Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Jethro Bodine]

What I posted is FACT.

Too bad for you Paul wasn't talking about a believer becoming an unbeliever and still having eternal life in Romans 11. It's impossible to claim he was since the context of Romans 11 does not breath a word about that. You have taken vs. 29 completely out of context--even out of context of the very sentence vs. 29 is from--and decided it means a believer can stop believing and they still have the gift of salvation. I'm amazed that you think honest people are going to ignore the plain words of the passage in favor of your narrow, personal, out of context interpretation of vs. 29.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The only respectable argument you and every other OSASer can have is that believers can never stop believing. But even you know that believers can stop believing. That puts you in a very hard place to be in an OSAS debate. The best argument OSAS has (believers can never stop believing) is not even at your disposal in this debate. You have nothing. All you can do is dogmatically bash people in the face over and over with your isolated, out of context verses of scripture as if that somehow proves your doctrine.

 

[chessman]

Causing children of the faith who believe in Jesus to stumble and go to the fiery hell is about as bad as it gets.

6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Within your doctrine, is the "him" in this passage a causer of stumbling or the little one stumbling?

Does "stumbling" mean de-salvation within your doctrine?

Please answer these questions. You need to tells us the answer.

 

[Jim Parker]

What is meant by 'saved from permanent physical death'? Everyone except a few will experience physical death. My parents are believers in Christ and died over 2 decades ago.

I didn't say no one would die any more.

so Jesus saves everyone from 2 physical deaths.

I didn't say that either.

No one is "saved from physical death" other than only a very small percentage of humanity. Enoch and Elijah from the OT and the rapture generation in the NT.

Ok. So you didn't understand what I said about that either.
That's 3 for 3. So far, you're batting 1000.

"D" contradicts "A/B/C". It's given to believers on the basis of faith, not works.

4 for 4

Again, this is contradicted.

By whom? You?

Again, contradicted.

ibid

These statements claim that eternal life by believing in Christ and doing good works.

Yeah. That's what the scripture says.
You finally got one right.
But you think it's wrong.
oh well....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Within your doctrine, is the "him" in this passage a causer of stumbling or the little one stumbling?

The 'him' in the passage is the 'whoever' that is causing the stumbling:
"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6 NASB)

Does "stumbling" mean de-salvation within your doctrine?

The stumbling that Jesus is referring to is the stumbling so as to be cast into the eternal, fiery hell of little ones who believe in him, so, yes, in the passage stumbling means loss of salvation/eternal life:
8“If your hand or your foot (the 'whoever' in vs.6) causes you to stumble (you who believe in Me--vs.6), cut it (the 'whoever') off and throw it from you; it is better for you (who believe in Me) to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:8-9 NASB).

For the little one who believes in Jesus, it is better for them to cut off the source of stumbling (the 'whoever' in vs 6/ the hand or foot or eye in vs. 8,9) than for that little one to keep the 'whoever' that is stumbling them and be cast into the fiery, eternal hell. It is better to cut off the eyes, hands, and feet of the body of Christ who cause the body to stumble so as to go to the fires of hell. But hyper-grace/ free grace doctrine insists that the one who believes in Jesus can never, ever under any circumstances (even unbelief) go to the fiery, eternal hell. But Jesus is telling us here that it is better to get rid of stumbling blocks in the body because that's better than keeping them around and the whole body going to hell.

 

[chessman]

It is better to cut off the eyes, hands, and feet of the body of Christ who cause the body to stumble

How do you know that the "whoever" that's causing the stumbling (the sumbling blocks) are a part of the body of Christ?

Matthew 18:7 (NASB) “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes! ​

Your predisposition toward OSNAS seems to be coming into play here with your doctrine built around this passage. The stumbling blocks (the "whover") are clearly men coming from the world in this passage of Jesus', not coming from "the body of Christ" (to use your words).

Are you aware that on Jesus' view the "little ones who believe" are not of this world?

John 15:19 (NASB) If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
​

Are you aware that it is the will of The Father that not a single one of these little ones perish?

Matthew 18:14 (NASB) So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How do you know that the "whoever" that's causing the stumbling (the sumbling blocks) are a part of the body of Christ?

Matthew 18:7 (NASB) “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes! ​

Your predisposition toward OSNAS seems to be coming into play here with your doctrine built around this passage. The stumbling blocks (the "whover") are clearly men coming from the world in this passage of Jesus', not coming from "the body of Christ" (to use your words).

Are you aware that on Jesus' view the "little ones who believe" are not of this world?

