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Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

Morning Brother JLB.
So are you saying that only the original apostles are written in the book of life whose names will not be erased according to Rev 3:5?


Good Morning Brother,

I quoted each scripture that was referring to the Apostles.

Example:

When Jesus says... Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none, He is referring to the Apostles, however I hear verse's such as this, used to refer to all believer's, in an attempt to "prove" once we are saved, we are always saved.

  • When Jesus says: Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,” 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.” John 18:8-9
  • Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

So are you saying that only the original apostles are written in the book of life whose names will not be erased according to Rev 3:5?
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

No, not at all, as this is referring to "whoever" or "he" with the condition set forth as "overcome", in order to remain in the book of Life.

5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5

Do you agree that it is indeed possible to be "blotted out" of the Book of Life?

Overcome here is a reference to continuing in the faith: faithful obedience to believe and do what Jesus our Lord tell's us to do in spite of the circumstances.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:1-5


There are some here on this Forum who would seek to dilute and undermine God's word, by redefining the words and phrases of scripture, in which to rearrange the meaning of them in order to further their unbiblical doctrine.



JLB
 
I suppose it is subject as to whether Jesus meant what He said in Rev 3:5, I will not blot out his name out of the book of life. Are you really in the book of life today? How sure, and if so, why? I'll not go further with this until I know what you think you are in Christ, or probably better said: who do you think you are in Christ?

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (but what if I deny You?)
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
We have a competent and capable High Priest. He won't fail to represent us properly before the Father like Eli, for example, did. His competency is the basis for our confidence and why we should hold fast and never lose faith in Jesus our High Priest.
 
Is the "we" in the above verse referring to us and Christ?
Yes, asked and answered already and supported by the Text. Did "we" not die together with Christ Jesus??? Yes. I know I did, at least.

The "we" is obviously speaking of a(plural) persons, not a plural persons and Christ together to form "we".
It's not obvious at all that is the case. In fact, what is obvious from the Greek is that it is precisely talking about plural persons together with Christ to form "we" and "Him" from the single verb. If you remove "we", you must similarly remove "Him". It's literally one word in Greek!

2 Timothy 2:11 (ESV) 11 The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
Amen! Get it??? Without our first dying WITH Him, we do NOT live with Him. You just can't separate our dying with Him from Him.

2 Timothy 2:11 (ISV) This saying is trustworthy: In dying with the Messiah, true life we gain.

You cannot separate our gaining life from our dying with Christ. They go together (or die together, as the case may be for some).

If Christ has not been raised ...

Is the "we" in the above verse referring to us and Christ?
Yes, asked and answered and supported with evidence.

What's not so funny is that Paul goes on to say;

2 Timothy 2:14 (ESV) 14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.

I find this ironic. I was trying to discuss a thought process and somehow it turned into an illogical quarrel about words. I suppose I can only blame myself for this.
Yes, in my study of this passage the irony of this verse did not go unnoticed by me either. I actually put some discussion of it in a draft post, then deleted it in order to not complicate a very specific disagreement we are having over the word "we" and "Him". Let's not "quarrel" about words. Especially words that are not even in the original Text. I'm not angry and don't sense that you are either. There is no "quarrel" here. Just as there is no "we" or "him" in the original Text.

Your case for using v12b as a OSNAS 'verse' hinges on who the "we" is referencing within the portion of the verse (and seperating it from the rest of Paul's trustworthy statement and the "Him"). The fact is however, and it's a true fact, the "we" and "Him" of 12b ESV comes from a single verb.

11 Trustworthy the saying:
if indeed synapethanomen [we have died together with Him] also
syzēsomen [we will live together with Him]

[IF x THEN y
IF synapethanomen THEN syzēsomen]


12 if hypomenomen [we endure]
also symbasileusomen [we will reign together with him]

if arnēsometha [we will deny him]
kakeinos [he also] will deny us

[the above IF x THEN y is your OSNAS snip with the "we" and "Him" shown to come from the one word arnēsometha. It DOES NOT even have "we" or "Him" in the Greek Text (but it could have been stated that way if Paul wanted to). So your point is mute and demonstrably incorrect. You cannot separate "we" from "Him" and be true to the Text. It's just a fact. Make of it what you will. Not to mention, your point hinges on a mere portion of Paul's actually trustworthy statement, to begin with. It's like taking one line of computer code from a 10 line routine and expecting the one line to process the same as the original 10. It just doesn't work like that.]

13 if apistoumen [we are faithless]
He remains faithful

In the above verse, for example, "He" is a word all by itself in the Greek. Verse 12 could have been stated like 13. But Paul chose not to. For a reason!

All these words together (Paul's entire statement) mean: "He is not able indeed to deny Himself". Strip a portion of the statement out (or add to it something not there like "we" or "Him") and it no longer is Paul's trustworthy statement.

