chessman
Member
Correct. That's what I've been saying. Before the event of the condional particle the outcome is uncertain. Once the condition has been met, the outcome is certain.
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Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works
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Correct. That's what I've been saying. Before the event of the condional particle the outcome is uncertain. Once the condition has been met, the outcome is certain.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, once the condition is met the outcome is certain. You have to remain in the truth for the outcome to be certain. The condition is only met if you remain in the word of the truth.
"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB bold mine)
But Hyper/Free Grace doctrine insists that continuing in the word of truth is not a condition for remaining in Jesus/eternal life.
chessman
Member
Bingo! I never said otherwise.
And truth is, the Truth which abides in us will be with us forever.
2 John 1:1-2 (NASB) The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
Jethro Bodine
Member
If you don't satisfy the ongoing condition to remain in the truth you stop satisfying the ongoing condition for remaining in Jesus/ eternal life and you will, obviously, cease to remain in Christ/ eternal life. Remaining in the truth is not a one time event. It is an ongoing event. As long as the ongoing condition of remaining in the word is satisfied the predetermined ongoing outcome of being in eternal life/Jesus will continue.
Do while person remains in truth
RemainInChristEternalLife()
loopStop satisfying the ongoing condition of remaining in the truth and you exit the loop and you will no longer remain in Christ/ eternal life.
Read it again: "If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB bold mine)
'Remaining' is an ongoing condition. And an ongoing condition that must continue in order for the outcome of remaining in Christ to continue. But you are erroneously making 'remaining' an instantaneous event. That's not what remain means.
Jethro Bodine
Member
"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASBbold mine)
'abide' means to continue. To abide is not a reference to a moment in time that gets satisfied, as you are erronoeusly interpreting it in the verse. It means an ongoing thing: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3306&t=KJV
If you remain (abide) in the truth, you will remain (abide) in Jesus/eternal life. That's what abide means--an ongoing remaining in the truth that results in an ongoing remaining in Jesus/eternal life. Stop remaining in the truth and you are no longer satisfying the required condition to remain in Jesus/eternal life.
'abide' means to continue. To abide is not a reference to a moment in time that gets satisfied, as you are erronoeusly interpreting it in the verse. It means an ongoing thing: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3306&t=KJV
If you remain (abide) in the truth, you will remain (abide) in Jesus/eternal life. That's what abide means--an ongoing remaining in the truth that results in an ongoing remaining in Jesus/eternal life. Stop remaining in the truth and you are no longer satisfying the required condition to remain in Jesus/eternal life.
Nathan
Member
Yes, when we are faithless He remains faithful. His faith cannot deny Himself like we can Him. Example: those who die without Christ do so not because He was not faithful to accept them, but rather because they were faithless to accept Him.
The truth is with us so long as we don't deny it. When we deny the truth it can no longer be in us. Reason being, when you deny one thing something else has to take its place. Example: if I have a light on in a room and then turn it off, the light no longer exists - darkness has taken its place.
So enduring is a one time event that can be met, or it's a continual enduring? If I endured a situation one year, then the next I do not endure, have I met that "if" statement? Example: if I married my wife, and then divorced her, I am no longer married to her just because I had at one time met the condition of marriage - correct?
chessman
Member
I know.
That's why God's word says the truth which abides in us will be with us forever.
2 John 1:2 (NASB) for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
That way, it's true. Unconditionally true.
chessman
Member
I asked:
Your answer:
God's word's answer:
Forever.
Your answer:
God's word's answer:
Forever.
2 John 1:2 (NASB) for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
Jethro Bodine
Member
You have to let the truth abide in you.
"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
The 'if' is whether or not the believer will let the truth that abides forever abide in them.
"If (you let) what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB parenthesis mine)
Jethro Bodine
Member
Even Hyper-grace doctrine says the truth may not abide in a person forever. It just makes the mistake of saying that if the truth no longer abides in a person they somehow still abide in Christ/eternal life. But we see that is completely contrary to what John (and Paul) say:
"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
Nathan
Member
That's true, truth is with us forever. Simply because truth is forever.
"If we deny Him, He will deny us". Is that a singular "if" moment in time?
Mike
Member
This sounds like it came straight from the OSNAS handbook. You really surprised me when you said this. It sounds spot on, so how are you using this to defend OSAS. I must say as someone who quietly watches this debate continue, you seem to lose traction here, continuing on with the posts that followed.
chessman
Member
First, It's simply what the Text says. There is no Scripture that I disagree with, including this one. I was asked a question about it because OSNAS brought it up.
But (as with all Texts) here's how it is supportive of OSAS:
2 Timothy 2:11-13 (NASB) It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
It (all four IF THENs) form a trustworthy statement (one single statement, not four). To snip one of the IF THENs away from the others, is clearly to take it out of its context.
Claiming; "if we endure, we will also reign with Him" is no more a trustworthy statement than "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son", is a trustworthy statement. Both are 1/2 truths. But true, nonetheless.
