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Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

Nathan said:
:thumbsup He gives us life. :)
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Yes He does. :thumbsup

Galatians 5:25a (NASB) If we live by the Spirit, ...​

I noticed another action word Paul applies to the Spirit:

Galatians 5:17a (ESV) For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, ...​

The Spirit desires (an action word) against the flesh, right?
 
chessman said:
​
Yes He does. :thumbsup

Galatians 5:25a (NASB) If we live by the Spirit, ...​

I noticed another action word Paul applies to the Spirit:

Galatians 5:17a (ESV) For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, ...​

The Spirit desires (an action word) against the flesh, right?
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Yep. I completely missed that one. :)
 
wondering said:
Nathan
I don't agree that works are done to earn something.
But tomorrow.
And how do you post the Bible verses on the thingy?!
Don't really want to know...
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Well, the best way to post verses is if you have the Bible on your thingy. :) I am positive some of the older folks in the church I attend probably think I am a heathen for reading the Bible on my thingy. Its nice though, get to carry it with me wherever I go and have all the resources of an entire library.

I hope you saw the post I made with the Biblical definition of work.

The whole point is this. From beginning to end, creation to redemption to resurrection, it is God who works in us, for us, and through us. Its His work - labor, deed, doing, toil - so that we have absolutely no chance to boast.

Isaiah 41:1-20
Listen to me in silence, O coastlands;
let the peoples renew their strength;
let them approach, then let them speak;
let us together draw near for judgment.

Who stirred up one from the east
whom victory meets at every step?
He gives up nations before him,
so that he tramples kings underfoot;
he makes them like dust with his sword,
like driven stubble with his bow.

He pursues them and passes on safely,
by paths his feet have not trod.

Who has performed and done this,
calling the generations from the beginning?
I, the LORD, the first,
and with the last; I am he.

The coastlands have seen and are afraid;
the ends of the earth tremble;
they have drawn near and come.

Everyone helps his neighbor
and says to his brother, “Be strong!”

The craftsman strengthens the goldsmith,
and he who smooths with the hammer him who strikes the anvil,
saying of the soldering, “It is good”;
and they strengthen it with nails so that it cannot be moved.

But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
the offspring of Abraham, my friend;

you whom I took from the ends of the earth,
and called from its farthest corners,
saying to you, “You are my servant,
I have chosen you and not cast you off”;

fear not, for I am with you;
be not dismayed, for I am your God;
I will strengthen you, I will help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

Behold, all who are incensed against you
shall be put to shame and confounded;
those who strive against you
shall be as nothing and shall perish.

You shall seek those who contend with you,
but you shall not find them;
those who war against you
shall be as nothing at all.

For I, the LORD your God,
hold your right hand;
it is I who say to you, “Fear not,
I am the one who helps you.”

Fear not, you worm Jacob,
you men of Israel!
I am the one who helps you, declares the LORD;
your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.

Behold, I make of you a threshing sledge,
new, sharp, and having teeth;
you shall thresh the mountains and crush them,
and you shall make the hills like chaff;

you shall winnow them, and the wind shall carry them away,
and the tempest shall scatter them.
And you shall rejoice in the LORD;
in the Holy One of Israel you shall glory.

When the poor and needy seek water,
and there is none,
and their tongue is parched with thirst,
I the LORD will answer them;
I the God of Israel will not forsake them.

I will open rivers on the bare heights,
and fountains in the midst of the valleys.
I will make the wilderness a pool of water,
and the dry land springs of water.

I will put in the wilderness the cedar,
the acacia, the myrtle, and the olive.
I will set in the desert the cypress,
the plane and the pine together,

that they may see and know,
may consider and understand together,
that the hand of the LORD has done this,
the Holy One of Israel has created it.

You can't get around the fact that God does what He wants. Some go too far to one side of the road and say that this means no one can 'do' anything. But if you read back through this passage alone, it is God who does things so that they understand who it is who does things. But you see He does things for others to walk in them - not labor for them, but just to abide in them.
 
Nathan said:
I suppose it does take action - I wouldn't call it a work though. Normally work is used to define something you are doing to earn something.

I would call it a response. Submission is where faith meets obedience.
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So, how does that differ from believe? I thought our believing was a response to the call of God through the Holy Spirit.
 
WIP said:
So, how does that differ from believe? I thought our believing was a response to the call of God through the Holy Spirit.
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Just so I don't get confused myself, I'll quote your question I was responding to.