Simply put, If you understand v13, then you understand verses 11-12 properly. It was/is Paul's conclusion/summary of what he just got through saying. Like it or not.
 
Yes, asked and answered already and supported by the Text. Did "we" not die together with Christ Jesus??? Yes. I know I did, at least.


It's not obvious at all that is the case. In fact, what is obvious from the Greek is that it is precisely talking about plural persons together with Christ to form "we" and "Him" from the single verb. If you remove "we", you must similarly remove "Him". It's literally one word in Greek!


Amen! Get it??? Without our first dying WITH Him, we do NOT live with Him. You just can't separate our dying with Him from Him.

2 Timothy 2:11 (ISV) This saying is trustworthy: In dying with the Messiah, true life we gain.

You cannot separate our gaining life from our dying with Christ. They go together (or die together, as the case may be for some).

If Christ has not been raised ...


Yes, asked and answered and supported with evidence.


Yes, in my study of this passage the irony of this verse did not go unnoticed by me either. I actually put some discussion of it in a draft post, then deleted it in order to not complicate a very specific disagreement we are having over the word "we" and "Him". Let's not "quarrel" about words. Especially words that are not even in the original Text. I'm not angry and don't sense that you are either. There is no "quarrel" here. Just as there is no "we" or "him" in the original Text.

Your case for using v12b as a OSNAS 'verse' hinges on who the "we" is referencing within the portion of the verse (and seperating it from the rest of Paul's trustworthy statement and the "Him"). The fact is however, and it's a true fact, the "we" and "Him" of 12b ESV comes from a single verb.

11 Trustworthy the saying:
if indeed synapethanomen [we have died together with Him] also
syzēsomen [we will live together with Him]

[IF x THEN y
IF synapethanomen THEN syzēsomen]


12 if hypomenomen [we endure]
also symbasileusomen [we will reign together with him]

if arnēsometha [we will deny him]
kakeinos [he also] will deny us

[the above IF x THEN y is your OSNAS snip with the "we" and "Him" shown to come from the one word arnēsometha. It DOES NOT even have "we" or "Him" in the Greek Text (but it could have been stated that way if Paul wanted to). So your point is mute and demonstrably incorrect. You cannot separate "we" from "Him" and be true to the Text. It's just a fact. Make of it what you will. Not to mention, your point hinges on a mere portion of Paul's actually trustworthy statement, to begin with. It's like taking one line of computer code from a 10 line routine and expecting the one line to process the same as the original 10. It just doesn't work like that.]

13 if apistoumen [we are faithless]
He remains faithful

In the above verse, for example, "He" is a word all by itself in the Greek. Verse 12 could have been stated like 13. But Paul chose not to. For a reason!

All these words together (Paul's entire statement) mean: "He is not able indeed to deny Himself". Strip a portion of the statement out (or add to it something not there like "we" or "Him") and it no longer is Paul's trustworthy statement.

Simply put, If you understand v13, then you understand verses 11-12 properly. It was/is Paul's conclusion/summary of what he just got through saying. Like it or not.

If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
2 Timothy 2:12


If we deny Him, He will deny us.


Like it or not.




JLB
 
I suppose it is subject as to whether Jesus meant what He said in Rev 3:5, I will not blot out his name out of the book of life. Are you really in the book of life today? How sure, and if so, why? I'll not go further with this until I know what you think you are in Christ, or probably better said: who do you think you are in Christ?

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (but what if I deny You?)
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

Just for some context;

Rev 3:5
The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

In context, we see that the one who conquers does not have his name blotted out. The book of life was written before the foundation of the world. Therefore, my name was written into it at that point. I am 100% sure of it - because I am 100% sure that God does not lie.

Who I am in Christ - there are many things I am, but the most important is I am one who God loves.

Going back to Revelation 3:5, we see that it finds itself inline with what Paul wrote to Timothy also;

2Ti 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;


In context, Paul precedes this 'trustworthy statement' with three analogies. One about a soldier, one of an athlete, and one of a farmer. In all three cases Paul makes the point that if the person who is called to do something quits before finishing what he was called to do, then the person does not get to see the end of the matter.

Makes sense really. If I planted a garden, and then did not take care of it, there is little doubt that I would never get any food from it. If I signed up for a marathon, and then decided to go home halfway through the race, I highly doubt they would give me any sort of prize for finishing. If I was a soldier, and I deserted my post, I would be doing nothing to help win a war.
 
2Ti 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;


In context, Paul precedes this 'trustworthy statement' with three analogies. One about a soldier, one of an athlete, and one of a farmer. In all three cases Paul makes the point that if the person who is called to do something quits before finishing what he was called to do, then the person does not get to see the end of the matter.


