Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Nathan]

Travel in small circles, maybe?

The Bible says that the gift of God is eternal life in Rom 6:23. The Bible says that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.
The Bible says that we are born again of imperishable seed in 1 Pet 1:23.
The Bible says that those given eternal life by Jesus will never perish in John 10:28.
The Bible says that those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24.

Any questions?


But now you've been given what the Bible says about the gifts of God; one being the gift of eternal life.


Sorry, but this verse doesn't apply here. That sin was specific to what the Pharisees did by claiming the miracles that Jesus performed and which they SAW with their own eyes was done by the power of the devil.

So that sin isn't even possible today.

When did blasphemy of the Spirit become unable to commit?

Never heard this one either. I actually did not catch it the first time reading.

 

[atpollard]

The Bible says that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

That verse is pretty badly abused when so completely ripped from its context and used like that.

Romans 11:25-32 [NIV]
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

From this context, "as far as election is concerned, they [Israel, the nation] are loved". The reason for this love is "on account of the patriarchs", and the assurance of this is that "God's gifts and his call [to the patriarchs] are irrevocable."

Reading on to v.32 we discover that "God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." So Israel or Gentile, all are bound over to disobedience in order that all may have access to the same mercy.

Taken together, this seems to be an assurance that God does not change his mind and will finish God's plan to fulfill God's promises. It is the promise to Abraham for Spiritual Israel, those Jews whose heart was circumcised, those original branches not removed and thrown into the fire, those wild braches grafted onto the true vine. The Body of Christ in which there is no Greek or Jew. All are united in Christ. This is the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham and the patriarchs. This is the Gift and the Call that God will not change his mind about.

It may or may not apply on an individual basis. As a 5 point Calvinist, I believe that it does. However, you have to use an honest exegesis of a verse to build your case if it is to have any real Biblical meaning. I do not get the sense that this verse is about God's eternal, irresistable, irrevocable call. This verse is about God's unmovable plan for salvation - faith credited as righteousness just like Abraham and promised to all people through one of his decendents. That is the irrevocable Gift and Call.

(In my opinion)

 

[Jim Parker]

That verse is pretty badly abused when so completely ripped from its context and used like that.

Thank you.

 

[chessman]

2 Timothy 2:12 (ESV)
if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Just in case the other one is not clear enough;

2 Tim 2:12 is clear AND trustworthy.

I trust the Word of God to be true, Scripture! To include the whole fact and trustworthy statement that salvation is in Christ Jesus (the Word of God) and is eternal glory, not temporary. Why??? Because He cannot deny Himself.

2 Timothy 2:10-13 (NASB) For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. ​

Jesus WILL deny those who have not obtained salvation in Christ Jesus i.e. those that deny Him. Just as true as those who have obtained salvation in Him HAVE died with Him AND will (not might) live with Him (and the Father). He remains faithful. He cannot deny Himself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've never met someone who believes we can deny Christ, and still live in eternity with Him.

You do realize denying Him is denying the Spirit right? And what do we know about denial of the Spirit?

Matthew 12:31 (ESV)
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

It's called Hyper-grace, or Free-grace doctrine.It's been around since the beginning of the church but is now raising it's head up again. It essentially makes grace a license to sin in regard to salvation. This is what the Bible itself has to say about Hyper/Free grace...

"contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:3-4 NASB)

Just as Jude says, this theology is creeping it's way back into the church unnoticed. Until you address it directly to Christians it goes largely unnoticed, mostly under the guise of OSAS which itself is so popular. IMO, OSAS is what opened the crack of the door of the church to allow this thing to creep in unawares in these last days.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When did blasphemy of the Spirit become unable to commit?

Never heard this one either. I actually did not catch it the first time reading.

Like Jude says, you did not catch it because it crept in unnoticed:
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:4 NASB)

I personally think Hyper-grace doctrine is the end-time undoing of the (visible) church prophesied in scripture. Mankind is ripe for this misguided theology because of our overly sexualized and prosperous world we live in today. It's the 'have your cake and eat it too' doctrine that's presently tickling the wanting ears of so many people. With so many people in bondage to easy accessible pornography and drugs these days, a doctrine that teaches that you can't behave or not believe to the point of losing eternal life, Hyper-grace doctrine is the way to go these days.

 

[chessman]

tell us what happens if the word you heard in the beginning stops remaining in a person.

