Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[JLB]

Yes, you would be wise to understand it, the Text.
Problem is, you keep saying things about the Text that just aren't trure.

For example (for the third and last time):

Again, a person is singular not plural. These verbs are in their 1st person plural form. All of them. "We" = the people who have (past tense) died with Him AND who will live with Him.

The "we" in these verses is there because "we" died with Him and "we" will indeed (not might) also live with Him. It's the same "we" in every verse. Like it or not.

2 Timothy 2:11 (NASB) It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; ​

The "we" in this verse IS the same "we" in the rest of his statement.

And it's not "a person" or a thing. These verbs are 1st person plural, not singular. And they are so for a reason. The reason being, Paul's point:

To teach (the teacable anyway) that; " If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

It's the same "we". Like it or not.

Same we, sane us.

If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
2 Timothy 2:12



JLB

 

[Nathan]

Yes, you would be wise to understand it, the Text.
Problem is, you keep saying things about the Text that just aren't trure.

For example (for the third and last time):

Again, a person is singular not plural. These verbs are in their 1st person plural form. All of them. "We" = the people who have (past tense) died with Him AND who will live with Him.

The "we" in these verses is there because "we" died with Him and "we" will indeed (not might) also live with Him. It's the same "we" in every verse. Like it or not.

2 Timothy 2:11 (NASB) It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; ​

The "we" in this verse IS the same "we" in the rest of his statement.

And it's not "a person" or a thing. These verbs are 1st person plural, not singular. And they are so for a reason. The reason being, Paul's point:

To teach (the teacable anyway) that; " If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

It's the same "we". Like it or not.

Right, it is the same "we". Your trying to throw off my post by making it sound like I am saying it's not.

Clearly - plainly - it is the same "we" throughout the whole passage.

It cannot be a "we" that includes Christ. He is the other part of the verses. So the same "we" that endures with Him, is the same "we" that can deny Him.

Obviously it is not speaking of "we" including Christ - precisely because He cannot deny Himself. Therefore, the "we" must be individuals and not a combination of individuals and Christ.

 

[Nathan]

Every single Bible translation I know of uses "we". There is a reason why it is said.

 

[MarkT]

Yes, BOTH the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.


This doesn't change the fact that eternal life, which is a gift of God, is irrevocable.


No, the point of Rom 11:29 is that the gifts of God are irrevocable, as is the calling of God. Both are irrevocable.


Rom 11:29 isn't about "opportunity". It's about actual gifts. Which are irrevocable. Including ALL the gifts previously noted and described by Paul in Romans before he wrote 11:29.

1. spiritual gifts in 1:11
2. justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23

This is irrefutable.

OK But that doesn't mean the person who falls into unbelief is going to share in the gifts.

 

[chessman]

Obviously it is not speaking of "we" including Christ - precisely because He cannot deny Himself.

How does the fact that He cannot deny Himself mean that the implied "we" (which again, is not even in the Greek) does not include Him? I'm thinking you're so predisposed to inserting your own definition of who the "we" is into the verses, that it's you that cannot see the obvious. Thus you kept getting it wrong grammatically by referring to the "we" in the singular in the first place.

Did you read the passage from the interlinear link of the passage I posted?

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_timothy/2.htm

Your trying to throw off my post by making it sound like I am saying it's not.

No, I'm not. I didn't post the erroneous references to "we" in the singular, you did (multiple times even after I told you twice the verbs were 1st person plural). It's just flat wrong, to think Paul was talking about a someone. Provably.

​

Look at how these verbs get translated from the Greek.

​

 

[MarkT]

You don't save something that doesn't work anymore (and believing is doing work John 6:28-29) You throw it away. Maybe it worked once, but now it doesn't work. Likewise dead branches are broken off and thrown into the fire. John 15:6

 

[Nathan]

How does the fact that He cannot deny Himself mean that the implied "we" (which again, is not even in the Greek) does not include Him? I'm thinking you're so predisposed to inserting your own definition of who the "we" is into the verses, that it's you that cannot see the obvious. Thus you kept getting it wrong grammatically by referring to the "we" in the singular in the first place.

