Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[chessman]

Your OSAS interpretation of the above passage nullifies and contradicts 1 John 2:24

Your claim here is no more correct nor supported with evidence than this one was:

But you are erroneously making 'remaining' an instantaneous event.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But here's a question for you. Let's look at some of John's words that are not IF THEN conditioning statements and answer a question based on them:

John 14:17 (NASB) that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
2 John 1:2 (NASB) for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
When He abides in you, how long will He be in/with you?

Forever.

Now a question for you:

" 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides (continues to remain) in you, you also will abide (continue to remain) in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

What is the condition for him abiding in/with you forever?

We can not ignore the rest of John's teaching about the abiding that is forever. But that is exactly what OSAS does.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your claim here is no more correct nor supported with evidence than this one was:

We looked at the definition of the words 'if' and 'abide' and both make it impossible for what you said about 1 John 2:24 NASB to be true.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

" 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides (continues to remain) in you, you also will abide (continue to remain) in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

Your interpretation of this verse is saying that John 'didn't really' mean it when he said 'if you remain in the truth you will remain in the Son' because you're insisting that you will still remain in the Son even if you no longer remain in the truth. You can't just decide a verse 'doesn't really' mean what it says but actually means something else directly contrary to what is being said.

 

[chessman]

We can not ignore the rest of John's teaching about the abiding that is forever. But that is exactly what OSAS does.

I've ignored nothing.

What is the condition for him abiding in/with you forever?

The condition is met by: what you heard from the beginning (The Son of God, the Word of God, who is eternal and cannot deny Himself) abiding (remaining) in you!

1 John 2:14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. ​

Your interpretation of this verse is saying that John 'didn't really' mean it when he said 'if you remain in the truth you will remain in the Son' because you're insisting that you will still remain in the Son even if you no longer remain in the truth.

No my interpretation of this verse is NOT saying that John didn't really mean it ...

You are saying my interpretation is such-an-such, over and over and getting it wrong. Even though it's against the rules of this forum and I've repeatedly told you that is NOT my interpretation that abide is instantaneous, you just keep thinking it is. Interesting.

You can't just decide a verse 'doesn't really' mean what it says but actually means something else directly contrary to what is being said.

John has said zero things that are contrary to each other. Nor have I said anything contrary to what John has said.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The condition is met by: what you heard from the beginning (The Son of God, the Word of God, who is eternal and cannot deny Himself) abiding (remaining) in you!

1 John 2:14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

According to John, what happens when the condition is no longer being met and the word you heard in the beginning is not remaining in you?

 

[chessman]

John 14:17 (NASB) that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

2 John 1:2 (NASB) for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: ​

When He abides in you, how long will He be in/with you? Answer = forever.

Then what happens when the condition is no longer being met and the word you heard in the beginning is not remaining in you?

What verse/passage of Scripture are you referring to in this question?

 

[Nathan]

John 14:17 (NASB) that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

2 John 1:2 (NASB) for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: ​

When He abides in you, how long will He be in/with you? Answer = forever.


What verse/passage of Scripture are you referring to in this question?

Simple truth is He is in us forever unless we deny Him. Then He will deny us.

The simple fact He will not leave us on His own accord does not negate the fact He will if we deny Him.

If we deny the truth then the truth is not in us any longer. Doesn't mean the truth is not around us, just that it is no longer in us.

We also know it is a continual denial, not an instantaneous one time event that is met, otherwise Peter would be denied by Christ.

 

[chessman]

Simple truth is He is in us forever unless we deny Him. Then He will deny us.

What verse are you referencing here?

 

[Nathan]

What verse are you referencing here?

2 Timothy 2:12 (ESV)
if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

 

[Nathan]

What verse are you referencing here?

Just in case the other one is not clear enough;

Colossians 1:21 (ESV) 21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,

Colossians 1:22 (ESV) 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,

Colossians 1:23 (ESV) 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

According to John, what happens when the condition is no longer being met and the word you heard in the beginning is not remaining in you?

What verse/passage of Scripture are you referring to in this question?

This one of course. The one we've been debating all along:
" 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides (continues to remain) in you, you also will abide (continue to remain) in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

You say the condition for 'remaining' in Christ got satisfied once and for all the moment the abiding of the word started in the beginning. So tell us what happens if the word you heard in the beginning stops remaining in a person.

