Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[chessman]

This is hard chessman. Because I would agree that dead = not alive, but I also would say that dead is used metaphorically in the Bible, to indicate an inability to do something.

I do not disagree that "dead" is used metaphorically in the Bible and in particular by Paul throughout Romans and his other letters. Paul learned to use metaphor from the Master at it. But at it's fundamental level, the word means something. Yes, metaphors used in sentences use literal words to point to a non-literal meaning (I am the door, etc.). But, we all know what a door means (or at least we should). I've continually been surprised at people that simply do not (or refuse to) acknowledge what "dead" means. The word, not the metaphor.

So we have to define "dead" when we come to a passage in its context.

I disagree. We need to define the meaning of the passage when we come to it, using some type of basis for the word "dead" (even when it's used metaphorically).

 

[Nathan]

Chessman,
Do you know any foreign language?
You can't learn it by googling it.

If you think the aorist tense is easy to understand and simple, then you don't know it very well.
We don't have enough initials after our names to deal with this.
Maybe you do. I doubt it though. From what you post about it.

I already answered about the soul at preconception. You'll come across it eventually.

You like google? Here:

Aorist (/ˈeɪ.ərᵻst/; abbreviated AOR) verb forms usually express perfective aspect and refer to past events, similar to a preterite. Ancient Greek grammar had the aorist form, and the grammars of other Indo-European languages and languages influenced by the Indo-European grammatical tradition, such as Middle Persian, Sanskrit, Armenian, the South Slavic languages, and Georgian also have forms referred to as aorist.

The word comes from Ancient Greek aóristos "indefinite",[1] as the aorist was the unmarked (default) form of the verb, and thus did not have the implications of the imperfective aspect, which referred to an ongoing or repeated situation, or the perfect, which referred to a situation with a continuing relevance; instead it described an action "pure and simple".[2]

Because the aorist was the unmarked aspect in Ancient Greek, the term is sometimes applied to unmarked verb forms in other languages, such as the habitual aspect in Turkish.[3]
Wikipedia


Most tell me it means an action that was taken in the past and continues to the future.
The above disputes that.
In fact, that is not what the aorist tense is.
It describes an action, but does not describe when it happened - that must be gleaned.

Anyway, we're talking through our teeth here.
We can use our English bible to discuss --- we don't need to know any Greek.

Spot on Wondering. As I said before, the Aorist tense is the hardest to understand/translate. However, the other Greek tenses are much 'easier'(relatively) to grasp. When looking at words in the Aorist tense, context is crucial.

Greek does help. Don't close your heart to it. Think about it. God chose to have the Bible written in that language. God does not do things without a purpose. So there is a purpose it is written in Greek.

I'm not saying at all someone has to know Greek to have faith. But it does play a part when you are defending your faith to others who also look at the Greek language - and it can help when you are explaining something about the faith to those who cannot see something.

 

[FreeGrace]

Since you refuse to quote the scripture here it again, the whole scripture, that is Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

I've quoted it many times. So what that I usually only quote a phrase? How does anything ELSE in the verse change the phrase I do quote? That hasn't been shown. Not even a little bit.

You seem to skip over the part that says the wages of sin is death.

I expect all believers to understand that. Completely.

You leave out the part that says "in Christ Jesus our Lord".

So what? How does that change the FACT that eternal life is STILL a gift of God? It doesn't. Not even a little bit.

I think you're straining at gnats.

Once a person is in Christ Jesus, they must remain in Christ Jesus or be cast into the fire and burned.[/QUTOE]
I have repeatedly explained that verse. Which has NO reference to loss of salvation, as you've claimed.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
JLB

That's about fellowship, not relationship. Which has been explained.

Since Jesus said that those who have RECEIVED eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28, I cannot accept your idea that salvation can be lost.

 

[Nathan]

I do not disagree that "dead" is used metaphorically in the Bible and in particular by Paul throughout Romans and his other letters. I learned to use metaphor from the Master at it. But at it's fundamental level, the word means something. Yes, metaphors used in sentences use literal words to point to a non-literal meaning (I am the door, etc.). But, we all know what a door means (or at least we should). I've continually been surprised at people that simply do not (or refuse to) acknowledge what "dead" means. The word, not the metaphor.