And we know the end of the matter is when we receive the salvation of our soul: the eternal life we are hoping for by faith.


  • 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faiththe salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9

and again

  • 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7



JLB
 
Yes, asked and answered already and supported by the Text. Did "we" not die together with Christ Jesus??? Yes. I know I did, at least.


It's not obvious at all that is the case. In fact, what is obvious from the Greek is that it is precisely talking about plural persons together with Christ to form "we" and "Him" from the single verb. If you remove "we", you must similarly remove "Him". It's literally one word in Greek!


Amen! Get it??? Without our first dying WITH Him, we do NOT live with Him. You just can't separate our dying with Him from Him.

2 Timothy 2:11 (ISV) This saying is trustworthy: In dying with the Messiah, true life we gain.

You cannot separate our gaining life from our dying with Christ. They go together (or die together, as the case may be for some).

If Christ has not been raised ...


Yes, asked and answered and supported with evidence.


Yes, in my study of this passage the irony of this verse did not go unnoticed by me either. I actually put some discussion of it in a draft post, then deleted it in order to not complicate a very specific disagreement we are having over the word "we" and "Him". Let's not "quarrel" about words. Especially words that are not even in the original Text. I'm not angry and don't sense that you are either. There is no "quarrel" here. Just as there is no "we" or "him" in the original Text.

Your case for using v12b as a OSNAS 'verse' hinges on who the "we" is referencing within the portion of the verse (and seperating it from the rest of Paul's trustworthy statement and the "Him"). The fact is however, and it's a true fact, the "we" and "Him" of 12b ESV comes from a single verb.

11 Trustworthy the saying:
if indeed synapethanomen [we have died together with Him] also
syzēsomen [we will live together with Him]

[IF x THEN y
IF synapethanomen THEN syzēsomen]


12 if hypomenomen [we endure]
also symbasileusomen [we will reign together with him]

if arnēsometha [we will deny him]
kakeinos [he also] will deny us

[the above IF x THEN y is your OSNAS snip with the "we" and "Him" shown to come from the one word arnēsometha. It DOES NOT even have "we" or "Him" in the Greek Text (but it could have been stated that way if Paul wanted to). So your point is mute and demonstrably incorrect. You cannot separate "we" from "Him" and be true to the Text. It's just a fact. Make of it what you will. Not to mention, your point hinges on a mere portion of Paul's actually trustworthy statement, to begin with. It's like taking one line of computer code from a 10 line routine and expecting the one line to process the same as the original 10. It just doesn't work like that.]

13 if apistoumen [we are faithless]
He remains faithful

In the above verse, for example, "He" is a word all by itself in the Greek. Verse 12 could have been stated like 13. But Paul chose not to. For a reason!

All these words together (Paul's entire statement) mean: "He is not able indeed to deny Himself". Strip a portion of the statement out (or add to it something not there like "we" or "Him") and it no longer is Paul's trustworthy statement.

Simply put, If you understand v13, then you understand verses 11-12 properly. It was/is Paul's conclusion/summary of what he just got through saying. Like it or not.

Rev 3:2-6
Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’


Mat 10:32-33
So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
 
Rev 3:2-6
Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’


Mat 10:32-33
So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.


This could not be any plain and relevant to the time we are living in, as Persecution is arising all over the world.

Hatred and resentment towards Christ and those who stand for righteousness and moral integrity is rampant.

Those who teach that a Christian can deny Christ, and depart from the faith, and no longer believe in Him, yet are still somehow saved and have eternal life, are teaching unbiblical principles, that cause many to stumble.


I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 2 Timothy 4:1-5



JLB
 
I believe what the scripture teaches us, which is the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Yes, that's HOW one receives the gift of eternal life. By believing in Him (John 3:16, Acts 16:31) and being sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13).
 
Is not the same Spirit that did those things, the same Spirit we have?
Of course.

That would mean the same Spirit could be blasphemed even in this time.
No, it wouldn't. Did you ever see Jesus perform miracles? Unless you did, AND then said He performed miracles in the power of the devil, you cannot commit the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
 
Can a person who no longer believes in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, continue to be forgiven of their sins?
Your questions indicate a serious deficit of biblical understanding, which cannot be overcome in this forum. There is forensic forgiveness which comes at the moment of faith in Christ, per Acts 10:39. There is also the on-going confession of sin that hinders fellowship with God and Christ that brings forgiveness and purification.

How many sins did Jesus die for on the cross, per person? The answer to that question should illuminate the answer to your question.

Here is what you are attempting to teach us:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. For the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.

Your cut and paste, mix and match Gospel is not found in the Bible.
JLB
Why keep up this charade? I've never drawn lines through verses or parts of verses, as you've done.

