Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

You will have to post the actual scripture and it's context for all to study and discuss.
JLB

Why should I bother? You've posted all the context for both Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29 and failed to show that eternal life is NOT irrevocable.

You've basically proven me right by the failure to prove me wrong.

 

[FreeGrace]

The gifts and calling are irrevocable.

Yes, BOTH the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

The calling and gifts are still available but must be believed.

This doesn't change the fact that eternal life, which is a gift of God, is irrevocable.

Jews who are enemies of the Gospel do not have eternal life, that's the point.

No, the point of Rom 11:29 is that the gifts of God are irrevocable, as is the calling of God. Both are irrevocable.

Yes the Jews still have the opportunity to receive eternal life if they do not continue in unbelief, but respond to the calling of repentance by believing.

Rom 11:29 isn't about "opportunity". It's about actual gifts. Which are irrevocable. Including ALL the gifts previously noted and described by Paul in Romans before he wrote 11:29.

1. spiritual gifts in 1:11
2. justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23

This is irrefutable.

 

[FreeGrace]

The point we are discussing is that unsaved Jews who are enemies of the Gospel, certainly do not have eternal life.

There is no way for this truth to be explained away.

And no one has even tried to explain this fact away.

But the point is that Rom 11:29 isn't about Jews who don't have the gift of eternal life. It's about the FACT that God's gifts ARE irrevocable.

Is your argument that eternal life isn't a gift of God?

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:28-29

So, how does v.28 make the gift of eternal life revocable? Please explain.

 

[JLB]

And no one has even tried to explain this fact away.

But the point is that Rom 11:29 isn't about Jews who don't have the gift of eternal life. It's about the FACT that God's gifts ARE irrevocable.

Is your argument that eternal life isn't a gift of God?

Not true at all.

The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, not just the gifts.

The context is showing that calling of salvation is still available to them.

You have left of the part of the scripture that shows both the context and the subject of the verse, then left out what the verse actually says, which is the gifts and calling are irrevocable.

Then you you try and paste together this partial verse with another partial verse, about eternal life, in which you leave out the part that shows that eternal life is "in" Christ Jesus.

(Edited by staff)

Here is what you are attempting to teach us:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. For the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.

Your cut and paste, mix and match Gospel is not found in the Bible.


JLB

 

[Nathan]

2 Tim 2:12 is clear AND trustworthy.

I trust the Word of God to be true, Scripture! To include the whole fact and trustworthy statement that salvation is in Christ Jesus (the Word of God) and is eternal glory, not temporary. Why??? Because He cannot deny Himself.

2 Timothy 2:10-13 (NASB) For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. ​

Jesus WILL deny those who have not obtained salvation in Christ Jesus i.e. those that deny Him. Just as true as those who have obtained salvation in Him HAVE died with Him AND will (not might) live with Him (and the Father). He remains faithful. He cannot deny Himself.

So those who deny Him, anyone who denies Him, will be denied by Him correct? I just want to make sure I'm clear on your stance because you added in a bunch of other stuff.

I find it interesting - maybe you did not catch it(?) - that Paul says if "we" deny Him. Who is the "we" Paul is speaking of?

 

[Nathan]

When Jesus left earth. Please consider the context. The Pharisees saw with their own eyes the miracles of Jesus.

Was it not the Spirit blasphemy that was unforgivable, not the blasphemy of Jesus?

 

[chessman]

So those who deny Him, anyone who denies Him, will be denied by Him correct?

Correct. Absolutely. And does Christ deny Himself??? No.

Paul says if "we" deny Him. Who is the "we" Paul is speaking of?

Actually, no Paul didn't say "we". It's a translation add to these verbs. Look it up. It's "interesting".

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_timothy/2.htm

For example, Transliteration: sunapothnéskó is translated "we have died together [with Him]"

So the answer to who "we" is, "we" = us who have died with Him and Jesus.

If we have died together, then we ARE together with Him. That's why it's so trustworthy of a statement.