John 15:19 (NASB) If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
​

Are you aware that it is the will of The Father that not a single one of these little ones perish?

Matthew 18:14 (NASB) So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.​

It doesn't matter if the stumbling blocks are really saved or not. The non-OSAS point is, Jesus says it's better to cut off those who cause the stumbling than for the little ones who believe in Jesus to not cut off those who cause the stumbling and go whole into the fiery, eternal hell.

 

[chessman]

It doesn't matter if the stumbling blocks are really saved or not.

Sure it does. They're the ones being sent to Hell, not the little ones.

The Text doesn't ever say, imply, suggest, or even hint that the little ones go to Hell.

The non-OSAS point is, Jesus says it's better to cut off those who cause the stumbling ...

Again, those who are causing stumbling are clearly NOT the little ones. They are people of the world.

Matthew 18:7 (NASB) “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes! ​

The 'non-OSAS' point of the passage is that it's better to cutoff people of the world than to go to Hell.

Then Guess what?
One of the 'OSAS' points of the passage is that it's better to 'cutoff' people of the world than to go to Hell. Heaven IS better than Hell. And God will one day cut off the un-saved from the saved.

I guess we should just say; Jesus makes a point in this passage that it's better to cut off the inevitable stumbling blocks of the world from the little one who believe in Him. That's not anymore 'non-OSAS' than it is OSAS. It's just true. True for you, true for me.

God has in mind better things for His little ones than He does for the stumbling blocks.

God's even got angels in Heaven looking out for His little ones, protecting his little ones from the harms of the world so that not a single one perishes. Why??? Because it is His will that no little one perish. Now that's a OSAS point!

Matthew 18:10, 14 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
...
So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
​

 

[JLB]

Sure it does. They're the ones being sent to Hell, not the little ones.

The Text doesn't ever say, imply, suggest, or even hint that the little ones go to Hell.


Again, those who are causing stumbling are clearly NOT the little ones. They are people of the world.

Matthew 18:7 (NASB) “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes! ​

The 'non-OSAS' point of the passage is that it's better to cutoff people of the world than to go to Hell.

Then Guess what?
One of the 'OSAS' points of the passage is that it's better to 'cutoff' people of the world than to go to Hell. Heaven IS better than Hell. And God will one day cut off the un-saved from the saved.

I guess we should just say; Jesus makes a point in this passage that it's better to cut off the inevitable stumbling blocks of the world from the little one who believe in Him. That's not anymore 'non-OSAS' than it is OSAS. It's just true. True for you, true for me.

God has in mind better things for His little ones than He does for the stumbling blocks.

God's even got angels in Heaven looking out for His little ones, protecting his little ones from the harms of the world so that not a single one perishes. Why??? Because it is His will that no little one perish. Now that's a OSAS point!

Matthew 18:10, 14 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
...
So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
​

6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!

8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. Matthew 18:6-9

Jesus is teaching His disciples that if they have a part of their body that causes them to sin, it would be better to deal with it, than to have it cause them to go to hell.

Do you consider going to hell, losing your salvation?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

chessman ,

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks!" (Matthew 18:7 NASB - 'its' in italics added by translators)

"Woe to the world" means what it says: Woe to the world we live in because of stumbling blocks. At present the kingdom of God has both true and false in it. But the day will come when the kingdom of God in this world will be cleansed of all stumbling blocks and wickedness. Whether or not stumbling blocks and wicked people whom the Lord will send to hell were ever saved or not is not the point. What we know is their outcome. This is the fate of the stumbling blocks to Christ's little ones in this life:

just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:40-42 NASB)

Thus my warning to those who teach little ones who believe in Jesus that they can stop believing in Christ and go back to their old lives and they are still saved. If that isn't causing a little one who believes in Christ to stumble, what is? Is there something worse than the stumbling of unbelief that makes it so the free-grace teacher who leads people to unbelief is not guilty of being a stumbling block to Christ's little ones?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One of the 'OSAS' points of the passage is that it's better to 'cutoff' people of the world than to go to Hell. Heaven IS better than Hell. And God will one day cut off the un-saved from the saved.

The non-OSAS point you're missing is if they don't cut off the 'whoevers' through which stumbling comes, they, the little ones, will themselves go to the fiery hell:

"8“If your hand or your foot causes you ("who believe in Me"-vs.6) to stumble, cut it off and throw it (the 'whoever' through whom stumbling comes-vs.6) from you; it is better for you (little ones) to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire." (Matthew 18:8 NASB parenthesis mine)

It is better to cut off the stumbling blocks and for believers to be less than the whole, than to not cut them off and remain whole only to then go to the eternal hell. But hyper-grace/ free-grace doctrine insists that it is impossible for the little one who believes in Christ to ever, ever go to hell under any circumstance, even unbelief, which makes Jesus' warning to his believers about going to hell meaningless.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God has in mind better things for His little ones than He does for the stumbling blocks.