Did you read the passage from the interlinear link of the passage I posted?

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_timothy/2.htm


No, I'm not. I didn't post the erroneous references to "we" in the singular, you did (multiple times even after I told you twice the verbs were 1st person plural). It's just flat wrong, to think Paul was talking about a someone. Provably.

​

Look at how these verbs get translated from the Greek.

​

I never said we is singular. Again, your trying to put my post in a negative light.

"We" is obviously plural. Please post my exact comment that said it was singular.

Your posts are diverting away from the truth that I am pointing out. Lets(plural) not chase this rabbit any longer.

"If we deny Him, He will deny us". This all started because you were saying "if" was a conditional clause that could be met at one point in time and have a continual outcome.

Is the "if" portion of the verse a condition that can be met at a moment in time and have a continual outcome?

Or do you even believe that Paul says that if we deny Him, then He will deny us?

Maybe I can ask the question in a yes or no answer format;

If you or I, or anyone else, denies Christ - will Christ deny us/them? (Yes/No)

 

[Nathan]

You don't save something that doesn't work anymore (and believing is doing work John 6:28-29) You throw it away. Maybe it worked once, but now it doesn't work. Likewise dead branches are broken off and thrown into the fire. John 15:6

Don't confuse broken with useless.

Matthew 12:18 (ESV) 18 "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

Matthew 12:19 (ESV) 19 He will not quarrel or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets;

Matthew 12:20 (ESV) 20 a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory;

Matthew 12:21 (ESV) 21 and in his name the Gentiles will hope."

There are many who are broken, and many who do stumble, but His promise is to never leave us or foresake us.

 

[chessman]

Please post my exact comment that said it was singular.

You're still doing it:

If you or I, or anyone else, denies Christ

Is "you" or "I" singular here???? Are you referring to a verse that has "we" in it???

The point is "someone" has to be the object of all the actions - whoever that someone is, it has to be consistently applied through the whole passage.

Is "someone" singular here???? Are you referring to a verse that has "we" in it???

There has to be a person or thing who is doing what is spoken of.

Is "a person" singular here???? Are you referring to a verse that has "we" in it???

Your turn to answer my previous question from your reply post that you didn't answer.

 

[Nathan]

You're still doing it:


Is "you" or "I" singular here???? Are you referring to a verse that has "we" in it???



Is "someone" singular here???? Are you referring to a verse that has "we" in it???



Is "a person" singular here???? Are you referring to a verse that has "we" in it???

Your turn to answer my previous question from your reply post that you didn't answer.

Ok, so you take what I say and make it seem like something else even when I specifically say I don't mean it like that.

Have you ever thought that it takes singular people to make a plural? Can you have a plural without having 'singular' people together?

Which question? Yes I read the passage you posted.

The other question is answered in the text and in context. Jesus cannot be apart of the "we" spoken of because He is the object of the sentence. For instance, "if we have died with Him" - if in that verse Christ is apart of the "we" then that would mean He died with Himself. That's not reasonable.

Christ died, period. He did not die with Himself, He died.

You can apply this to every verse.

If one would only look at the context of the entire letter. It is Paul speaking to Timothy. Two singular individuals, which together make a plural - "we".

If you want to know who the directly implied "we" is, it is Paul and Timothy. The indirect implication is anyone(s) else who is reading the letter - me and you.

Do you believe that if we(me and you) denied Christ, that He would deny us?

 

[MarkT]

Don't confuse broken with useless.

Matthew 12:18 (ESV) 18 "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

Matthew 12:19 (ESV) 19 He will not quarrel or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets;

Matthew 12:20 (ESV) 20 a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory;

Matthew 12:21 (ESV) 21 and in his name the Gentiles will hope."

There are many who are broken, and many who do stumble, but His promise is to never leave us or foresake us.

The work is believing. I'm not judging the broken or those who stumble but not so as to fall. All I'm saying is if a man falls into unbelief he is no longer working.

