Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[JLB]

The condition of believing in the present results in having eternal life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

And in this verse, Jesus was clear: those given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

How is that not eternal security for those given eternal life?

Please explain how the condition of believing is no longer required after a person has repented and believed.

Unbelief is plainly described as not continuing to believe, which is described as not continuing to obey.

Unbelief is Disobedience.

Unbelief is not continuing to believe.

If a person believes for a while, then no longer believes, they are no longer a believer, having returned to unbelief.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:12-19


Eternal life is promised to those who believe, not those who do not believe.


Same exact thing Jesus taught:

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Believe is the condition for salvation.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.


It's up to you to prove, that those who are unbelieving, who no longer believe, still somehow satisfy the condition for salvation and eternal life, with scripture.



JLB

 

[Nathan]

Concerning the ones Jesus spoke to in Jn 10:28-29, could they become saved at a later date? Suppose they believed in Jesus after His Resurrection, could they be saved after His Resurrection?

Yes.

Salvation is available to the whole world - some will believe in it and some won't. I do not agree with the idea of being 'saved' as a date in the past. I do believe that there is a definite mark of time when someone first believes(receives faith), and because of that they understand they have been set free from the slavery of sin and have life in Christ. But I do not believe in the idea of being 'saved' as a person doing something(as in making a profession of belief, etc) and then receiving a 'certificate' of completion.

But I thought that I had already answered that in a previous question? I figured your last question was trying to ask something different?

 

[Papa Zoom]

I'm not going to engage in this debate where one is unwilling to acknowledge the other's points of discussion. As I read some of these back-and-forth arguments I can't help but be reminded of the scene from the Monty Python series where the guard at a bridge denied passage and during the ensuing battle the guard lost both arms and legs and still denied that he was injured and continued to challenge his foe.

great analogy! That's exactly what we see in some of these discussions.

 

[Jim Parker]

Concerning the ones Jesus spoke to in Jn 10:28-29, could they become saved at a later date? Suppose they believed in Jesus after His Resurrection, could they be saved after His Resurrection?

His brothers, who did not believe before His resurrection,(John 7:5) were among the 120 in the upper room, presumably as believers since they were soon filled with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 1:14)

 

[FreeGrace]

Then is a goat always a goat? Do you believe sheep and goats are created as such and can never be either or?

I must assume we're still discussing the sheep of John 10. There are no goats in that chapter. So any mention of goats is irrelevant to the discussion of sheep in ch 10 of John.

When Jesus talked about laying down His life for THE sheep, He was referring to all of mankind.

When Jesus talked about HIS sheep, He was referring to believers, saved people.

When Jesus talked about those NOT of HIS sheep, He was referring to unbelievers, unsaved people.

THE sheep: v.7,11,12,13,15
MY sheep: v.14,16,27
NOT My sheep: v.26

Therefore, your question is not relevant to this discussion.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please explain how the condition of believing is no longer required after a person has repented and believed.

When a person first believes, they HAVE (as in possession) eternal life.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life to will never perish, in John 10:28. And He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

Eternal life is promised to those who believe, not those who do not believe.

That's not what Jesus said. John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

When one believes, they HAVE eternal life according to Jesus. What IS promised is eternity itself. But the actual eternal life is given WHEN one believes.

13 But the ones on the rock

are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Sure. Those who believe for a while HAVE eternal life, according to Jesus in John 5:24. And He promises that they will never perish in John 10:28.

Believe is the condition for salvation.

It sure is.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

I've asked many times where this is actually stated in Scripture, but I've been given any verses? Why is that?

Unless there is clear and plainly worded verses that say what is claimed, it is merely an opinion or an assumption.

It's up to you to prove, that those who are unbelieving, who no longer believe, still somehow satisfy the condition for salvation and eternal life, with scripture.

This issue isn't about the unbelieving, but those who HAVE EVER believed.

Because once a person believes, Jesus says they HAVE eternal life (Jn 5:24) and they will NEVER perish (Jn 10:28).

What ever happens AFTER they have believed is covered by God's blessings or discipline. Blessings for obedience and faithfulness, and painful discipline for rebellion and disobedience (Heb 12:11).