God's even got angels in Heaven looking out for His little ones, protecting his little ones from the harms of the world so that not a single one perishes. Why??? Because it is His will that no little one perish. Now that's a OSAS point!

Then you believe that God will protect his people from hyper-grace/ free-grace teachers, and that hyper-grace teachers will indeed go to the fiery hell.

 

[chessman]

Thus my warning to those who teach little ones who believe in Jesus that they can stop believing in Christ and go back to their old lives and they are still saved.

Good on you. I'd say the same thing. Who (among Bible believers anyway) teaches that little ones can stop believing in Christ???

If that isn't causing a little one who believes in Christ to stumble, what is?

I can think of many other 'stumbling blocks' but that's certainly right up there in the top ten, yes. Another 'stumbling block' would be to teach that it is will of the Father that even one of these converted little ones shall perish.

Matthew 18:14 (NASB) So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish. ​

Is there something worse than the stumbling of unbelief that makes it so the free-grace teacher who leads people to unbelief is not guilty of being a stumbling block to Christ's little ones?

Your definition of 'free-grace' is about as misunderstood (and therefore misleading) as your pointing to Matt 18 for 'proof' of loss of salvation. Unbelief does not equal stumbling. They're two different words and two different Biblical meanings.

'Squishing' them into the same meaning makes about as much sense as squishing a stumbling block into a little one. Two different things in this Text.

It is better to cut off the stumbling blocks and for believers to be less than the whole, than to not cut them off and remain whole only to then go to the eternal hell.

The stumbling blocks are clearly not the saved little ones in this Text. You keep saying this doesn't matter to the understanding of this Text. Hogwash. It matters a lot!

 

[joseph lentz]

Luke 9:62 Anyone who starts and not finishes the walk will not make it.
Heb 10:38,39 One can draw back to perdition
Jesus did say."No man can pluck you from His hand",BUT "you" can walk away of your own free will at anytime.God does not force you to come,nor does He force you to stay.

 

[chessman]

Jesus is teaching His disciples that if they have a part of their body that causes them to sin, it would be better to deal with it, than to have it cause them to go to hell.

Okay. Add what...? What else does it (this Text) teach exactly? You two act as though the Father doesn't have better things in mind (His will) for His little ones. New bodies! And the fact is, He does have even better things being prepared for us little ones (a new Heaven and New Earth) as we speak to live in with our new eyes, feet, hands (bodies).

At some point, we all get new hands, feet and eyes at our ressurection. In the interim, we've been given a new Spirit (the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a guarantee) at our conversion.

But let's not lose sight of the main point of His teaching. He (through His illustration) answered their question:

Matthew 18:1-3 (NASB) At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.​

Get it??? New born bodies await our new born "converted" spirits.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Another 'stumbling block' would be to teach that it is will of the Father that even one of these converted little ones shall perish.

Matthew 18:14 (NASB) So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Then you are insisting that God's will is always done?

Your definition of 'free-grace' is about as misunderstood (and therefore misleading) as your pointing to Matt 18 for 'proof' of loss of salvation.

Google it. Then come back and tell me it doesn't mean 'you can stop believing and you are still saved'.
Even FreeGrace will tell you that's what free grace doctrine teaches.

Unbelief does not equal stumbling.

I'm not surprised that you would say this. I've been expecting it.
How can not believing in Christ not be a stumbling?

 

[chessman]

Google it. Then come back and tell me it doesn't mean 'you can stop believing and you are still saved'.

If I did, I'd have to pick on of the o's in Gooooooooooooogle. I was speaking of the Biblical meaning of Grace. Is it free or earned??? No need to answer in this tread.

Then you are insisting that God's will is always done?

I'm debating it, and taking the side that in the case of His little ones who believe in Him, it will be done, yes.

I'm not surprised that you would say this. I've been expecting it.
How can not believing in Christ not be a stumbling?

Logically, you cannot stumble from a position you've never held.

Unbelief (Biblically speaking) never, not once, means ex-belief.

 

[FreeGrace]

I sid this:
"I simply believe what the Bible says and says very clearly."

No, you don't.