Jesus cannot deny himself. Thus, we (all those who have died with Him) WILL (not might) reign with Him.

If Jesus could deny Himself, OSNAS would have a point with this passage.

 

[Nathan]

Correct. Absolutely. And does Christ deny Himself??? No.

Actually, no Paul didn't say "we". It's a translation add to these verbs. Look it up. It's "interesting".

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_timothy/2.htm

For example, Transliteration: sunapothnéskó is translated "we have died together [with Him]"

So the answer to who "we" is, "we" = us who have died with Him and Jesus.

If we have died together, then we ARE together with Him. That's why it's so trustworthy of a statement.

Jesus cannot deny himself. Thus, we (all those who have died with Him) WILL (not might) reign with Him.

If Jesus could deny Himself, OSNAS would have a point with this passage.

You skipped over the "we" in the second half of that verse. If you agree that the "we", as it relates to dying, living, and reigning all refer to "us", then would you not also agree that the "we" in 'if we deny Him' refers to "us"?

We cannot say that "we" refers to us - or anyone - then say that the "we" in the last part of the verse does not refer to anyone.

The passage I am referencing, with interpretation added in with brackets.

Ti 2:11-13
The saying is trustworthy, for:
If we[believers] have died with him, we[believers] will also live with him;
if we[believers] endure, we[believers] will also reign with him;
if we[believers] deny him, he also will deny us[believers];
if we[believers] are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

We cannot interpose "unbelievers" into the deny part of the verse. However, we could take out "we" and "believers" and insert "anyone". It would read;

Ti 2:11-13
The saying is trustworthy, for:
If {anyone} have died with him, [anyone] will also live with him;
if {anyone} endure, {anyone} will also reign with him;
if {anyone} deny him, he also will deny {anyone};
if {anyone} are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

Again, we cannot take one part of that passage, out of the complete context, and replace the meaning of it, by saying one part only applies to some, while other parts apply to others. There is zero reason to say "we" does not apply to all the passage, or "anyone" for that matter.

The point is "someone" has to be the object of all the actions - whoever that someone is, it has to be consistently applied through the whole passage.

 

[FreeGrace]

My question:
"And no one has even tried to explain this fact away.

But the point is that Rom 11:29 isn't about Jews who don't have the gift of eternal life. It's about the FACT that God's gifts ARE irrevocable.

Is your argument that eternal life isn't a gift of God?"

Not true at all.

OK then, it isn't your argument that eternal life isn't a gift of God, but rather, IS a gift of God.

So why don't you agree that eternal life is irrevocable, being that it is a gift of God?

The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, not just the gifts.

Right. I never suggested otherwise. Both are irrevocable. The question is why you don't consider eternal life to be an irrevocable gift?

The context is showing that calling of salvation is still available to them.

Sure. And so it the actual gift of eternal life. Those who believe HAVE that gift, per Jesus' own words in John 5:24.

You have left of the part of the scripture that shows both the context and the subject of the verse, then left out what the verse actually says, which is the gifts and calling are irrevocable.

Not true. No one has shown anything from anywhere in ch 11 that God's irrevocable gifts don't include the gift of eternal life.

Paul sure didn't say that.

Then you you try and paste together this partial verse with another partial verse, about eternal life, in which you leave out the part that shows that eternal life is "in" Christ Jesus.

I have repeatedly acknowledged that the gift of eternal life is ONLY FOR those who "having believed" (aorist) are sealed IN HIM, per Eph 1:13.

Here is what you are attempting to teach us:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. For the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.

Your cut and paste, mix and match Gospel is not found in the Bible.

This is childish. When I cite Rom 6:23, I OF COURSE refer to the whole verse. I, unlike yourself, don't draw lines through words.

What's absolutely wrong is drawing a line through the word "God". I've ALWAYS included that word in my claims.

 

[FreeGrace]

So those who deny Him, anyone who denies Him, will be denied by Him correct? I just want to make sure I'm clear on your stance because you added in a bunch of other stuff.