I disagree. We need to define the meaning of the passage when we come to it, using some type of basis for the word "dead" (even when it's used metaphorically).

Ok then, lets move on.

Do you believe "alive to God" means eternal life in God? As it relates to Romans 6:22

 

[chessman]

We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.

How about here in the underlined portion of this verse. Did Paul have eternal life in mind by saying "never die again, death no longer has dominion over Him (Jesus)?

 

[FreeGrace]

Could you please study the Baha'i faith by going to links and then come back here and tell us all about it?

No thank you.

That would be interesting.

I'm not.

Could one learn about the Christian faith by going to links?

They might understand what the Bible says. ;)

 

[GodsGrace]

Spot on Wondering. As I said before, the Aorist tense is the hardest to understand/translate. However, the other Greek tenses are much 'easier'(relatively) to grasp. When looking at words in the Aorist tense, context is crucial.

Greek does help. Don't close your heart to it. Think about it. God chose to have the Bible written in that language. God does not do things without a purpose. So there is a purpose it is written in Greek.

I'm not saying at all someone has to know Greek to have faith. But it does play a part when you are defending your faith to others who also look at the Greek language - and it can help when you are explaining something about the faith to those who cannot see something.

I agree.

I'm saying that normal folk can't deal with the Greek and misunderstand a lot due to it.

Like OSAS.

The aorist tense is believed to mean that an action was taken IN THE PAST, and IS CONT'D IN THE FUTURE.

See? So they think they know what the aorist tense means and make their doctrine depend on incorrect usage.
So context is crucial. But who looks at context? People change it around to make it mean what they want it to mean.

That's all I'm saying. I know about translating languages and the difficulties that come with it.
And the benefits.

 

[Nathan]

How about here in the underlined portion of this verse. Did Paul have eternal life in mind by saying "never die again, death no longer has dominion over Him (Jesus)?

Definitely, Paul was speaking of Eternal Life. Notice the context;

Romans 6:9-10
We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.

Christ had to die, and be raised, for the power of sin to be broken. We receive this power through faith. So that, we know, that when we also die and are raised, we will never die again - just like Christ.

 

[JLB]

This charge has yet to be shown. Where have I misquoted any Scripture?

Yes it has been shown and everyone sees just how belligerent you are in continually refusing to be honest about what the whole verse says from Romans 6:23.

• Just because you deny what the scriptures say, doesn't make them go away.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

1. You leave out the part that says the wages of sin is death.
2. You leave out the part that says "in Christ Jesus our Lord".

...and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:19

• A person can be "in" the book of life, then later, because they "take away from the words of the book" them themselves can be taken away from the book of Life.

In the Book = Eternal Life
Taken out of the Book = Eternal Death


Once a person is in Christ Jesus, they must remain in Christ Jesus or be cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



JLB

 

[Nathan]

I think, maybe, that the confusion surrounds the disregarding of the first phrase said in the verse.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We see that Paul is contrasting two things. Death and Life.

Why do we say that sin leads to death, but the 'gift' of God doesn't lead to life?

Instead, we make the statement of Paul mean what we want it to mean. We say sin leads to death, but the gift doesn't lead to life - it is life. Why would we ignore the most simple and basic grammar that is shown here?

 

[Nathan]

Let me pose a question - to anyone.

Have unbelievers, still alive on the earth, 'received' their wages of sin yet?

 

[chessman]

Do you believe "alive to God" means eternal life in God? As it relates to Romans 6:22

Yes! You don't??? That is, Eternal life of our souls (but not the body just yet). Why??? Here's why:

1. It means something. That is, Paul meant something by saying "alive to God". He had something in mind. What???

2. Technically (all bias aside), it's comes very close to being the very phrase "eternal life" to begin with.
Eternal in Greek cares a meaning of: "the unique quality (reality) of God's life at work in the believer"
http://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm

"God's life at work in the believer" compares to "alive to God" very closely, IMO.