No human has either the right or authority to tell another human what they believe or don't believe. One must be omniscient to have that right and authority. You've neither. Neither do I.

You don't believe Matthew 18:6-9 NASB.

I DO believe it. But I totally disagree with your take on it. Just as you've made clear about not believing my views on any of the verses I've provided on the subject.

You need to tell us how, in your doctrine, unbelief does not constitute stumbling in one who once believed.

I've never said anything about stumbling blocks. Why would anyone assume a stumbling block will lead one to the lake of fire?

Give us an example of stumbling that Jesus might be talking about in Matthew 18:6-9 and let's see if it is somehow worse than telling a person they can return to unbelief altogether.

Any believer who is led away from their faith has stumbled, sure. They will never produce the fruit they were created for (Eph 2:10). They will lose all eternal reward (2 Jn 8).

But, I must ask again, why are there no verses that specifically say that salvation/eternal life can be lost? Because it's not true.

You need to stop provoking God's people in this forum to anger with this dishonest claim that you keep making over and over and over that nobody has shown you in the scriptures where salvation/ eternal life can be lost:

" 6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

I will point out again that v.6 and 7 do not mention anything about hell or the lake of fire. Regarding v.8, it's pretty obvious to me that Jesus was using figure of speech to make a point.

Those who think He was speaking literally need to know this: if they EVER lusted after a pretty woman or porn, they should have plucked out their eyes. That would blind the VAST MAJORITY of mankind.

And the very fact that those who post here HAVE their vision shows that no one takes His words literally. So why now?

Jesus' point in v.8 is that it is better to be maimed and go to heaven than not be maimed and go to hell.

There is NOTHING about losing salvation in any of these 3 verses.

So my claim stands.

 

[FreeGrace]

Too bad for you Paul wasn't talking about a believer becoming an unbeliever and still having eternal life in Romans 11.

No, it's not "too bad". He didn't need to talk about a believer losing his faith. Why would he have? He had specifically noted 3 different gifts that come from God previously in the letter to the Romans before he penned that God's gifts are irrevocable in 11:29. What's not clear abouat that?

If Paul never meant 6:23 to be included in the gifts of 11:29, then, because he DID describe eternal life as a gift of God, it would be incumbent on him to specifically exclude the gift of eternal life from those gifts of God that aren't irrevocable. Yet, he never did any such thing.

It's impossible to claim he was since the context of Romans 11 does not breath a word about that.

There are no verses in Romans that say that salvation or eternal life can be lost.

You have taken vs. 29 completely out of context--even out of context of the very sentence vs. 29 is from--and decided it means a believer can stop believing and they still have the gift of salvation.

Here's what it EXACTLY means: God's gifts are irrevocable. Eternal life is one of those gifts. It means EXACTLY what it says.

There is nothing in the immediate context or anywhere else that says that eternal life can be lost.

I'm amazed that you think honest people are going to ignore the plain words of the passage in favor of your narrow, personal, out of context interpretation of vs. 29.

So, what are these "plain words" in the passage that SAYS that salvation or eternal life can be lost??

 

[FreeGrace]

The only respectable argument you and every other OSASer can have is that believers can never stop believing.

But the Bible doesn't teach that. And my argument is respectable because it is biblical. It's just that many seem to not respect what the Bible teaches on that subject.

But even you know that believers can stop believing. That puts you in a very hard place to be in an OSAS debate.

Not at all. Those who understand grace understand WHY no believer can ever lose salvation, or, as Jesus put it; WILL NEVER PERISH. (Jn 10:28)

The best argument OSAS has (believers can never stop believing) is not even at your disposal in this debate.[/QUTOE]
Of course it's not "at my disposal". I wouldn't accept any argument that isn't biblical.

You have nothing.

I have biblical FACTS, otherwise known as truth.

Eternal life IS a gift of God. Rom 6:23
God's gifts ARE irrevocable. Rom 11:29
Those given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28
Those born again are of IMPERISHABLE SEED. 1 Pet 1:23

These truths, otherwise known as biblical facts, refute the claim that salvation or eternal life can be lost.

All you can do is dogmatically bash people in the face over and over with your isolated, out of context verses of scripture as if that somehow proves your doctrine.

First, biblical truth IS dogmatic. It God says it, it is TRUE. Period.

Second, your description of what I've "done" to others might be considered cute or whatever, but it only reveals extreme hypersensitivity.

There is no way I've "bashed peope IN THE FACE" or anywhere else, for that matter.

No one has yet shown that my views of certain views is "out of context". The claim is frequent, but never backed up with evidence.