I am waiting for a clarification of your previous question.Sometimes the best answer to a question is another question. When you answer the question I asked, then you will have the answer to your question.
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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I am waiting for a clarification of your previous question.Sometimes the best answer to a question is another question. When you answer the question I asked, then you will have the answer to your question.
Which one?I am waiting for a clarification of your previous question.
Or you could just ask another question. Because sometimes the best answer to a question of a question is another question. In the event you simply get another question, then you could ask an addition question. Because sometimes the best answer to a question of a question of a question is another question. You won't have any answers, but just think of all the cool questions that would have been asked!I am waiting for a clarification of your previous question.
Or you could just ask another question. Because sometimes the best answer to a question of a question is another question. In the event you simply get another question, then you could ask an addition question. Because sometimes the best answer to a question of a question of a question is another question. You won't have any answers, but just think of all the cool questions that would have been asked!
I didn't ask any questions.The only reason you wont have answers is because you did not want them.
I know.I didn't ask any questions.
This is a question I have pondered many times. As a child most adult relatives did not attend church at all and a couple went several times a year. Saying grace before eating was not practiced in most of my kins homes; in a couple it was. Us kids went to bible school a few times each summer but not all summer.WHO CONTINUES in the faith? NON-believers?
No one is claiming that God does not do the saving. As my post says God is the Savior. And, it is His righteousness accounted / credited to the one believing into Christ. I've never said otherwise.It is an either or dichotomy. Either God is the Savior or we are. If what we do 'saves' us, then it is not God who saves. I think that its because people look at salvation as an 'instantaneous' event that they do not see how it is through faith, but it is ongoing also.
So, you will be saved if you believe - because if you do not believe you will leave the only source of salvation. Salvation does not happen because you believe, rather, salvation has happened and if you do not believe then you will turn away from it. God saved the people from Egypt long before they believed in Him as their Savior.
Righteousness is 'credited' to us when we believe, its not a result of it. Look at the word used for "resulting in" - its the same word you and I discussed before. G1519
When we believe we are turning from our righteousness to His righteousness. His righteousness is already there, it is not a result of our belief. When we confess we are no longer speaking of our own works, but speaking of His works - which is salvation for us. Salvation is not a result of our confession.
This is done so that we cannot take any credit - whatsoever - for righteousness or salvation. Its all Him. He does it in us first, and the result of that is what we believe and confess - or reject and deny.
The first rule when we study is that passages can never contradict any other passages. God will not contradict Himself. Second rule is to always look before, and after, a passage to get the context.No one is claiming that God does not do the saving. As my post says God is the Savior. And, it is His righteousness accounted / credited to the one believing into Christ. I've never said otherwise.
Read Rom 10:9-10 slowly, word by word, pausing in between each word. It plainly requires one to believe and confess before one is saved and justified; and as such 1. a person believes with the heart resulting in righteousness, and 2. confessess with the mouth resulting in salvation.
This is what I was saying about Theological Dyslexia Disorder. It seems you want to disregard the order - first believing and confesing, which must be done by the person before God justifies the individual person (accounts His righteousness to) and saves the individual person.
Can you agree with this? If yes, please say so. If not, please show me how you understand Rom 10:9-10 reverses that order 1. believe and confess, 2. resulting in justification and salvation.
okay.The first rule when we study is that passages can never contradict any other passages. God will not contradict Himself. Second rule is to always look before, and after, a passage to get the context.
We first have to see that in Romans Paul is addressing Jewish beliefs about salvation and righteousness. Then after, in verse 14, we see what Paul is stating - this is where He ties it all together.
Rom 10:14
How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
What Paul was indicating was not an "order" of salvation, but rather how salvation is understood in Christ verses how the Jewish people understood it. Its a contrast that Paul is setting forth, not an order.
God saves us before we ever believed and confessed it.
Eph 2:4-7
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
We see that we were made alive with Christ while we were dead in our sins. When is the last time you saw a dead anything make a confession?
Again, in Romans Paul is simply showing the contrast of the Jewish way of thinking about justification and salvation, verses how we know it to be. In other words, the Jews thought they did something - then received something. We know that we receive something - and respond with doing something. We are justified by God through Christ and we believe this. We will be saved from the wrath to come by God in Christ and we confess this.
If justification and salvation only were given to us on the basis of our confession and belief, then we could boast in what we did in order to receive what God makes available.
Here is the main thing to understand. When we do not believe in the God who justifies us, then we believe in something else that does. When we do not confess that it is God who saves us, then we confess that something else does. So when Paul states that "For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.", he is saying that we are justified and we believe this in our heart - we are saved and we confess this with our mouth.