Just look at the whole verse (2 Tim 2:12).

first part: if we endure, we will reign with Him. iow, IF A, then B.
A is enduring in the faith. B is reigning with Him.

second part: if we deny Him (not enduring in the faith), He will deny us. To stay consistent with the whole verse, what will be denied us is the privilege of reigning with Him.

 

[FreeGrace]

Was it not the Spirit blasphemy that was unforgivable, not the blasphemy of Jesus?

Yep. But recall that everything that Jesus did was by the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet, the Pharisees claimed that His miracles were by the power of the devil.

iow, they attributed the miracles by the Holy Spirit to the devil. That's total blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. They had no excuse. Such a claim is unforgivable.

 

[FreeGrace]

The passage I am referencing, with interpretation added in with brackets.
Ti 2:11-13
The saying is trustworthy, for:
If we[believers] have died with him, we[believers] will also live with him;
if we[believers] endure, we[believers] will also reign with him;
if we[believers] deny him, he also will deny us[believers];
if we[believers] are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

Lines 2 and 3 are v.12. Line 4 is v.13 which proves that this verse cannot be about denying anyone salvation.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be with us forever. So, even if we believers are faithless, which fulfills v.12b by "denying Him", God still remains faithful because He CANNOT DENY HIMSELF. Why is that important? Because God the Holy Spirit resides permanently in every believer, a guaranteed seal for the day of redemption.

 

[chessman]

You skipped over the "we" in the second half of that verse.

No I didn't. You are not listening. Did you even look at the original Greek Text? There is no "we" in the Greek text in any of the verses you just posted. Not a first one or a second one. Every translation of these verbs, is just one big translation of the Greek verbs. It's understood that "we" is needed in the English to convey what Paul was saying (us and Christ). From the context!

The point is "someone" has to be the object of all the actions - whoever that someone is, it has to be consistently applied through the whole passage.

"we" is plural in the English. there is no "someone" (singular) who meets the criteria of these IF THEN verses within this trustworthy statement. And there is no question as to who "we" is. It is those who have died with Christ AND Christ.

The "we" = us who have died with Chirst and Christ Jesus. Inherient in the very Text itself is Christ. If you think Christ can deny Himself, then the "we" inherent in this verb can too.

If you think Christ cannot deny Himself then "we" cannot deny Him either.

 

[JLB]

My question:
"And no one has even tried to explain this fact away.

But the point is that Rom 11:29 isn't about Jews who don't have the gift of eternal life. It's about the FACT that God's gifts ARE irrevocable.

Is your argument that eternal life isn't a gift of God?"

I believe what the scripture teaches us, which is the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

• 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

IOW the gift is knowing or being in Christ Jesus, where eternal life dwells, which is by faith.
I also believe this eternal life is the end result of a life of patient continuance of doing good, as the fruit of holiness.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

I believe eternal life is the hope of those who have been justified by His grace, through which we are heirs.

• that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

Can a person who no longer believes in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, continue to be forgiven of their sins?



JLB

 

[Nathan]

Yep. But recall that everything that Jesus did was by the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet, the Pharisees claimed that His miracles were by the power of the devil.

iow, they attributed the miracles by the Holy Spirit to the devil. That's total blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. They had no excuse. Such a claim is unforgivable.

Is not the same Spirit that did those things, the same Spirit we have?

That would mean the same Spirit could be blasphemed even in this time.

 

[JLB]

My question:
"And no one has even tried to explain this fact away.

But the point is that Rom 11:29 isn't about Jews who don't have the gift of eternal life. It's about the FACT that God's gifts ARE irrevocable.

Is your argument that eternal life isn't a gift of God?"

OK then, it isn't your argument that eternal life isn't a gift of God, but rather, IS a gift of God.

So why don't you agree that eternal life is irrevocable, being that it is a gift of God?


Right. I never suggested otherwise. Both are irrevocable. The question is why you don't consider eternal life to be an irrevocable gift?


