So you are saying he sent the letter's he wrote to actual people and not "the Church"?
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Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works
- Thread starter Jim Parker
- Start date
So you are saying he sent the letter's he wrote to actual people and not "the Church"?
If you abide, remain in the Son, then you abide and remain in eternal life.
If you are in the Son, then are disconnected from Him, you are disconnected from eternal life, and are gathered up and thrown into the fire, and poof, you are burned.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
JLB
Yes, Christ has a Bride, not a bunch of brides, so how is it you claim, John wrote to the Church, the Bride of Christ, and also her "sister" Church.
Sounds like you got caught up in your own tangled theory.
JLB
A good point. John Wrote to his churches and the local assemblies that he had charge of(possibly up to 7.)Yes, Christ has a Bride, not a bunch of brides, so how is it you claim, John wrote to the Church, the Bride of Christ, and also her "sister" Church.
Sounds like you got caught up in your own tangled theory.
JLB
Which brings up another good point. John taught solid bible doctrine. And believers who want their ears tickled would not stay with a solid, truthful and in your face bible teaching.
When John said," They were never of us." He was not speaking of if they were believers and a part of the bride of Christ and saved. He was saying they were never apart of believers who were advancing in His Grace and knowledge(doctrinal truth.)
Is it your belief that those who believe, can later stagnate and fall away, if they don't "advance in His grace" and knowledge of doctrinal truth?
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
'If' is a conditional and means it is yet to be determined whether or not they will still have the truth they received in the beginning, which he says determines if they will still have eternal life, Jesus, in them.
"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father" (1 John 2:24 NASB)
"12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)
Paul says the same thing. Salvation is conditional on you retaining the word you received in the beginning:
"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)
Continuing in the faith is the condition for continuing in salvation. If anybody tells a believer that they can renounce the Christian faith and go back to the world and they will still have eternal life, and that believer then does that, the person who brought that stumbling block, destroying God's temple, will himself be destroyed:
" 6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!" (Matthew 18:6-7 NASB)
"17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB)
Jethro Bodine
Member
Then he turns right around and warns the believers he's addressing that IF they continue in what they heard they will continue in Jesus who is eternal life. Salvation is conditional on continuing in the word:
"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
No abiding in what you first heard means no abiding in Jesus/eternal life:
"...His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20 NASB).
"...God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)
These scriptures show that it's impossible to have the eternal life (Jesus) that you are no longer abiding in. Hyper-grace/ Free-grace doctrine is false doctrine.
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chessman
Member
The passage you quoted says nothing about being "disconnected from eternal life".
Do you want to discuss the fact that the Truth of the Son will be with us forever or a passage that explains how branches can/cannot bear fruit?
John 15:4 (NASB) Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
Inserting "eternal life" into a passage about bearing fruit seems more appropriate to another forum than one actually studying God's word.
But since you referenced the passage; We learn that wo different things are required to bear fruit from this passage:
1. You Abide in the Son
2. The Son abides in you.
#1 is covered "forever".
2 John 1:2-3 (NASB) for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
John 15:3 (NASB) You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
We know from 2 John 2-3 and John 15:3 that having the Son abide in us, He does so forever and is cleansing (great point)! Thanks for showing how consistent God's word is.
The question is, do we "abide in the Son" (#2) and thus bear fruit or do we get "taken away"??? Indeed by the fire that's promised for all His branches (fruit bearing pruned ones or not):
John 15:2 (NASB) Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:6 (NASB) If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
Mark 9:49-50a (NASB) “For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good
This is the passage I quoted: If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Do you believe a person has eternal life apart from Jesus Christ?
Those who are "removed from", "cast out of", "disconnected from", as a branch from a vine from which it draws it's life from, will wither and die, and is cast into the fire and burned.
- The person that is "connected to" to the Jesus Christ, has eternal life.
- The person who becomes "disconnected from" Jesus Christ, becomes "disconnected from" eternal life.
Jesus used the branch and the vine to illustrate this kingdom truth.
- He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:12-13
JLB
Dead saints? Was Jesus referencing dead saints here?
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:24 NKJV
Was Paul referencing dead saints here?
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; Colossians 3:12 NKJV
chessman
Member
"If" is a conditional and means the result is determined by either meeting the condition or not. It has nothing to do with 'yet to be determined'.
If x THEN y
This is a universally true logical statement. Just as true when x has occurred in the past, or is occurring in the present or will occur in the future. And I posted the fact that the in the actual verse, the first abide is aorist (a point in time) and the second is future tense. It is that way for a reason. To Abide in the Son at a point in time (any point) results in future abiding with both the Son and the Father. Plain as day.
