Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[chessman]

This thread does not have eternal life. It is doomed to become a dead thread, IMO. So I'll be brief and conclude my understanding of 6:22 so as to not waste time/effort drafting a reply only to lose it to a dead thread. [although it's always helpful to prepare my answers]

Bingo. Christ does not have that body anymore.

Bingo. We do not have dead souls anymore. We have souls that are alive to God.

We do have that body still, and so we have to consider ourselves to be like what Christ is.

I know, precisely because we still have these ole bodies.
We have 'something' now, though, that we once did not have.
I mean something that's now alive and tangible (not metaphoric). Not physical, but real none the less. What???

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

We have eternal life of our souls (as we wait for our eternal bodies)
1. Been freed from sin (a soulish desire to sin)

2. Been ensaved to God (In spirit made newly alive, yet in the flesh still failing)

3. Sanctification of the soul that once desired to do nothing but sin but now desires to never sin (while we wait on that of the body that often still fails, to catch up with our souls)

4. In other words. The outcome, Eternal Life of our souls.

 

[Nathan]

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

We have eternal life of our souls (as we wait for our eternal bodies)
1. Been freed from sin (a soulish desire to sin)

2. Been ensaved to God (In spirit made newly alive, yet in the flesh still failing)

3. Sanctification of the soul that once desired to do nothing but sin but now desires to never sin (while we wait on that of the body that often still fails, to catch up with our souls)

4. In other words. The outcome, Eternal Life of our souls.

Well I hope you can stick around to answer some of my questions I posted before? I have a few more also.

If our soles are at this very moment eternal, can sin be present in eternal life?

 

[chessman]

No, we are at this very moment alive to God, not in God. There is a difference.

Colossians 3:3 - For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

 

[chessman]

We shall, "IF"......... There is a condition to it. That is faith.

???
Sorry, but The condition, in this verse of Paul's is not "faith": Here:

5 IF we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall _______ ...

So how does Paul say we have met his conditional here???

Again, Paul (not me) says that We (all of us) have become united with Him in the likeness of His death by having been (past tense) baptized into Christ Jesus. It cannot be stated any plainer.

And he concludes the chapter re-phrasing essentially the same conclusion.

22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God ...

 

[chessman]

If our soles are at this very moment eternal, can sin be present in eternal life?

This question (among other reasons) is why I asked you in the beginning if you were a physicalist.

Paul's view seems to be (and thus it's my view) that there is a different law in the members of our body (physical body) than the law of our mind (soul). These two things (these laws) are at war with each other (though both are in us). The body that sins is at war with the mind that's now alive in God and eternal. One day, though, even the body will become alive in God (and thus eternal).

Romans 7:23 (NADB) but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.​

 

[Nathan]

???
Sorry, but The condition, in this verse of Paul's is not "faith": Here:

5 IF we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall _______ ...

So how does Paul say we have met his conditional here???

Again, Paul (not me) says that We (all of us) have become united with Him in the likeness of His death by having been (past tense) baptized into Christ Jesus. It cannot be stated any plainer.

And he concludes the chapter re-phrasing essentially the same conclusion.

22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God ...

Great question. It begs the (rhetorical) question of why did Paul say IF anyways?

The 'if' in Paul's question is just that. "If" we have. How does a person know "if" they have or not? Its called testing. Peter refers to it as "trials". Jesus said it was "tribulation". Again, to use an analogy, pure gold is not such until the impurities are removed. If there are impurities in Gold, then it cannot be pure Gold. Eternal life is pure life - that is - life without any death. As long as death is present, there cannot be pure life - eternal life.

Regardless, the 'testing' of our faith(the seed of eternal life) is what the 'condition' of "IF" is. Once the testing process is done, then the end comes and we receive that which is pure. Hey, Jesus laid it all out for us so there is no second guessing.


Matthew 24:3-14
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Saved from what? When you are at the end, what is left to be saved? Body - Soul? We know the body dies, so that only leaves us with one option.

 

[chessman]

Well I hope you can stick around to answer some of my questions I posted before?

Oh, I can stick around, the question is can this thread.

I'll rescan for any unanswered questions of yours, but if I've missed answering any it is not intentional.

 

[Nathan]

This question (among other reasons) is why I asked you in the beginning if you were a physicalist.

Paul's view seems to be (and thus it's my view) that there is a different law in the members of our body (physical body) than the law of our mind (soul). These two things (these laws) are at war with each other (though both are in us). The body that sins is at war with the mind that's now alive in God and eternal. One day, though, even the body will become alive in God (and thus eternal).