I agree as one believer to another that he will never leave us or forsake us. God is our helper. Is he not able to uphold us?
Psalm 54:4
Behold, God is my helper; the Lord is the upholder of my life.

 

[chessman]

The other question is answered in the text and in context. Jesus cannot be apart of the "we" spoken of because He is the object of the sentence. For instance, "if we have died with Him" - if in that verse Christ is apart of the "we" then that would mean He died with Himself. That's not reasonable.

The Text speaks for itself. You say Jesus cannot be a part of the "we" spoken of because He is the object of the sentence. Wrong. You obviously haven't read these vereses using the interlinear.

As I said in my first post, the "we" is implied by the plurality of the verbs. Well guess what, so is the "in Him" part. BOTH are translated from the Greek because it is indeed obvious that's what Paul means.

4880 [e]
synapethanomen
συναπεθάνομεν ,
we have died together [with Him]

All six English words come from the ONE Greek verb. Just as He died, we have died "together". There is no "in him" in the Greek. It's translated that way because Paul was saying we are indeed together with Him.

Thus, it is entirely obvious that the "we" is indeed us AND Him together.

4800 [e]
syzēsomen
συζήσομεν ;
we will live together [with Him]

Same here

4821 [e]
symbasileusomen
συμβασιλεύσομεν* ;
we will reign together [with him]
Same here

All these verbs (including "if we deny Him") are simply 1st person plural verbs in the Greek so the translators put the "we" and "in Him" in the translations from the verb's form and context.

So there's every reason in the world to understand each verse as being us AND Him. We ARE in Him!

And He cannot deny Himself!

 

[Nathan]

The Text speaks for itself. You say Jesus cannot be a part of the "we" spoken of because He is the object of the sentence. Wrong. You obviously haven't read these vereses using the interlinear.

As I said in my first post, the "we" is implied by the plurality of the verbs. Well guess what, so is the "in Him" part. BOTH are translated from the Greek because it is indeed obvious that's what Paul means.

4880 [e]
synapethanomen
συναπεθάνομεν ,
we have died together [with Him]

All six English words come from the ONE Greek verb. Just as He died, we have died "together". There is no "in him" in the Greek. It's translated that way because Paul was saying we are indeed together with Him.

Thus, it is entirely obvious that the "we" is indeed us AND Him together.

4800 [e]
syzēsomen
συζήσομεν ;
we will live together [with Him]

Same here

4821 [e]
symbasileusomen
συμβασιλεύσομεν* ;
we will reign together [with him]
Same here

All these verbs (including "if we deny Him") are simply 1st person plural verbs in the Greek so the translators put the "we" and "in Him" in the translations from the verb's form and context.

So there's every reason in the world to understand each verse as being us AND Him. We ARE in Him!

And He cannot deny Himself!

Christ is in Himself?

You seem to be making something fit that is not even logical. If you don't want to answer my question just say so.

The "we" is obviously speaking of a(plural) persons, not a plural persons and Christ together to form "we".

2 Timothy 2:11 (ESV) 11 The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him;

Is the "we" in the above verse referring to us and Christ?

If so, would it read "if you, me, and Christ died with Christ, you, me, and Christ will live with Christ".

That does not even make sense.

You leave out the "if" when trying to make this argument. Christ died, He did not "if" die, He did die.

IF "we" is always mentioning us and Christ, then the verse below absolutely does not make sense because the next verse contradicts it.

2 Timothy 2:12 (ESV) 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Paul would not say "if we deny Him" if Christ was apart of the "we". It would then read;

"If you, me, and Christ deny Christ, then Christ will deny you, me, and Christ".

Why is it hard to understand Paul is speaking of him and Timothy?

What's not so funny is that Paul goes on to say;

2 Timothy 2:14 (ESV) 14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.

I find this ironic. I was trying to discuss a thought process and somehow it turned into an illogical quarrel about words. I suppose I can only blame myself for this.

