billybalke
Member
Is one saved immediately when one first believes? I hope that helps clarify.
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Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works
- Thread starter Jim Parker
- Start date
Define "destroyed" here.
Define "saved" here.
In Jude, the word "destroyed" refers to their physical death during their 40 year march through the desert.
The word "saved" is used in its normal use, for delivering or rescuing from danger. They were save "out of the land of Egypt". Where danger was.
So this verse doesn't even come close to proving the error that salvation precedes believing.
Acts 16:31 totally refutes that notion. The jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved and the answer was: believe and you will be saved. clear.as.day.
Got it. Thanks. Yes, one is saved immediately when one first believes.
The reason is found in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
"whoever believes HAS eternal life". That's it.
Since this statement is true, how can one who "first believes" not HAVE eternal life?
So, the moment one believes, in that moment they are saved, and they HAVE eternal life.
Then why do you teach that people do not have to believe any longer.
Those who continue to believe, continue to have the Son.
- Those who have Christ, have eternal life.
- Those who do not have Christ, do not have eternal life.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:12-13
- again, we must have the substance of faith to the end, because faith is the substance of the thing we are hoping for: salvation.
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:12-19
The scripture says today if you will hear His voice.
It doesn't say, yesterday if you have heard His Voice.
The bible teaches we must endure to the end to be saved, which means believe to the end.
- But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13
Those who depart from Him, are no longer a part of Him, being disconnected from Him.
Those who remain in Him, have eternal life in this life, which is only found in Him, and will inherit eternal life at the resurrection.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
We are commanded to remain in Him, or be cast into the fire and burned.
- The way we come to be in Him is believe.
- The condition for eternal life is believe.
- The condition for salvation is believe
If the condition of believe is not met any longer then the result of eternal life is no longer produced.
- Those who endure to the end are saved. Matthew 24:13
Those who continue to believe, continue to have the Son.
- Those who have Christ, have eternal life.
- Those who do not have Christ, do not have eternal life.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:12-13
JLB
Nathan
Member
John 10
1 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.
2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.
Jude
3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day-
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
8 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.
John 10
7 So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.
9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.
Does a sheep become a sheep after they hear His voice? Or do sheep hear His voice because they are sheep?
Beware of false shepherds, they look like sheep but are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits.
1 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.
2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.
Jude
3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day-
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
8 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.
John 10
7 So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.
9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.
Does a sheep become a sheep after they hear His voice? Or do sheep hear His voice because they are sheep?
Beware of false shepherds, they look like sheep but are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits.
The word "hear" is present tense, which is the condition.
“Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
15 while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
Hebrews 3:12-15
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
JLB
Somehow, I'm seeing both sides of this argument doing the same thing. Both sides have been picking certain verses (many, many verses) that support their position but neither side has truly reconciled everything that has been presented. Scripture does not contradict and yet with each side's arguments, the other presents verses that show the opposite view.
What needs to happen, at least for me, is to see how both positions can be reconciled to come to the absolute truth. For this reason as I read through these arguments, which by the way have become quite repetitive and lacking in edification, I find myself bouncing along teetering on the edge of the fence between.
I must continue to pray for wisdom and guidance, not from men but from God.
What needs to happen, at least for me, is to see how both positions can be reconciled to come to the absolute truth. For this reason as I read through these arguments, which by the way have become quite repetitive and lacking in edification, I find myself bouncing along teetering on the edge of the fence between.
I must continue to pray for wisdom and guidance, not from men but from God.
Nathan
Member
When someone is convinced of something then it's near impossible to make them see something different.
The discussion will always seem lacking when your caught in the middle.
It could be helpful, if your wanting to discuss for the reason of knowing more, if you pose questions. When I want to understand something, I always pose a question to be answered. Sometimes I find that question to be too broad, so then I drill it down. I keep going till I find the question I can get an absolute from - then work my way back up from there.
Once you have an absolute, you can build on it.