Reasonable people will agree that Rom 6:23 teaches that eternal life is a gift of God. The verse also tells us who HAS that gift; those who are in Christ. But the verse doesn't tell us HOW one becomes "in Christ". That's why Paul wrote Eph 1:13.
 
I said this:
"This doesn't change the fact that eternal life, which is a gift of God, is irrevocable."
There is no scripture in the bible that says what you claim.
Sure there is. Found in 2 verses. Rom 6:23 tells us that eternjal life is a gift of God. Rom 11:29 tells us that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Furthermore, eternal life is the gift of God in Christ Jesus.
Of course. I've ALWAYS said that.

There is no scripture that says the gift [singular tense] of God is irrevocable.
It seems you're unaware of the meaning of singular and plural. Paul noted 3 specific gifts of God;
1. spiritual gifts in 1:11
2. justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23

These 3 gifts would be plural, since more than 1 would be referred to as plural.

So when Paul penned 11:29, he had AT THE LEAST these 3 gifts in mind about God's gifts that are irrevocable.

It seems you're straining at gnats if this is the best argument for trying to dissociate the gift of eternal life from God's irrevocable gifts.
 
I said this:
"Just look at the whole verse (2 Tim 2:12).

first part: if we endure, we will reign with Him. iow, IF A, then B.
A is enduring in the faith. B is reigning with Him.

second part: if we deny Him (not enduring in the faith), He will deny us. To stay consistent with the whole verse, what will be denied us is the privilege of reigning with Him."
I don't think it says that.
Everyone has the privilege to take any verse any way they want. But that doesn't legitamize how they understand it.

In fact, it does not say He will deny us to reign with Him.
As I showed, the context is clear. v.12 a and v.12b are in contrast. enduring and denying Him. Opposites. And the result of each opposite outcome.

Yes, not reigning with Him is a part of His denial of us, but there are many other aspects of denial. We cannot 'deny' the other aspects.
From the context, what might these "other aspects of denial" be?

Matthew 10:33 (ESV)
but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
This is not in context. Sorry.
 
Same we, sane us.

If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
2 Timothy 2:12
Are "enduring" and "denying Him" opposite conditions?

If so, (and they ARE), then the results are opposites as well.

Those who endure WILL reign with Christ.
Those who don't endure, or deny him, WILL NOT reign with Christ. They will be denied.

There is no mention of salvation in this context. None whatsoever.
 
Of course.


No, it wouldn't. Did you ever see Jesus perform miracles? Unless you did, AND then said He performed miracles in the power of the devil, you cannot commit the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Your wrong. You can, its possible, do not try to teach others that they cannot - that would be a grave mistake.
 
OK But that doesn't mean the person who falls into unbelief is going to share in the gifts.
But since the gift of eternal life is given WHEN one believes, per John 5:24, they already HAVE the gift by the time they might fall away from the faith.
 
I said this:
"No, it wouldn't. Did you ever see Jesus perform miracles? Unless you did, AND then said He performed miracles in the power of the devil, you cannot commit the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."
Your wrong.
This claim is a tacit admission that you HAVE seen Jesus perform miracles then. To which I reply: you're wrong.
 
I said this:
"Just look at the whole verse (2 Tim 2:12).

first part: if we endure, we will reign with Him. iow, IF A, then B.
A is enduring in the faith. B is reigning with Him.

second part: if we deny Him (not enduring in the faith), He will deny us. To stay consistent with the whole verse, what will be denied us is the privilege of reigning with Him."

Everyone has the privilege to take any verse any way they want. But that doesn't legitamize how they understand it.


As I showed, the context is clear. v.12 a and v.12b are in contrast. enduring and denying Him. Opposites. And the result of each opposite outcome.


From the context, what might these "other aspects of denial" be?


This is not in context. Sorry.

Rev 3:2-6
Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Mat 10:32-33
So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.


Christ did not say He would deny people a 'position', He said He would deny them to the Father. Your trying to teach that someone can deny Christ, and only be denied some 'thing' in heaven. That is wrong.

1Ch 28:9
“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.

Ezr 8:22
For I was ashamed to ask the king for a band of soldiers and horsemen to protect us against the enemy on our way, since we had told the king, “The hand of our God is for good on all who seek him, and the power of his wrath is against all who forsakehim.”

Isa 1:28
But rebels and sinners shall be broken together,
and those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Mal 3:6
“For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
 
I said this:
"No, it wouldn't. Did you ever see Jesus perform miracles? Unless you did, AND then said He performed miracles in the power of the devil, you cannot commit the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

This claim is a tacit admission that you HAVE seen Jesus perform miracles then. To which I reply: you're wrong.

Anyone who serves Christ, serves by His power and Spirit. To blaspheme the Spirit of God, you deny the power of the Spirit of God - not just some miracles that Christ performed.
 
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