IF you have died (past) THEN you no longer will live (future)
IF you are dying (presently) THEN you no longer will live (future)
IF you will die (furure) THEN you no longer will live (future)
In otherwords:
IF you die (aorist) THEN you no longer will live future.
Paul uses a different local syntax to make known the same gospel Truth point, yes:
IF x THEN y ELSE z
x = you hold fast the word (presently) which I preached (past) to you
y = you are (presenly) saved by the word he preached (past)
z = you believed (past) in vain
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)
In otherwords, Paul knows that their present salvation AND their present believing was, is and always will be dependent on the Word he preached (past).
Exactly.
The condition that must be met for salvation is to believe.
Those who believe for a while, then longer believe, no longer meet the required condition for salvation, that they once met when they first believed and were saved.
If you believe the unbelieving are still saved, though they no longer believe, the post the scripture that teaches this fantasy.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
Here is Strong's definition for the 'if' in the above verse:
"G1487 and G302; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty:—before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-)soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, (who-)so(-ever). See G3361." https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1437&t=KJV (bold mine)
As can be plainly seen, the 'if' is being used to denote a condition that is not already fixed and determined, but can change. And that being true, John is plainly saying that 'if what you heard in the beginning stays in you, you will stay in the Son and the Father'. It's not even open for debate. It says what it says, and means what it says. Or is this going to be yet another case of the famous OSAS 'it doesn't really mean what it says'?
We see that upon examination your interpretation is not plain as day. But we already knew that just by a simple reading of the passage: The condition for remaining in Christ is that you remain in the word. It's impossible to argue that it 'doesn't really' mean what it says.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Jesus IS eternal life.
If you become disconnected from Christ you are disconnected from eternal life:
"...His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20 NASB).
"...God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)
And as has been shown, Paul and John both teach that staying connected to Christ (and thus, eternal life) is conditional on you staying connected to the word of truth you believed when you first got saved.
The only reasonable and respectable argument that OSAS has is that the believer can never ultimately stop believing. But Hyper/Free Grace doctrine doesn't even have that going for it, for even they acknowledge that a genuine believer can stop believing. It's just that they insist the ex-believer still has eternal life (Christ) even though the ex-believer no longer has Christ. But as we can see for ourselves in the passages above, the argument is simply a profound ignorance of the fact that Christ and eternal life are one and the same thing (see above). Because Christ and eternal life are one and the same thing you can not still have eternal life if you no longer remain in Christ.
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chessman
Member
No. Saints (alive or dead) were not referenced here
Yes, the Colossians were told to put on the humility and meekness that the Holy (saintly) have.
I guess I'm not really following your point or line of questions. How do these passages mean that John did not address this letter to all who know the truth?
2 John 1:1-2 (NASB) The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
Or how does any of the other verses or responses that have been posted since I pointed this passage out mean that those who know the truth, have the truth abiding in is and will be abiding with us forever?
chessman
Member
"If" is a conditional particle. Once you meet the condition of the particle, the conditional case has been met. The uncertainty is in whether you meet the case (or not).
The word "If" does not mean "it is yet to be determined". You bolded a portion of the description of how the word is often used in connection with other particles to denote uncertainty. Same thing you do with a portion of other sentences.
Nathan
Member
At what point does the following "if" case get met?
2 Timothy 2:12 (ESV)
if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
Jethro Bodine
Member
"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB bold mine)
Here is the meaning of the 'if' in the verse above from 'Thayer's Greek Lexicon':
"a conditional particle...which makes reference to time and experience, introducing something future, but not determining, before the event, whether it is certainly to take place..." https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1437&t=KJV (bold mine)
The thing in question in regard to remaining in Christ is whether or not what you heard in the beginning remains in you. IF it does (the future abiding of the word not having been determined yet--see definition above), you will remain in the Son and the Father. It's impossible to honestly refute what John says. The only argument that can be leveled is 'if doesn't really mean what it says' (the infamous OSAS argument). But we know you can't use that argument since Strong and Thayer give us the clear definition of it.
chessman
Member
See. Someone could say;
"you are disconnected from eternal life" and mean it definitely.
Or you could say; "if you become disconnected from Christ you are disconnected from eternal life" and mean it conditionally.
So, once you meet the conditional "you become disconnected from Christ" is it your position that it is yet to be determined that you have been disconnected from eternal life, or do you say that it has been determined?
chessman
Member
IF x THEN y
IF we endure THEN we will also regin with Him.
When we endure we have met the condition for reigning with Him. Poof.
Your turn:
If we are faithless, does He remain faithful?
And for bonus points:
IF the Truth abides in us, how long will the Truth be with us?