Romans 7:23 (NADB) but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.​

I honestly will have to google that because I am unsure what it is. But I doubt I am.

Do you think that sins are a flesh thing and not a soul thing?

 

[Nathan]

Oh, I can stick around, the question is can this thread.

I'll rescan for any unanswered questions of yours, but if I've missed answering any it is not intentional.

I think we are doing well. No harsh tones I can detect, seems to be a good conversation to me.

 

[chessman]

Regardless, the 'testing' of our faith(the seed of eternal life) is what the 'condition' of "IF" is.

Paul's conditional is answered from the Text of this chapter itself, plain and simply stated. I don't have a question as to what the conditional is. He told us what it is. And it isn't 'faith' nor is it "testing".

Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?​

Sorry.

Rom 6:5 (NASB) For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection ​

If X then Y

X = have been (past tense) baptized into His death.
Y = we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection.

 

[chessman]

I think we are doing well. No harsh tones I can detect, seems to be a good conversation to me.

Yes, I've enjoyed speaking with you about Romans 6 and laying my reasoning out for your polite criticisms. Thanks.

 

[Nathan]

Paul's conditional is answered from the Text of this chapter itself, plain and simply stated. I don't have a question as to what the conditional is. He told us what it is. And it isn't 'faith' nor is it "testing".

Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?​

Sorry.

Rom 6:5 (NASB) For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection ​

If X then Y

X = have been (past tense) baptized into His death.
Y = we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection.

Interesting, you leave out the variable in the equation.

Rom 6:4 - We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

The "if" in the following verse is "if" we are walking in newness of life. In other words, if we truly were united with Him in the 'likeness' of His death, then according to the previous verse, that will show itself in the walking of newness of life. How do we know 'if' we are walking in the newness of life? The testing of our faith.

2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

1 Thessalonians 2:4 - but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please man, but to please God who tests our hearts.

Hebrews 3:6-14
Christ is faithful over God's house as ya son. And we are his house, if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,

“Today, if you hear his voice,

do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,

on the day of testing in the wilderness,

where your fathers put me to the test

and saw my works for forty years.

Therefore I was provoked with that generation,

and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart;

they have not known my ways.’

As I swore in my wrath,

‘They shall not enter my rest.’”

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

You do realize that Israel was "saved" out of Egypt, and then went into the wilderness for 'testing' right? The writers of the NT understood this to be the same for those in Christ.

Again, I would ask - Do you believe sin is only a matter of the flesh, or a choice of the soul?

 

[chessman]

Interesting, you leave out the variable in the equation.

So your view is that Paul is saying in this verse that us "walking in the newness of life" is a variable thing? Our walking the newness of life is really a test of our faith?

And Paul expects the readers of his Romans letter to know this from 2 Cor, 1 Thess and Hebrews use of "testing" and being "in the faith"?

You do realize that Paul never even mentions a "test" or even "faith" in Romans 6, right?

What he mentions is having been baptized, though.

 

[chessman]

You do realize that Israel was "saved" out of Egypt, and then went into the wilderness for 'testing' right?

yes.

Do you believe sin is only a matter of the flesh, or a choice of the soul?

Sin, a matter the flesh, of a newness of life believer (that is to say a newness of spirit believer) is more a matter of "war" (Paul's word not mine) between the not yet new flesh (the ole flesh) and the newly born soul (mind). It's more of a matter of service to our new Master than it is a "choice of the soul" to use your dichotomy.

Paul's view seems to be (and thus it's my view) that there is a different law in the members of our body (physical body) than the law of our mind (soul). These two things (these laws) are at war with each other (though both are in us). The body that sins is at war with the mind that's now alive in God and eternal. One day, though, even the body will become alive in God (and thus eternal).

Romans 7:23 (NADB) but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.​

Romans 7:6 (NASB) But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
​

I'd like to ask another question of your view:

Rom 7:20 NASB) But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
​

After reading Romans 5-7 (and in particular verse 7:20) on your view, if a newness in life believer sins, is it the flesh doing the sin or is it the newness of spirit mind choosing to sin? Or both?

 

[Nathan]

So your view is that Paul is saying in this verse that us "walking in the newness of life" is a variable thing? Our walking the newness of life is really a test of our faith?

And Paul expects the readers of his Romans letter to know this from 2 Cor, 1 Thess and Hebrews use of "testing" and being "in the faith"?

