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Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

John 15:4-5
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
 
If you have any kind of fruit tree around try this.

Wait till there is some fruit starting to grow on it. Then cut a branch off. Let me know if the fruit keeps growing.

The branch just 'bears' fruit, it doesn't make it. :)
 
wondering said:
This is not a clear answer.
If we abide in Him, we have accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior.
He is our Savior because He saves us.
He is our Lord because we obey Him.

What's to obey if not works?
Click to expand...
Yes! We obey by abiding in Him. I promise if you abide in Christ you will see fruit.
 
Nathan said:
If you have any kind of fruit tree around try this.

Wait till there is some fruit starting to grow on it. Then cut a branch off. Let me know if the fruit keeps growing.

The branch just 'bears' fruit, it doesn't make it. :)
Click to expand...
Nathan
I know you believe that loss of salvation is possible. (If a brand his cut off).

Here we're discussing
Justification
Sanctification.

Why is Jesus Lord?
 
Nathan said:
Yes! We obey by abiding in Him. I promise if you abide in Christ you will see fruit.
Click to expand...
Ok!
We also obey by abiding in Him. Jesus said it is to our advantage to abide in Him.
And what is the fruit we see?

Is it not our good works?
 
wondering said:
Ok!
We also obey by abiding in Him. Jesus said it is to our advantage to abide in Him.
And what is the fruit we see?

Is it not our good works?
Click to expand...
Nope, we see Gods good works done through us.

Think about it. Do you look at a beautiful fruit tree and say "those branches are sure pretty", or do you say "what a beautiful tree, and beautiful fruit"?
 
wondering said:
Nathan
I know you believe that loss of salvation is possible. (If a brand his cut off).

Here we're discussing
Justification
Sanctification.

Why is Jesus Lord?
Click to expand...
Right, that was just an analogy to show the fruit is produced by the tree not the branches. I was not trying to dive into loss of salvation. Besides, God doesn't cut off branches with fruit on them. ;)
 
Nathan said:
Nope, we see Gods good works done through us.

Think about it. Do you look at a beautiful fruit tree and say "those branches are sure pretty", or do you say "what a beautiful tree, and beautiful fruit"?
Click to expand...
If you mean that we are God's hands and feet, I would agree.
However, you're not being clear an I fear this may have to wait till I have a Bible since it's theology.
 
I hear you. I am on my phone right now and it is so much easier to use a PC.

So here is another thing;

Galatians 5:16-26
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Notice the "action" words used. When talking about the flesh it's works. Talking about the Spirit it's fruit. Why did Paul not say "but the works of the Spirit is...."?

The reason for the distinction is this - works in the Bible are things done to earn something. Fruit is something that God does through someone - in order to bring Glory to Him.

When we see "works" done by believers in the Bible it should always be seen as God working through the person.

Philippians 2:12-16
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning,
15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,
16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

We "do" things because God works in us and through us. We are not puppets because we have to obey, God won't make us obey. So when we obey the good works God does in us show through us in the form of fruit. Therefore, when others see the good works they Glorify God.

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
 
Nathan said:
I hear you. I am on my phone right now and it is so much easier to use a PC.

So here is another thing;

Galatians 5:16-26
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Notice the "action" words used. When talking about the flesh it's works. Talking about the Spirit it's fruit. Why did Paul not say "but the works of the Spirit is...."?

The reason for the distinction is this - works in the Bible are things done to earn something. Fruit is something that God does through someone - in order to bring Glory to Him.

When we see "works" done by believers in the Bible it should always be seen as God working through the person.

Philippians 2:12-16
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning,
15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,
16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

We "do" things because God works in us and through us. We are not puppets because we have to obey, God won't make us obey. So when we obey the good works God does in us show through us in the form of fruit. Therefore, when others see the good works they Glorify God.

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
Click to expand...
Nathan
I don't agree that works are done to earn something.
But tomorrow.
And how do you post the Bible verses on the thingy?!
Don't really want to know...
 
Nathan said:
John 15:4-5
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Click to expand...
-
Sometimes, its just a really good idea not to try too hard to misinterpret a verse.

This verse you posted, at BEST, is about discipleship... and this is why the verse is talking about "fruit" bearing, (what you do AFTER you are saved, and not to be saved or to stay saved)... and that verse is not about the Cross or the Blood or the Atonement, or any "signal" word that alerts you ..= "Salvation scripture - doctrine".
Also, you can pretty much realize now and save yourself some missteps by just deciding that if Paul is not talking about it, then its not about Salvation or 99.9% of "doctrines" for the Church.
That's just a biblical factoid.
When you get to Heaven, ask Jesus why, after He had the 12, then the 11......and they all were with Him for 3.5 years.....He later came back and chose Paul and not the others, to reveal the "Grace Of God" as a Doctrine.
Thats what happened.
So you need to GET THAT.
God knows why, as He did it....= that you are to realize that Paul is your go to "Gentile Apostle" when you decide you want to actually understand "Justification by faith" , "Sanctification".....The Atonement......all this "Salvation stuff", and if you dont get the facts straight from Paul and not the others..., then you'll not really understand your ATONEMENT very well as proven by the endless-countless biblically backwards Threads posted by misguided people who dont understand Salvation, but love to try to make you believe you can lose it.
What a retarded paradox that is, within the Body of Christ, but, unfortunately its a fact.
So, anyway, this verse is dealing with what you do after you are saved, based on "walking in the spirit" and "not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh" instead.

Notice it says..."Abide", and if you dont, .....
That is to say...."walk in the Spirit" (ABIDE) and if you dont, "you are walking in the flesh". (NOT ABIDING)
 
"works"
ἔργον érgon, er'-gon; from a primary (but obsolete) ἔργω érgō (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:—deed, doing, labour, work.




 
Kidron said:
-
Sometimes, its just a really good idea not to try too hard to misinterpret a verse.

This verse you posted, at BEST, is about discipleship... and this is why the verse is talking about "fruit" bearing, (what you do AFTER you are saved, and not to be saved or to stay saved)... and that verse is not about the Cross or the Blood or the Atonement, or any "signal" word that alerts you ..= "Salvation scripture - doctrine".
Also, you can pretty much realize now and save yourself some missteps by just deciding that if Paul is not talking about it, then its not about Salvation or 99.9% of "doctrines" for the Church.
That's just a biblical factoid.
When you get to Heaven, ask Jesus why, after He had the 12, then the 11......and they all were with Him for 3.5 years.....He later came back and chose Paul and not the others, to reveal the "Grace Of God" as a Doctrine.
Thats what happened.
So you need to GET THAT.
God knows why, as He did it....= that you are to realize that Paul is your go to "Gentile Apostle" when you decide you want to actually understand "Justification by faith" , "Sanctification".....The Atonement......all this "Salvation stuff", and if you dont get the facts straight from Paul and not the others..., then you'll not really understand your ATONEMENT very well as proven by the endless-countless biblically backwards Threads posted by misguided people who dont understand Salvation, but love to try to make you believe you can lose it.
What a retarded paradox that is, within the Body of Christ, but, unfortunately its a fact.
So, anyway, this verse is dealing with what you do after you are saved, based on "walking in the spirit" and "not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh" instead.

Notice it says..."Abide", and if you dont, .....
That is to say...."walk in the Spirit" (ABIDE) and if you dont, "you are walking in the flesh". (NOT ABIDING)
Click to expand...

:confused I'm confused. I just posted the verse, I was not trying to say anything other than if we abide in Him then we will bear fruit - because He is the source of the fruit not us.
 
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