But even more, Compare 6:11 with 6:22 (and remember, you just agreed that 6:10 [edit 6:9] was speaking of "eternal life" even though the exact phrase wasn't used there).

11 Even so consider yourselves to (be dead to sin), but (alive to God in Christ Jesus).

22 But now having been (freed from sin and enslaved to God), you derive resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, (eternal life).
​

I mean really does not, "dead to sin" at least come close to "freed from sin" in the context of Christ's death and burial as compared to our baptism? It certainly does to me.

Same thing (at least to me) "alive to God in Christ" versus "eternal life". Same meaning, to me, essentially. But, yes, they are not exact copies of each other (word for word).

I could go on with more evidences for why I believe 6:11's "alive to God" compares to 6:22 "eternal life" but I'll keep it to a minimum for now and see what you think.

​

 

[Nathan]

But even more, Compare 6:11 with 6:22 (and remember, you just agreed that 6:10 was speaking of "eternal life" even though the exact phrase wasn't used there).

11 Even so consider yourselves to (be dead to sin), but (alive to God in Christ Jesus).

22 But now having been (freed from sin and enslaved to God), you derive resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, (eternal life).
​

I mean really does not, "dead to sin" at least come close to "freed from sin" in the context of Christ's death and burial as compared to our baptism? It certainly does to me.

Same thing (at least to me) "alive to God in Christ" versus "eternal life". Same meaning, to me, essentially. But, yes, they are not exact copies of each other (word for word).

I could go on with more evidences for why I believe 6:11's "alive to God" compares to 6:22 "eternal life" but I'll keep it to a minimum for now and see what you think.

I know exactly what I agreed with, and that was verse 9 - not 10. However, because of verse 9(Christ rose from the dead) - yes, He does serve God in His eternal life.

However, Paul does not say this is so with us. Primarily because we have not risen from the dead. Here is where Paul uses the metaphoric language. We have to "consider" ourselves..... Why do we have to consider our selves if it was already done? Do you know the definition of "consider"?

Romans 6:11 - So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

"Consider"
λογίζομαι logízomai, log-id'-zom-ahee; middle voice from G3056; to take an inventory, i.e. estimate (literally or figuratively):—conclude, (ac-)count (of), +despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).

Let me ask you this. When you wake up in the morning, and are driving to work, do you have to consider that you are alive and breathing? Or do you know you are because its what you are doing?

 

[Nathan]

Just a little more 'light' reading on the word consider.

consider (v.)
late 14c., from Old French considerer (13c.) "reflect on, consider, study," from Latin considerare "to look at closely, observe," perhaps literally "to observe the stars," from com- "with" (see com-) + sidus (genitive sideris) "constellation" (see sidereal).

Perhaps a metaphor from navigation, but more likely reflecting Roman obsession with divination by astrology. Tucker doubts the connection with sidus, however, because it is "quite inapplicable to desiderare," and suggests derivation instead from the PIE root of English side meaning "stretch, extend," and a sense for the full word of "survey on all sides" or "dwell long upon." Related: Considered; considering.

 

[Nathan]

Lets put the pieces of Paul's seemingly puzzle together.

Romans 2:2-8
We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
He will render to each one according to his works:to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,there will be wrath and fury.

Romans 6:19-23
I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Do we see the parallel? Does Paul double talk here? Does he first say that God is going to render to each one, on that day of judgement - wrath and fury for the wicked, and eternal life for the righteous? So if God gives it then, how do we also receive it now?

I do not think Paul is double talking, because he does clearly define this 'time' as "the end" in the 6th chapter. That is when we get eternal life. So, again, if we get it then, then how do we have it now? Can eternal life be divided, broken up in pieces?

 

[chessman]

I know exactly what I agreed with, and that was verse 9 - not 10.

Sorry, v9, not 10. But we seem to agree that it is not necessary for Paul to use the exact phrase "eternal life" when speaking of or about it, was my point. But speaking of v10; the phrase there; ("but the life that He lives, He lives to God") would you also agree that "the life He lives" is a reference to the 'Eternal Life' Paul is speaking of in v9 (having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him?
[And yes, I am aware that Paul is talking about Jesus (not us) in these verse.]