 

[Eugene]

.
I’ve been reading through some of the posts on this thread, and have to wonder at their interpretations.
In Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Is this speaking of our eternal life?
We read in Rev 3:5 He that overcometh (How is that done? 1 Jn 5:4-5), the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

That being so if you believe it, and you have faith that Jesus can keep His word just what is the following scripture telling us: you do realize these words by Paul are the revealed words Jesus gave Paul , don’t you?
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer (Endure), we shall also reign with him (As what? Rom 8:17): if we deny him, he also will deny us: (Reigning as what? Joint heirs as His bride? There are also those or Rev 3:10 which are spared entering the temptation that shall come upon all the world because they faithfully keep the word.)
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (Who is this “Himself Jesus is referred to as being denied? Are we not His very body? Col 1:18 & Col 1:24?)

 

[Nathan]

Revelation 22
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

God cannot take away something that a person does not already have.

 

[atpollard]

The Text speaks for itself. You say Jesus cannot be a part of the "we" spoken of because He is the object of the sentence. Wrong. You obviously haven't read these vereses using the interlinear.

As I said in my first post, the "we" is implied by the plurality of the verbs. Well guess what, so is the "in Him" part. BOTH are translated from the Greek because it is indeed obvious that's what Paul means.

4880 [e]
synapethanomen
συναπεθάνομεν ,
we have died together [with Him]

All six English words come from the ONE Greek verb. Just as He died, we have died "together". There is no "in him" in the Greek. It's translated that way because Paul was saying we are indeed together with Him.

Thus, it is entirely obvious that the "we" is indeed us AND Him together.

4800 [e]
syzēsomen
συζήσομεν ;
we will live together [with Him]

Same here

4821 [e]
symbasileusomen
συμβασιλεύσομεν* ;
we will reign together [with him]
Same here

All these verbs (including "if we deny Him") are simply 1st person plural verbs in the Greek so the translators put the "we" and "in Him" in the translations from the verb's form and context.

So there's every reason in the world to understand each verse as being us AND Him. We ARE in Him!

And He cannot deny Himself!

Thank you.
That was a great read and an interesting fact that I want to go check out further.

 

[Nathan]

.
I’ve been reading through some of the posts on this thread, and have to wonder at their interpretations.
In Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Is this speaking of our eternal life?
We read in Rev 3:5 He that overcometh (How is that done? 1 Jn 5:4-5), the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

That being so if you believe it, and you have faith that Jesus can keep His word just what is the following scripture telling us: you do realize these words by Paul are the revealed words Jesus gave Paul , don’t you?
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer (Endure), we shall also reign with him (As what? Rom 8:17): if we deny him, he also will deny us: (Reigning as what? Joint heirs as His bride? There are also those or Rev 3:10 which are spared entering the temptation that shall come upon all the world because they faithfully keep the word.)
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (Who is this “Himself Jesus is referred to as being denied? Are we not His very body? Col 1:18 & Col 1:24?)

If someone denies Christ, do we actually think The Father is going to accept them into the kingdom - in anyway? Is this something we are to teach?

1 John 2
21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.

 

[Eugene]

If someone denies Christ, do we actually think The Father is going to accept them into the kingdom - in anyway?

I suppose it is subject as to whether Jesus meant what He said in Rev 3:5, I will not blot out his name out of the book of life. Are you really in the book of life today? How sure, and if so, why? I'll not go further with this until I know what you think you are in Christ, or probably better said: who do you think you are in Christ?

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (but what if I deny You?)
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

 

[JLB]

I suppose it is subject as to whether Jesus meant what He said in Rev 3:5, I will not blot out his name out of the book of life. Are you really in the book of life today? How sure, and if so, why? I'll not go further with this until I know what you think you are in Christ, or probably better said: who do you think you are in Christ?

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (but what if I deny You?)
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

• The context is speaking about the Apostles.

8 Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,” 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.” John 18:8-9

• The context is speaking about the Apostles.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12



39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:39-40


Here is what Jesus just got through saying in John 5:28-29

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB

 

[Eugene]

• The context is speaking about the Apostles.

Morning Brother JLB.
So are you saying that only the original apostles are written in the book of life whose names will not be erased according to Rev 3:5?
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.