Obviously, according to John, that person has stopped fulfilling the condition necessary for remaining in Christ and they will no longer remain in Christ. But since, for you, that grates against OSAS beliefs you have to explain how the person who no longer meets the condition for remaining in Christ, because the word they first heard no longer remains in them, somehow still remains in Christ. That would completely contradict and nullify the passage.

 

[MarkT]

This one of course. The one we've been debating all along:
" 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides (continues to remain) in you, you also will abide (continue to remain) in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

You say the condition for 'remaining' in Christ got satisfied once and for all the moment the abiding of the word started in the beginning. So tell us what happens if the word you heard in the beginning stops remaining in a person.

Obviously, according to John, that person has stopped fulfilling the condition necessary for remaining in Christ and they will no longer remain in Christ. But since, for you, that grates against OSAS beliefs you have to explain how the person who no longer meets the condition for remaining in Christ, because the word they first heard no longer remains in them, somehow still remains in Christ. That would completely contradict and nullify the passage.

In the light of John 14:23, to 'abide in' means to 'live in' or to make your 'home' in. From the word 'abode' meaning a place of residence, a dwelling, a home. So if the word lives in you ie. if the word finds a place in your heart or resides in you, then you will live in or reside in the Father and in the Son and they will make their home with you.

 

[FreeGrace]

You yourself have been claiming for months and months that a believer can stop believing.

From your post #549, is this statement:
"Even Hyper-grace doctrine says the truth may not abide in a person forever."

This isn't the same as saying one can stop believing. The truth is Jesus Christ. He said so in John 14:6. And He said that those He gives eternal life will never perish. Why is that? Because the Spirit of Christ will be with us forever, per Jesus in John 14:16.

 

[FreeGrace]

Forever.

Now a question for you:

" 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides (continues to remain) in you, you also will abide (continue to remain) in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

What is the condition for him abiding in/with you forever?

Having believed, from Eph 1:13.

 

[FreeGrace]

According to John, what happens when the condition is no longer being met and the word you heard in the beginning is not remaining in you?

Paul commands believers to stop grieving the Holy Spirit in Eph 4:30, and even noted that we are sealed for the day of redemption. Do you think that John and Paul taught contrary to one another? I don't.

 

[FreeGrace]

Simple truth is He is in us forever unless we deny Him. Then He will deny us.

From 2 Tim 2:12, the question is: deny us WHAT? From the context, it is "reigning with Him". Not continuing to have salvation.

 

[Nathan]

From 2 Tim 2:12, the question is: deny us WHAT? From the context, it is "reigning with Him". Not continuing to have salvation.

I've never met someone who believes we can deny Christ, and still live in eternity with Him.

You do realize denying Him is denying the Spirit right? And what do we know about denial of the Spirit?

Matthew 12:31 (ESV)
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

 

[FreeGrace]

I've never met someone who believes we can deny Christ, and still live in eternity with Him.

Travel in small circles, maybe?

The Bible says that the gift of God is eternal life in Rom 6:23. The Bible says that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.
The Bible says that we are born again of imperishable seed in 1 Pet 1:23.
The Bible says that those given eternal life by Jesus will never perish in John 10:28.
The Bible says that those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24.

Any questions?

You do realize denying Him is denying the Spirit right?

But now you've been given what the Bible says about the gifts of God; one being the gift of eternal life.

And what do we know about denial of the Spirit?

Matthew 12:31 (ESV)
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Sorry, but this verse doesn't apply here. That sin was specific to what the Pharisees did by claiming the miracles that Jesus performed and which they SAW with their own eyes was done by the power of the devil.

So that sin isn't even possible today.

 

[Nathan]

Travel in small circles, maybe?

The Bible says that the gift of God is eternal life in Rom 6:23. The Bible says that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.
The Bible says that we are born again of imperishable seed in 1 Pet 1:23.
The Bible says that those given eternal life by Jesus will never perish in John 10:28.
The Bible says that those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24.

Any questions?


But now you've been given what the Bible says about the gifts of God; one being the gift of eternal life.


Sorry, but this verse doesn't apply here. That sin was specific to what the Pharisees did by claiming the miracles that Jesus performed and which they SAW with their own eyes was done by the power of the devil.

So that sin isn't even possible today.

Obviously my circles are not small enough.

Matthew 10:33 (ESV)
but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Is there a doubt that denying Christ returns to us with our denial by Him?

But yet you seem to think that those He denies to the Father will still live with the Father eternally?

If this wasn't such an off the wall belief I'd do a poll to see just how many think denial of Christ still means everlasting life.

Do you really believe Jesus forces Himself onto people who do not want Him?