says in John 10:27. But the ones who do not hear Him, or follow Him, are not His sheep.

It appears that you are projecting your doctrine onto an opponent.

What do you think of this:
Joh 10:26 But you do not believe for you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Do you think those He was speaking to, those not His sheep at that time, could later be saved after Christ was resurrected and ascended?

 

[Nathan]

It appears that you are projecting your doctrine onto an opponent.

What do you think of this:
Joh 10:26 But you do not believe for you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Do you think those He was speaking to, those not His sheep at that time, could later be saved after Christ was resurrected and ascended?

Projecting my doctrine onto an opponent? I'd love an explanation of how that works.

I believe it is possible that anyone believe in Christ for salvation - except those who have already and chose to reject Him for a return back to sin.

So the ones in John 10:26 had as much possibility as anyone else. They just did not believe at that time because they were not His - not being His meant that it was impossible that they could hear what He was saying or follow Him. He makes this quite clear with the very next sentence.

 

[FreeGrace]

Right! So the sheep do not have to do anything to become a sheep.

I don't understand your comment. How does a sheep become a sheep? That doesn't make sense. A sheep IS a sheep.

 

[billybalke]

Your post only contained 2 quotes of mine. I suggest you go back and take a look at that post. There was nothing to reply to.

Just went back and checked post 2408, my reply is in the 2nd frame.

 

[Gregg T]

Projecting my doctrine onto an opponent? I'd love an explanation of how that works.

I believe it is possible that anyone believe in Christ for salvation - except those who have already and chose to reject Him for a return back to sin.

So the ones in John 10:26 had as much possibility as anyone else. They just did not believe at that time because they were not His - not being His meant that it was impossible that they could hear what He was saying or follow Him. He makes this quite clear with the very next sentence.

Could they be saved future to that conversation in Jn 10:28-29, if they afterwards repented and then believed in Him? Yes or no please?

 

[FreeGrace]

Just went back and checked post 2408, my reply is in the 2nd frame.

When I checked it, there were 2 quotes of mine. No comments from you. Maybe you could copy and paste your comments with my comments into a new post, so I could respond.

Thanks.

 

[billybalke]

When I checked it, there were 2 quotes of mine. No comments from you. Maybe you could copy and paste your comments with my comments into a new post, so I could respond.

Thanks.

My reply is at he bottom of the 2nd quote

 

[Nathan]

I don't understand your comment. How does a sheep become a sheep? That doesn't make sense. A sheep IS a sheep.

Then is a goat always a goat? Do you believe sheep and goats are created as such and can never be either or?

 

[Nathan]

Could they be saved future to that conversation in Jn 10:28-29, if they afterwards repented and then believed in Him? Yes or no please?

I honestly do not understand your question.

In order to answer with a straight yes or no I need to fully understand what your asking.

Are you asking if they believed in Jesus, later on(after He made the statements), then they would be saved before He made the statements? That's how I am reading it, and it does not make sense to me. And there is no way I could answer it with a yes or no.

I think it might be an conflict of our thoughts about salvation. They did not believe because they could not hear. Whether it was because God did not allow them at the time, or they had hardened their hearts, I do not know.

If later they were able to hear, and believed in Him, then their salvation is/was just the same as all others. Salvation does not happen as a result of our doing(believing), it has already happened. It's done. We either believe it or deny it.

In the end, it comes down to those who believe and those who don't. There are only two groups we see in the end.

 

[Gregg T]

I honestly do not understand your question.

In order to answer with a straight yes or no I need to fully understand what your asking.

Are you asking if they believed in Jesus, later on(after He made the statements), then they would be saved before He made the statements? That's how I am reading it, and it does not make sense to me. And there is no way I could answer it with a yes or no.

I think it might be an conflict of our thoughts about salvation. They did not believe because they could not hear. Whether it was because God did not allow them at the time, or they had hardened their hearts, I do not know.

If later they were able to hear, and believed in Him, then their salvation is/was just the same as all others. Salvation does not happen as a result of our doing(believing), it has already happened. It's done. We either believe it or deny it.

In the end, it comes down to those who believe and those who don't. There are only two groups we see in the end.

Concerning the ones Jesus spoke to in Jn 10:28-29, could they become saved at a later date? Suppose they believed in Jesus after His Resurrection, could they be saved after His Resurrection?