WIP said: ↑
So is our submitting a work?
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So then I said;

Nathan said: ↑
I suppose it does take action - I wouldn't call it a work though. Normally work is used to define something you are doing to earn something.

I would call it a response. Submission is where faith meets obedience.
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What I am saying is, believing is what we do. Its not 'work' to believe. I know it goes without saying, but if the two were the same there would be no reason to have different words for each.

How it differs is a great question. I suppose I answered it half way by explaining what work is, but have not explained what belief is yet.

John 6:28-29
Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

"believe" -
πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

But notice what Jesus said - it is the work of God. Not our work, God's work produces belief - which is just simple faith/trust.

Ok, so if we are to go deeper with 'how' this action is different from another action we call work - here it is;

A work is done from a persons mind.
A belief is done from a persons heart.
 
Nathan said:
Ok, so if we are to go deeper with 'how' this action is different from another action we call work - here it is;

A work is done from a persons mind.
A belief is done from a persons heart.
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This is why the Lord said;

Isaiah 29:13-14
13 And the Lord said: "Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men,
14 therefore, behold, I will again do wonderful things with this people, with wonder upon wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hidden."
 
Jim Parker said:
Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works Part 1

I. Saved from what?

A. Saved from death.
1. The result of Adam’s sin is death for all mankind.
a. Sin separated Adam from God in Whom alone is Life.
b. Adam, by sin, became a creature who dies.
Romans 6:23a For the wages of sin is death

c. Adam passed that nature (being a creature who dies) on to all his descendants.
Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned

2. The result of Jesus’ incarnation, death and resurrection is immortality of all mankind.
Romans 6:23b the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

a. By the incarnation of the Logos (the Word of God, the Son) God joined His divine
nature with the nature of created man; He united man with God.
b. In the crucifixion, Jesus died an unnatural death, not because of sin, as a human being.
c. By His resurrection, Jesus destroyed the power of death to hold mankind in the grave
where we would “return to dust.”
d. All of mankind will be resurrected
1Thes 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

e. Mankind will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible,
1Cor 15:52-54 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

f. Believers will be eternally and intimately united with God, in Christ as the “body of
Christ” and the “bride of Christ.”
Eph 5:28-32 Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church;

g. Our bodies will be changed to be like Jesus’ resurrected body
Phil 3:20-21 But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.

h. Man’s greatest fear and greatest adversary is death, but Jesus has saved all of
mankind from death.
2 Ti 1:10b …our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

B. Saved from Hell?
No, saved from physical death.

1. Jesus has saved all of mankind will be saved from permanent, physical death by His
resurrection.
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What is meant by 'saved from permanent physical death'? Everyone except a few will experience physical death. My parents are believers in Christ and died over 2 decades ago.

2. Some people will spend eternity with God in His kingdom and some will spend eternity
separated from God in hell, but, after the resurrection, nobody will ever again be subject
to physical death./
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Oh, so Jesus saves everyone from 2 physical deaths. I guess one could say that Jesus saved everyone from (fill in the blank) any number of physical deaths then. Why stop at just 2? There isn't any indication from Scripture that anyone is subject to more than 1 physical death.

Scripture says: Heb 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment

That's physical death. Once only. After that, to face judgment, where unbelievers will experience the second death, which is final and permanent separation from God.

II. What is “Eternal Life”?
B. Eternal life, then, is the combination of having been saved from physical death (as has all
mankind) and, in addition, being intimately and eternally united to God in Christ as the body of
Christ and the Bride of Christ.
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No one is "saved from physical death" other than only a very small percentage of humanity. Enoch and Elijah from the OT and the rapture generation in the NT.

2 Ti 1:10b … our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ro 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.

Eph 5:31-32 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church;

III. How does one “get” into eternal life?
A. It is a gift from God. (Romans 6:23b)
B. It is given by Grace. (Eph 2:5, 8; Act 15:11)
C. It is given to those who believe in Jesus. (John 3:16)
D. It is given to those who do the good works for which they were created.
(Eph 2:10, John 5:28-29; Ro 6:2-10; Mat 25:31-46)
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"D" contradicts "A/B/C". It's given to believers on the basis of faith, not works.

E. It cannot be earned by doing good works but, it will not be given to anyone who does not do
good works. (John 5:28-29; Ro 6:2-10; Mat 25:31-46)
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Again, this is contradicted.