Under your hypocritical conditions above, God's Word, in 100s of verses, stops being true.

Just take what John just got through saying in verse 8 of the letter you mentioned:

1 John 2:8 (NASB) On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away.​

Is it true that the darkness (hating a brother or sister) is passing away in believers or not???

All this false accusation about me believing "abide" means an instantaneous:

1 John 2:10 (NASB) The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.​

You tell me, does the person who loves his brother remain in the Light (remain in Christ), or not???

P.s.

You are saying my interpretation is such-an-such, over and over and getting it wrong. Even though it's against the rules of this forum and I've repeatedly told you that is NOT my interpretation that abide is instantaneous, you just keep thinking it is. Interesting.

You say the condition for 'remaining' in Christ got satisfied once and for all the moment the abiding of the word started in the beginning.

How about quoting me where I said the condition for abiding was satisfied "the moment" abiding started. You can't. And I've even corrected you twice on your mistake. Yet, you just keep on believing that's my position. Interesting.

And it is interesting how you continue to post my beliefs for me (contrary to the rules) and get them wrong most every time.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If this wasn't such an off the wall belief I'd do a poll to see just how many think denial of Christ still means everlasting life.

My unbelieving adult son had a direct encounter with a Hyper-grace adherant a few years ago in a bar. He was talking to a guy who claimed to be a Christian who was getting blasted on alcohol. The guy explained to my son that it didn't matter to his salvation because he accepted Jesus as savior and it was forgiven.

I moved myself and my family here to the Bible belt in 2006. My son and my daughter were young adults at the time and when they started mixing it up with the local population their age they were appalled at the hypocrisy among the young people they were hanging out with (remember, my son and daughter are unbelievers). These people talked about Jesus and went to youth group but lived promiscuous, drug using, often violent lives at night. But it was all good to these people because they were saved.

Even if it isn't openly labeled 'Hyper-grace', or 'Free-grace' doctrine, it is being practiced by our young people. Throw in these popular rock concert worship services and you've got a formula for disaster for the church of the end times. We're becoming all the more the church that Paul talked about that has the appearance of godliness but BY THEIR ACTIONS DENY CHRIST...

"They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed." (Titus 1:16 NASB bold mine)

In contrast, Hyper-grace doctrine plainly teaches that you can deny Christ in word and deed and you still get to keep eternal life (assuming you had it in the first place).

It's ironic that the evangelical church's agenda has been to emphasize the young people of today because our churches are growing old and disappearing. But they don't realize what kind of church they are replacing our old church folk with. Again, as Jude says, it's creeping in unawares.

 

[FreeGrace]

When did blasphemy of the Spirit become unable to commit?

When Jesus left earth. Please consider the context. The Pharisees saw with their own eyes the miracles of Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"he Bible says that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29."

That verse is pretty badly abused when so completely ripped from its context and used like that.

With all due respect, nonsense.

The verse is straightforward. God's gifts are irrevocable.

Romans 11:25-32 [NIV]
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

From this context, "as far as election is concerned, they [Israel, the nation] are loved". The reason for this love is "on account of the patriarchs", and the assurance of this is that "God's gifts and his call [to the patriarchs] are irrevocable."

Where would one get the idea that these "gifts of God" are only for the patriarchs? The context says NO SUCH THING.

Context for "gifts of God" will include at least EVERY GIFT that Paul noted previous to v.29. Which would include:
1. spiritual gifts in 1:11
2. justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23

It is nonsensical to limit 11:29 to only ch 11, since Paul doesn't even mention any kind of gifts to "the patriarchs".

This is just a smokescreen to distance 11:29 from 6:23.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"he Bible says that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29."

Romans 11;29 doesn't say that.

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

The gifts and calling are irrevocable.

The gifts [plural] and calling are irrevocable.


If one actually reads the context, it's clear that these is referring to unsaved Jews, who are enemies of the Gospel.

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:28-29

Unsaved Jews still have the opportunity to be saved, if the respond to the calling to repentance of the Gospel.


Are you attempting to teach that unsaved Jews have eternal life?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Romans 11;29 doesn't say that.

It says that God's gifts are irrevocable. After Paul had already noted 3 specific gifts of God previously.

So, show me where he specifically excluded the gift of eternal life from God's irrevocable gifts.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"he Bible says that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29."