Paul literally requires his readers to understand all four IF THENs as one big trustworthy statement. They go together.
Requiring 'endurance' prior to 'reigning' only makes sense in light of requiring 'death' prior to 'life'.
2 Timothy 2:10 (NASB) For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
Three points about the context:
1. What does Paul (not me or you) mean by "endure"???
2. He's talking about others also "obtaining" salvation, not himself or Timothy or us maintaining our salvation. The reason Paul "endured all things" was NOT to maintain his salvation. It was so others could also obtain theirs!
3. Salvation, which is in Christ Jesus, is eternal glory.
So what does Paul mean by "endure"???
The word literally means to "remain behind".
http://biblehub.com/greek/5278.htm
'Hypo-abide'. Ever heard of 'hyper-grace'??? Well here's a word for you then:
"Endure" = hyper-abide. Literally it was the very thing Paul was doing. He "remained behind" so that others could also be saved.
Ever wonder why God doesn't zap us to Him at our conversion??? Here's why. So that we "endure". So that we remain behind so that others might also obtain salvation.
So reading Paul's whole trustworthy statement with this in mind:
For
if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; [IF we obtain salvation in Him, THEN we will (not might) live with Him]
If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
[IF we remain behind THEN we will also reign with Him]
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
[IF we deny Him THEN he also will deny us;
IF we do not obtain salvation in Him THEN he also will not save us]
If we are faithless, He remains faithful,
[IF we are unconvinced THEN he abides faithful]
569 (apistéō) reveals a person is unconvinced when they should be persuaded by what the Lord has done (offered).
for (in otherwords) He cannot deny Himself.
All four IF THENs can be summarized with "He cannot deny Himself".
The only real question is, has He made His abode in you (or not).
Please cite any source where free grace theology makes this claim.
chessman said: ↑
IF x THEN y
IF we endure THEN we will also regin with Him.
We see the same principle stated in Rom 8:17 - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Here, we see 2 different types of heirs; heirs of God on the basis of being His children, and co-heirs of Christ on the basis of sharing in His sufferings.
To be a co-heir with Christ is the same as reigning with him. And we have to endure, or "share in His sufferings" in order to be a co-heir or reign with Him.
So, 2 Tim 2:12 is about rewards. Totally consistent with OSAS doctrine.
IF x THEN y
IF we endure THEN we will also regin with Him.
2 Tim 2:12a is about reigning with Christ on the condition of enduring. This is not about salvation. It's a reward for enduring. The second part of the verse is about the result of not enduring; such believers will be denied what v.12a is about, which is reigning with Christ.
We see the same principle stated in Rom 8:17 - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Here, we see 2 different types of heirs; heirs of God on the basis of being His children, and co-heirs of Christ on the basis of sharing in His sufferings.
To be a co-heir with Christ is the same as reigning with him. And we have to endure, or "share in His sufferings" in order to be a co-heir or reign with Him.
So, 2 Tim 2:12 is about rewards. Totally consistent with OSAS doctrine.
chessman
Member
Umm, no I'm not making abide (remain) an instantaneous event. To do so would indeed be an error.
Maybe you should reference my post(s) where you think I have stated 'remain' or 'abide' is an instantaneous event. It could be my mistake/typo or lack of clarity OR you could be in error.
I DO NOT think to "abide" is an instantaneous event, in any case.
John 14:16-17 (NASB) I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
Jethro Bodine
Member
You yourself have been claiming for months and months that a believer can stop believing. Of the few thing we agree on, Luke 8:13 NASB is one of them: Jesus is talking about a believer no longer believing.
13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)
The truth (the seed) no longer abides in this person.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Okay, good. Then you can see that the non-instantaneous, but ongoing event of abiding in the truth has to continue in order for the 'if' logic of 1 John 2:24 NASB to work:
" 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides (continues to remain) in you, you also will abide (continue to remain) in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
Jethro Bodine
Member
Your OSAS interpretation of the above passage nullifies and contradicts 1 John 2:24 NASB, so we know John is not teaching OSAS when he says the Spirit will be with you forever. For the two truths to be consistent with each other it's obvious that the abiding forever is conditional on continued believing. But we knew that anyway since John himself says that very thing right in 1 John 2:24 NASB.
chessman
Member
Yes. I never said or claimed otherwise. IF THEN logical statements always 'work' (in 1 John 2:24 and in every other verse and in your computer).
Which, by the way, IF THEN statements are not a DO WHILE loops. Two different syntax with mich different uses, purposes and outcomes.). Most modern logical codes do not even use DO WHILE loops as they are so subject to errors.
But here's a question for you. Let's look at some of John's words that are not IF THEN conditioning statements and answer a question based on them:
John 14:17 (NASB) that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
2 John 1:2 (NASB) for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
When He abides in you, how long will He be in/with you?