Paul does not say this is so with us.

"How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"
"Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."
"For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, ..."
"that our old self was crucified with Him"
etc.

Primarily because we have not risen from the dead.

Our bodies have not risen from the dead, true. However, "our old self was crucified with Him", right?
And "certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection", right?
Our souls are now (this very day) "alive in God", right?

Why do we have to consider our selves if it was already done?

Because we are learning.

Do you know the definition of "consider"?

Yes.

When you wake up in the morning, and are driving to work, do you have to consider that you are alive and breathing?

No.
But God has to remind me ever so often (the mornings are the best times) to "consider myself to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus". This old body simply forgets that I am alive to God at times.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is how the Bible explains it:
Rom 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

I believe this verse refutes the OSNAS view.

Amazing.
Even after all this time you still don't even know the non-OSAS argument.

But this is exactly a demonstration of how indoctrinations work that I've been talking about all along.
Indoctrinations not only blind the eyes to the truth, they make it so a person can't even understand the opposing argument.
Just as hyper-grace will not be able to see the truth, neither will it be able to even understand the argument to begin with. That's how powerful false teachings can be in a person.

Since you have deliberately and consistently rejected the warnings to not lead little one's who believe in Christ into stumbling you're on your own from here. You have nothing left to look forward to but the wrath of God reserved for the enemies of God:

"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. " (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB)

At this point you would do well to at least go back to the traditional OSAS stance where the 'believer' who stops believing never really believed to begin with. At least your're safe from the Judgment of leading a believer into unbelief with that stance.

 

[Nathan]

This old body simply forgets that I am alive to God at times.

Bingo. Christ does not have that body anymore. That's why Paul speaks of Him as such.

We do have that body still, and so we have to consider ourselves to be like what Christ is.

Why? Because, we see the promise of this eternal life by faith. Why is it by faith if we already have it? Do I have faith that my wife is my wife, or do I know she is my wife because it is a reality? I do not have to consider her my wife, I simply know she is my wife.

We were indeed crucified with Christ - metaphorically. Not literally. That was 2000 years ago. This is metaphoric language, analogies, that Paul is using. In order to grasp this faith, that God gives us, we have to grasp the idea that Christ died for us, and that in that death He paid for our sins.

Also, again metaphorically, Christ rose from the dead literally. That was 2000 years ago. We did not physically rise from the dead, because we were not even alive then. However, we can consider the fact that since He rose from the dead - to eternal life - so also will we likewise one day die and rise to eternal life.

In the mean time, this faith of these things, that God gives us, should make us consider the manner in which we walk.

Here is the rub. The reason we need to consider these things is because its not natural for us to just yet - because we have not entered into that eternal state. We want it, we long for it, but we have not reached that state yet. So we must consider ourselves in that state or else we loose faith and hope. Then we will turn away from God and Christ - who is the only eternal life.

 

[Nathan]

Our souls are now (this very day) "alive in God", right?

Feel free to add this in to the previous post, I forgot about the question and left it out.

No, we are at this very moment alive to God, not in God. There is a difference.

Colossians 3:3 - For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Christ is with God. By faith we also are with Him, but its only through faith.

Colossians 3:1-10
If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity,passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

We live a life of faith on the earth now. That's what its all about. If we already have what the outcome of faith is, then there would be no reason to have faith.

2 Timothy 3:14-15
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:3-9
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and lunfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Chessman, is the salvation of our souls the same as eternal life? In other words, can we have actual eternal life without our salvation of our soul?

 

[Nathan]

And "certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection", right?

I forgot to add this question too. :neutral

We shall, "IF"......... There is a condition to it. That is faith.

Galatians 6:7-9
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

We really need to go back to the whole seed/sowing thing. Paul uses this and we should really understand this. The thing a person reaps is not the exact thing that is sown in the ground. It is an 'image' of it. The seed that is sown contains all the necessities to grow into a plant, and then that plant to produce fruit.

You cannot reap a seed, and then say it is an apple. That is an apple seed, not an apple. The seed of eternal life is sown in us, then when the plant is grown, in the 'due season', we reap eternal life.