Sure. And so it the actual gift of eternal life. Those who believe HAVE that gift, per Jesus' own words in John 5:24.


Not true. No one has shown anything from anywhere in ch 11 that God's irrevocable gifts don't include the gift of eternal life.

Paul sure didn't say that.


I have repeatedly acknowledged that the gift of eternal life is ONLY FOR those who "having believed" (aorist) are sealed IN HIM, per Eph 1:13.


This is childish. When I cite Rom 6:23, I OF COURSE refer to the whole verse. I, unlike yourself, don't draw lines through words.

Can a person who no longer believes in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, continue to be forgiven of their sins?

What's absolutely wrong is drawing a line through the word "God". I've ALWAYS included that word in my claims.

Here is what you are attempting to teach us:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. For the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.

Your cut and paste, mix and match Gospel is not found in the Bible.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This doesn't change the fact that eternal life, which is a gift of God, is irrevocable.

There is no scripture in the bible that says what you claim.


There is only your cut and paste mix and match version.


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. For the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.

Furthermore, eternal life is the gift of God in Christ Jesus.

There is no scripture that says the gift [singular tense] of God is irrevocable.


The gifts and calling are irrevocable, which means that if someone is called to repentance through the Gospel, then by default they do not have the gift [singular tense] of eternal life in Christ Jesus, because they are not in Christ Jesus.

That's why you must distort the context of your mix and match Gospel.



JLB

 

[Nathan]

Just look at the whole verse (2 Tim 2:12).

first part: if we endure, we will reign with Him. iow, IF A, then B.
A is enduring in the faith. B is reigning with Him.

second part: if we deny Him (not enduring in the faith), He will deny us. To stay consistent with the whole verse, what will be denied us is the privilege of reigning with Him.

I don't think it says that. In fact, it does not say He will deny us to reign with Him. Yes, not reigning with Him is a part of His denial of us, but there are many other aspects of denial. We cannot 'deny' the other aspects.

Matthew 10:33 (ESV)
but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

The word used "deny" means to not accept. It does not mean to limit the acceptance. It means to refuse.

 

[Nathan]

No I didn't. You are not listening. Did you even look at the original Greek Text? There is no "we" in the Greek text in any of the verses you just posted. Not a first one or a second one. Every translation of these verbs, is just one big translation of the Greek verbs. It's understood that "we" is needed in the English to convey what Paul was saying (us and Christ). From the context!


"we" is plural in the English. there is no "someone" (singular) who meets the criteria of these IF THEN verses within this trustworthy statement. And there is no question as to who "we" is. It is those who have died with Christ AND Christ.

The "we" = us who have died with Chirst and Christ Jesus. Inherient in the very Text itself is Christ. If you think Christ can deny Himself, then the "we" inherent in this verb can too.

If you think Christ cannot deny Himself then "we" cannot deny Him either.

Yes you are passing over it. It is an implied "we". There has to be a person or thing who is doing what is spoken of.

You seem to think the translations just haphazardly put the "we" in there? It's there for a reason. You would be wise to understand it.

 

[chessman]

You would be wise to understand it.

Yes, you would be wise to understand it, the Text.
Problem is, you keep saying things about the Text that just aren't trure.

For example (for the third and last time):

There has to be a person or thing who is doing what is spoken of.

Again, a person is singular not plural. These verbs are in their 1st person plural form. All of them. "We" = the people who have (past tense) died with Him AND who will live with Him.

The "we" in these verses is there because "we" died with Him and "we" will indeed (not might) also live with Him. It's the same "we" in every verse. Like it or not.

2 Timothy 2:11 (NASB) It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; ​

The "we" in this verse IS the same "we" in the rest of his statement.

And it's not "a person" or a thing. These verbs are 1st person plural, not singular. And they are so for a reason. The reason being, Paul's point:

To teach (the teacable anyway) that; " If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

It's the same "we". Like it or not.