John 5:22-24Revised Standard Version (RSV)
22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Line 24 is part of his teaching to do as he said ie. honour him as you would honour the Father. Follow his instruction ie. as a son honours his parent's instruction. Hear, O sons, a father's instruction, and be attentive, that you may gain insight; for I give you good precepts; do not forsake my teaching. Pr. 4:1-2
Proverbs 4:4
he taught me, and said to me, “Let your heart hold fast my words; keep my commandments, and live;
So he who honours the Son and keeps his commandments, has eternal life; he doesn't come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
So he who keeps the words of eternal life, has eternal life.
Line 24 doesn't say anything about being saved when one first believes; nothing about the moment one believes either.
Jim Parker
Member
Salvation is the gracious gift of God.
It is given to those who believe and who then act like they believe.
A person acts like he believes by doing the good works which Jesus commanded.
Jesus commanded that we love one another, love our neighbors and love our enemies.
Paul provides the Biblical definition of love at 1 Cor 13:4-7.
The definition contains specific behaviors which a believer is commanded by Jesus to do.
The final act of God in His salvation of men is when He says," Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me." (Mat 25:34-36)
Those who did not do the works of love will be told; "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me." (Mat 25:41-43)
When Jesus judges mankind, He will not ask if anyone believed. Everyone's deeds will testify to the fact that they did or did not believe.
Everyone will go to heaven or hell depending on what he did or did not do, not what you believed or how many proof texts you can recite from memory. Everyone will be judged based on his WORKS. And anyone who does not do the "good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Eph 2:10) will not be saved because if you believe in god you will obey God and if you don't obey God then that is damning evidence that you, in fact, do NOT believe in God.
Faith without works is dead faith and it will not save anyone.
Saving faith is faith combined with works. It is faith working together with works, and by works faith is made perfect. (James 2:22)
There is a very popular and pervasive and demonically false teaching that has been spread through the Church which tells believers that they don't have to do anything other than believe (and intellectual function) to be saves. It is false. It is a lie from the pit of hell. It is what Bonhoeffer called "Cheap Grace." The demons intellectually believe that Jesus is the son of God who died for the sins of mankind and Who rose from the dead but, in spite of their sincere belief, not one of them will be saved. When someone gives intellectual assent to the teaching of the Bible but does not OBEY Jesus commands, that person is not saved. Jesus is not your LORD unless you obey Him.
So, no. There is nothing anyone can do and no amount of good works that will save him because all have sinned and have earned death and separation from God. We're not saved by our works. Only God saves and He saves because we need salvation; because He loves us, and because He is gracious and is disposed to be gracious toward us.
God graciously saves those who have faith in Jesus' finished work and who do as Paul instructed them to do: "Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ" (1Co 11:1) Acting like sons of God (as Jesus is the Son of God and only does what the Father shows Him to do) is our task on the path to salvation. It is a narrow path "and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Mat 7:14) But we are commanded to walk that path, not sit on our butts in the pews and become Bible gnostics who can argue about every comma in the KJV.
And that's all I have to say about that.
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Why do you make up such stuff? I've never taught that. I teach what Jesus taught; eternal security.
Along with that, I DO teach that those who think eternal security gives them a "license" to do whatever they want, God's discipline, which won't be pleasant, but painful, per Heb 12:11, and includes weakness, sickness and physical death, per 1 Cor 11:30.
To be saved, one MUST believe in Christ. Got it? After that, those children of God who rebel will face His discipline. Got it?
The notion of having to "continue to believe" in order to continue to be saved cannot be shown from Scripture. So please cease with these baseless opinions.
Even v.13 refutes your opinion. John wants believers to continue to believe, sure. But where in the verse did he say one one continue to believe in order to continue to be saved? Nowhere is where.
It should be obvious to everyone that a saved person should continue to believe. That's the ONLY way to be blessed by God. In fact, the Bible clearly encourages saved people to continue to believe:
Acts 11:23 - When he arrived and saw what the grace of God had done, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts.