3. One cannot earn eternal life by doing good works. But neither will anyone be given
eternal life who does not do the good works that he was created in Christ to do and
which God prepared beforehand that he should walk in them, but does evil instead.
(Eph 2:10; Jas 4:17; 1Cor 6:9-10)
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Again, contradicted.

These statements claim that eternal life by believing in Christ and doing good works.
 
Jim Parker said:
Absolutely not.
I believe that we have free will and are able to choose to accept God's gift of eternal life or to reject it.

iakov the fool
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But once given, since God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29) and eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) it can't be rejected.

And Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish (John 10:28). iow, after giving the gift of eternal life, there are no conditions to meet for never perishing.

Finally, 1 Pet 1:23 says believers have been born again of imperishable seed. That is why we will never perish and there are no conditions to meet for never perishing.
 
FreeGrace said:
But once given, since God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29) and eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) it can't be rejected.

And Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish (John 10:28). iow, after giving the gift of eternal life, there are no conditions to meet for never perishing.

Finally, 1 Pet 1:23 says believers have been born again of imperishable seed. That is why we will never perish and there are no conditions to meet for never perishing.
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I got to hand it to you.
You are either 1) really gutsy, 2) extremely arrogant, or 3) just plain uneducated in the truths of God.
I hope for your sake it's #3, because telling people they can never lose their salvation even if they go back to the world, and they then do that, carries a very, very severe penalty for the person who caused them to stumble that way:

"whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6 NASB)

Causing children of the faith who believe in Jesus to stumble and go to the fiery hell is about as bad as it gets. And if causing a believer to turn back to the world in a renewed unbelief is not them stumbling, what is, FreeGrace, what is? What's worse than outright unbelief that would constitute a stumbling so as to go to the eternal fire? And how are you not guilty of being the one who causes the stumbling of the person who believes you when you say they can not go to hell for going back to unbelief and they do that?

"17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy" (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB)
 
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Jethro Bodine said:
I got to hand it to you.
You are either 1) really gutsy, 2) extremely arrogant, or 3) just plain uneducated in the truths of God.
I hope for your sake it's #3, because telling people they can never lose their salvation even if they go back to the world, and they then do that, carries a very, very severe penalty for the person who caused them to stumble that way:

"whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6 NASB)

Causing children of the faith who believe in Jesus to stumble and go to the fiery hell is about as bad as it gets. And if causing a believer to turn back to the world in a renewed unbelief is not them stumbling, what is, FreeGrace, what is? What's worse than outright unbelief that would constitute a stumbling so as to go to the eternal fire? And how are you not guilty of being the one who causes the stumbling of the person who believes you when you say they can not go to hell for going back to unbelief and they do that?

"17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy" (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB)
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I simply believe what the Bible says and says very clearly.
Eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23), and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Plus, Jesus promises that those He gives eternal life will never perish (John 10:28). Notice that there are NO CONDITIONS to those He gives eternal life about never perishing.

The MERE FACT that those who receive that irrevocable gift WILL NEVER PERISH.

Regarding your ad hominem about my being real gutsy or arrogant or just plain uneducated in the truths of God, I'd say that applies to those who, in spite of the verses to the contrary, continue to claim that one can lose salvation. Which is a direct contradiction of God's Word.

Once again, where would one read in Scripture that salvation or eternal life is said to be losable? For any reason? I haven't found any. Nor has anyone on your side.
 
FreeGrace said:
I simply believe what the Bible says and says very clearly.
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No, you don't. You don't believe Matthew 18:6-9 NASB. You've never been able to make the plain fact go away that Jesus is talking about stumbling blocks that make little ones who believe in him potentially going to the lake of eternal fire--the very thing your doctrine insists can not happen to a little one who believes in Jesus.

You need to tell us how, in your doctrine, unbelief does not constitute stumbling in one who once believed. Give us an example of stumbling that Jesus might be talking about in Matthew 18:6-9 and let's see if it is somehow worse than telling a person they can return to unbelief altogether.

FreeGrace said:
Once again, where would one read in Scripture that salvation or eternal life is said to be losable? For any reason? I haven't found any. Nor has anyone on your side.
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You need to stop provoking God's people in this forum to anger with this dishonest claim that you keep making over and over and over that nobody has shown you in the scriptures where salvation/ eternal life can be lost:

" 6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)
 
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