I don't believe in order to be saved, I believe because I am saved. A sinner is not one because he sins, he sins because he is a sinner. A righteous person is not one because he does righteousness, he does righteousness because he is righteous.
Your reply to that comment was:Which one?
lolOr you could just ask another question. Because sometimes the best answer to a question of a question is another question. In the event you simply get another question, then you could ask an addition question. Because sometimes the best answer to a question of a question of a question is another question. You won't have any answers, but just think of all the cool questions that would have been asked!
Well, this is interesting! You've advanced the idea that a saved person can leave Christ and therefore lose salvation/eternal life.The first rule when we study is that passages can never contradict any other passages. God will not contradict Himself. Second rule is to always look before, and after, a passage to get the context.
This has YET to be shown from Scripture.God saves us before we ever believed and confessed it.
That is from Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.We see that we were made alive with Christ while we were dead in our sins.
How is this relevant to anything? Spiritual death and physical death are not related. Spiritual death is soul separation from God, while physical death is soul separation from the body. James 2:26.When is the last time you saw a dead anything make a confession?
Please stop contradicting the Bible. You've never provided ANY Scripture to support this opinion, and Paul directly contradicts your opinion in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”I don't believe in order to be saved, I believe because I am saved.
If a person thinks they are saved because they did something - that person is caught in the bonds of iniquity. I cannot be more clear than that.Well, this is interesting! You've advanced the idea that a saved person can leave Christ and therefore lose salvation/eternal life.
Yet, Jesus said those He gives eternal life to will never perish. In direct contradiction to your ideas.
Please respond.
This has YET to be shown from Scripture.
otoh, the exact opposite has been shown. Here are some examples:
John 3:16, 5:24, 6:40, Acts 16:31, Eph 2:8.
That is from Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Why did Paul add the phrase "it is by grace you have been saved" after the dash? To equate the phrase "made us alive with Christ" with "you have been saved". So that last phrase is equated with being "made alive with Christ".
Now, down to v.8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
To be saved is "through faith". iow, the faith MUST precede being saved. How can one be saved if there is no faith. The words "through faith" mean that faith is present. So salvation proceeds from faith.
How is this relevant to anything? Spiritual death and physical death are not related. Spiritual death is soul separation from God, while physical death is soul separation from the body. James 2:26.
Please stop contradicting the Bible. You've never provided ANY Scripture to support this opinion, and Paul directly contradicts your opinion in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
The tense for 'believe' is aorist. The words "will be saved" is future. So obviously, being saved FOLLOWS believing. No other option.
I know that. But whether one of His sheep fall away or not is not relevant? Why not? Because Jesus SAYS that those He gives eternal life will never perish. So what ever happens AFTER receiving eternal life doesn't change what Jesus promises about never perishing.
What's not to understand about NO CONDITIONS for recipients ("I give them...") of eternal life?
No. Biblical. Where in John 10:28 did Jesus give ANY conditions for never perishing for those He gives eternal life?
This is simply obvious. When one FIRST believes in Christ is "a moment of faith". So, from what Jesus SAID in John 5:24, we KNOW that WHEN one first believes is WHEN they FIRST HAVE eternal life.
If there is disagreement, then please explain why.
Jesus noted some who "believed for a while" in Luke 8:13. They HAD faith, and then they didn't. Real life. And from other verses, we KNOW that WHEN they did believe, they were given eternal life. And the result is that they will never perish. John 10:28
You have misunderstood what I have been saying.If justification and salvation only were given to us on the basis of our confession and belief, then we could boast in what we did in order to receive what God makes available.
Well, yes, you could, but we've been over this already. There's nothing more to say about it.If a person thinks they are saved because they did something - that person is caught in the bonds of iniquity. I cannot be more clear than that.
Yes He does. Scripture opposes this comment.God does not save you as a result of you believing
This has been repeated many times, and at NO TIME has ANY verse been provided to support this.you have the ability to believe because God has saved you
Believe is a general term. Saved by belief? Yes, but at what point of belief.Well, yes, you could, but we've been over this already. There's nothing more to say about it.
Yes He does. Scripture opposes this comment.
Paul said this in Acts 16 -
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Paul also said this in 1 Cor -
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
Paul also said this in Eph 2 -
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
This is as clear as can be. Salvation is based on believing, or faith.
This has been repeated many times, and at NO TIME has ANY verse been provided to support this.
Not sure I understand the question. What is meant by "point of belief"?Believe is a general term. Saved by belief? Yes, but at what point of belief.