Acts 14:22 - strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said.
What is missing from these verses is the notion that one must remain true FOR salvation or "to remain saved".
Those who consider the CONTEXT for that verse know that it is applicable ONLY to the 7 year Tribulation. And isn't about eternal soul salvation.
These statements have no support from Scripture. So again, just more opinions.
In fact, Jesus refutes these opinions:
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
The result of being given eternal life is that the recipient will never perish. And Jesus always spoke truth.
Wrong questions.
In John 10, "sheep" refer to people. ALL people are "sheep" in John 10. And Jesus noted those that were His sheep, other sheep of His, and those not of His sheep.
So, the real question is: when does a sheep become His sheep? The answer is found in v.9 - I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.
I don't think anyone will argue against the fact that all of His sheep are saved people. So v.9 tells us HOW one becomes one of His sheep.
I said this:
"The hope is eternity itself. I already HAVE eternal life because Jesus said this:
"“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24
The word "has" is present tense. Please define what the present tense for 'has' means."
The question has not been answered. So I will conclude that you cannot answer it.
"The hope is eternity itself. I already HAVE eternal life because Jesus said this:
"“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24
The word "has" is present tense. Please define what the present tense for 'has' means."
OK, let's get back to my question and verse, which is John 5:24, not a verse in Hebrews. The question deals with the present tense of "has".
This is incredible. How does this passage define the present tense for "has"? It doesn't.
The question has not been answered. So I will conclude that you cannot answer it.
And neither does this verse answer the question of what the present tense of "has" means.
I will take this as a challenge. I have addressed the verses from the opposition and explained what they mean. I don't recall the opposition doing that for the verses I have presented.
So, please provide the verses/passages that appear to teach that salvation can be lost, and I'd be happy to address them.
Thanks for the opportunity.
No, John 5:24 doesn't say that. The one who hears and believes HAS eternal life.
It should be obvious. The fact that one who believes HAS eternal life indicates that they HAVE it when they initially believed.
Unless there are any verses that specifically address receiving eternal life some time LATER than when one first believes, there is NO REASON to assume it is given later on.
When do you think one has eternal life, if not at initial faith? And if not at initial faith, where does the Bible indicate such?
Where in the Bible is this taught?? "acting like they belive"??? Where is this condition taught as necessary for salvation?
Of course EVERY believer should act like a believer. But not in order to stay saved, or get saved.
Every believer should do this.
Every believer should do this.
Please consider carefully this statement. If true, then Jesus Christ died IN VAIN. Also, if true, then there are many many verses that cannot be true. So your statement goes DIRECTLY AGAINST God's Word.
This isn't about "proof text" or one's memory. It's directly about what the Bible SAYS about salvation.
This is true, but NOT to determine WHERE one will spend eternity. For believers, works determine reward or loss of reward. For unbelievers, works determine how "tolerable" the lake of fire will be.
The 2 verses BEFORE v.10 refutes this claim. We are saved by grace through faith, not of works.
- The condition: whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me. Present tense.
- The result of meeting the condition: has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." Present tense
The condition of present tense believing, results in present tense eternal life.
Now please show us the scripture that teaches us the condition of believing is no longer required for present tense eternal life in Christ.
JLB
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24
- The condition: whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me. Present tense.
- The result of meeting the condition: has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." Present tense
The condition of present tense believing, results in present tense eternal life.
Now please show us the scripture that teaches us the condition of believing is no longer required for present tense eternal life in Christ.
JLB
Nathan
Member
Please show how they are the wrong questions. You ask one like mine, just more generic, after saying mine are wrong.
My question - "Does a sheep become a sheep after they hear His voice? Or do sheep hear His voice because they are sheep?"
Your question - "When does a sheep become His sheep?"
This seems very hypocritical of you toward me.
To answer your question I would have to ask a question. Are you talking about before or after the sheep hear His voice?