This is just a smokescreen to distance 11:29 from 6:23.

Romans 11;29 does not teach that unsaved Jews have eternal life.

Romans 6:23 does not teach that the Gifts of God are eternal life.


Here's what Romans 6:23, which you won't actually post, because it exposes your "theory" to be unbiblical.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

• The wages of sin is death.

The gift [singular] of God is eternal life in Christ.

In order to have eternal life, a person must be "in Christ".

There is no eternal life apart from Christ.


Here is what you are attempting to teach us:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Your cut and paste, mix and match Gospel is not found in the Bible.



JLB

 

[JLB]

It says that God's gifts are irrevocable. After Paul had already noted 3 specific gifts of God previously.

So, show me where he specifically excluded the gift of eternal life from God's irrevocable gifts.

Here's what Romans 6:23, which you won't actually post, because it exposes your "theory" to be unbiblical.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

• The wages of sin is death.

The gift [singular] of God is eternal life in Christ.

In order to have eternal life, a person must be "in Christ".

There is no eternal life apart from Christ.


Here is what you are attempting to teach us:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Your cut and paste, mix and match Gospel is not found in the Bible.

 

[JLB]

It says that God's gifts are irrevocable. After Paul had already noted 3 specific gifts of God previously.

So, show me where he specifically excluded the gift of eternal life from God's irrevocable gifts.

You will have to post the actual scripture and it's context for all to study and discuss.



JLB

 

[chessman]

If one actually reads the context, it's clear that these is referring to unsaved Jews, who are enemies of the Gospel.

Excellent example. If God hasn't and will not revoke His calling to the unsaved Jews (who's leaders and populace were by in large enemies of the Gospel), then that's pretty irrevocable, hay???

Are you teaching that God revokes His gifts?

 

[JLB]

Excellent example. If God hasn't and will not revoke His calling to the unsaved Jews (who's leaders and populace were by in large enemies of the Gospel), then that's pretty irrevocable, hay???

Are you teaching that God revokes His gifts?

The gifts and calling are irrevocable.

The calling and gifts are still available but must be believed.

Jews who are enemies of the Gospel do not have eternal life, that's the point.

Yes the Jews still have the opportunity to receive eternal life if they do not continue in unbelief, but respond to the calling of repentance by believing.

• if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23


JLB

 

[chessman]

Jews who are enemies of the Gospel do not have eternal life, that's the point.

Paul makes lots of points in this chapter.

28 With respect to the gospel, they [Jews] are enemies for your [Gentiles] sake, but with respect to election, they [Jews] are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers.​

Were Paul's gifts he received from God (any of them) revocable?

Romans 11:4 (NASB) But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

Romans 11:7 (NASB) What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

​

 

[JLB]

Paul makes lots of points in this chapter.

28 With respect to the gospel, they [Jews] are enemies for your [Gentiles] sake, but with respect to election, they [Jews] are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers.​

Were Paul's gifts he received from God (any of them) revocable?

Romans 11:4 (NASB) But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

Romans 11:7 (NASB) What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

​

The point we are discussing is that unsaved Jews who are enemies of the Gospel, certainly do not have eternal life.

There is no way for this truth to be explained away.

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:28-29



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Romans 11;29 does not teach that unsaved Jews have eternal life.

Of course it doesn't. Who has claimed such a thing?

Romans 6:23 does not teach that the Gifts of God are eternal life.

No, it teaches that eternal life is A gift of God. And 11:29 indicates that there are MORE THAN ONE of God's gifts that are irrevocable.

Here's what Romans 6:23, which you won't actually post, because it exposes your "theory" to be unbiblical.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

• The wages of sin is death.

The gift [singular] of God is eternal life in Christ.

In order to have eternal life, a person must be "in Christ".

Nothing iIve posted is any different than what you've so far posted here.

There is no eternal life apart from Christ.

No argument.

But your achille's heel is failing to show plain language from Scripture that one who has been placed "in Christ" can be unplaced, or taken out of Christ.

All that has been posted is a lot of assumption about figures of speech and metaphors, NONE of which say what is being claimed.

Here is what you are attempting to teach us:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Your cut and paste, mix and match Gospel is not found in the Bible.
JLB

There is nothing in the lined out words that changes the very FACT that eternal life is still a gift of God.

So you've proven nothing.