You do realize that Paul never even mentions a "test" or even "faith" in Romans 6, right?

What he mentions is having been baptized, though.

I do realize it is not talked about in the 6th chapter, but he also didn't have the letter written, with the intention, of just reading part of it.

I actually think that the book of Romans contains all there is to know about the Gospel. Meaning, if I could choose one book only to keep out of all the NT, it would be the book of Romans. (Even though I love the Book of Hebrews also)

Paul already covered, in chapter 2, when the receiving of eternal life will be. He presumed that those reading the letter would not start halfway through, but at the beginning.

Romans 2:6-16
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality,
he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.
For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

We can just understand better what all this 'faith' stuff is about if we look at the other NT letters. But we can see, just from the one book alone, that God does require faith - and that eternal life is given at the end of all things - when we are revealed.

Romans 3:20-26
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Our faith, rather, the gift of faith, is what we have inside us - that faith is what assures us of eternal life.

Romans 5:15-21
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul wasn't trying to pull a switcheroo in the 6th chapter, he was simply building on all he said before then.

Again, I ask, do you believe sin is only a flesh thing, or does a persons soul choose? Its important to ask yourself this question, because until you answer it you cannot be assured of eternal life.

 

[Nathan]

Sin, a matter the flesh, of a newness of life believer (that is to say a newness of spirit believer) is more a matter of "war" (Paul's word not mine) between the not yet new flesh (the ole flesh) and the newly born soul (mind). It's more of a matter of service to our new Master than it is a "choice of the soul" to use your dichotomy.

I'll get to your other question in a minute, but I need some clarification on your statement. Is sin a choice of us, or a choice made for us?

If its a choice of us, then can our flesh decide for us to sin?

If its a choice made for us, then who is making us sin?

 

[Nathan]

After reading Romans 5-7 (and in particular verse 7:20) on your view, if a newness in life believer sins, is it the flesh doing the sin or is it the newness of spirit mind choosing to sin? Or both?

I say that the soul sins period. My body cannot control my mind. My mind cannot control my soul. Therefore, there is only one thing in control of who I am, and that is my soul. God has said;

Leviticus 17:11 - For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.

Sin cannot be committed by anything other than a soul. You cannot tell a lie and say, 'my mouth said that'. Or dwell on coveting something and say, 'my mind did that'. Your flesh does indeed draw you and entice you - but your soul is what sins.

That is why Paul so desperately tells us;

Romans 8:5-11
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

We, our soul, has a choice now. It did not before, when we were enslaved to sin, but now we do have a choice - we can set our mind to serve God, or to serve our flesh.

So it is our soul that makes the choice who to serve - and when we sin.

 

[Nathan]

chessman
Do you see why it is important to know what sin is and what 'part' of us sins - in order for us to understand eternal life?

 

[chessman]

chessman
Do you see why it is important to know what sin is and what 'part' of us sins - in order for us to understand eternal life?

Yes.

 

[chessman]

Paul already covered, in chapter 2, when the receiving of eternal life will be.

It's never been my position that our mortal bodies (ole flesh) is given immortality until the day of Judgment.

Romans 2:5-7 (NASB) But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
​

There is zero conflict with immortality (eternal life given to newly raised mortal bodies) on the day of Judgment and eternal life being the benefit/outcome of newly (freed from sin) souls being given eternal life now. I've addressed this previously.

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. ​

Only physicalist have a huge contradiction between chapter 2 and chaper 6.

eternal life is given at the end of all things - when we are revealed.

Roman 3 is a crystal clear teaching of us believers presently receiving the righteousness of God "now" (not later).

Romans 3:21-22 (NASB) But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; ​

Is it your opinion that a believers' ole flesh has received the righteousness of God, or rather our souls have received the very righteousness of the Holy Spirit (God)?

Our faith, rather, the gift of faith, is what we have inside us - that faith is what assures us of eternal life.

Yes, that gift of faith we have inside us (in our souls) is what assures us of eternal life.

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh,

Do you think Paul is speaking of a believer in this portion or is he speaking of unbelievers?

Leviticus 17:11 - For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life

Is the "you" here someone believing in Christ's blood for their atonement or someone believing in the blood of animal flesh/blood. And what does this have to do with Rom 6:22 saying that we have our outcome?

Sin cannot be committed by anything other than a soul.

Galatians 5:19-20 (NASB) Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
​

What has "been freed from sin", on your view?