 

[JLB]

He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life

Hopefully now you can see just how contradictory it is to claim that the condition for eternal life is to believe, then turn right around and say there is no condition for eternal life.

That is why bible believing Christian should never give heed to such a teaching that is so contradictory.

• The promise of eternal life in Christ is for those who believe, not for those who don't believe.

Those who believe for a while, then depart from Christ, because they do not believe, are no longer believers, and have no promise of eternal life.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” Hebrews 3:12-15



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Hopefully now you can see just how contradictory it is to claim that the condition for eternal life is to believe, then turn right around and say there is no condition for eternal life.

Apparently my points aren't being understood. Or read maybe.

Once a person believes, they HAVE eternal life. It seems that is not your belief, but that is what Jesus said in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

If there is a verse that explicitly teaches that eternal life can be taken away, please share. But as it is, one actually HAS eternal life when they believe. So your point is moot. One who has believed has eternal life. No one has shown otherwise.

That is why bible believing Christian should ever give heed to such a teaching that is so contradictory.

This is what is contradictory teaching: that a person who has believed, is saved, has eternal life, CAN perish, when Jesus said those He gives eternal life will NEVER perish.

See the contradiction? CAN perish vs NEVER perish. Quite clear.

Those who believe for a while, then depart from Christ, because they do not believe, and no longer believers, and have no promise of eternal life.

But Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish, in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” Hebrews 3:12-15

If this verse did teach that one can lose salvation by "departing from the living God", then it should be clear that one's salvation is one's OWN HAND. Not in God's hand. Hm.

So, what does the Bible say about all this?

John 10:28,29
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

So, from these 2 verses, it should be clear that our salvation is in God's hand, not our own. And He's not letting any leave His hand.

 

[JLB]

Apparently my points aren't being understood. Or read maybe.

Once a person believes, they HAVE eternal life. It seems that is not your belief, but that is what Jesus said in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

If there is a verse that explicitly teaches that eternal life can be taken away, please share. But as it is, one actually HAS eternal life when they believe. So your point is moot. One who has believed has eternal life. No one has shown otherwise.


This is what is contradictory teaching: that a person who has believed, is saved, has eternal life, CAN perish, when Jesus said those He gives eternal life will NEVER perish.

See the contradiction? CAN perish vs NEVER perish. Quite clear.


But Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish, in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.


If this verse did teach that one can lose salvation by "departing from the living God", then it should be clear that one's salvation is one's OWN HAND. Not in God's hand. Hm.

So, what does the Bible say about all this?

John 10:28,29
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

So, from these 2 verses, it should be clear that our salvation is in God's hand, not our own. And He's not letting any leave His hand.

I can read exactly what you are attempting to teach Gods people.

Your theology claims that people can believe in Christ Jesus as Lord yesterday, then today they can believe Allah is Lord, and still have the eternal life that is only promised to those who believe.

Your theology is claiming that hypocrites who believe yesterday then when persecution is at hand, they can renounce Jesus Christ, and turn to the religion of the persecutors so as to save themselves.

That is not what the Bible teaches.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:13

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, no longer fulfill the condition for eternal life.

Unless you can show a scripture that says the unbelieving have eternal life, then you are promoting an unbiblical doctrine.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21

He who endures to the end will be saved.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

No, John 5:24 doesn't say that. The one who hears and believes HAS eternal life.


It should be obvious. The fact that one who believes HAS eternal life indicates that they HAVE it when they initially believed.

Unless there are any verses that specifically address receiving eternal life some time LATER than when one first believes, there is NO REASON to assume it is given later on.

When do you think one has eternal life, if not at initial faith? And if not at initial faith, where does the Bible indicate such?

Doesn't say anything about when they hear and believe. It just says, 'he who hears my word'. So in the context of his teaching, he is saying, the Son gives life. The Son has authority, even as the Father, to raise the dead and to give life, and all judgment has been given to him, that all may honour him even as they honour the Father. John 5:21-23

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

 

[FreeGrace]

I can read exactly what you are attempting to teach Gods people.

What I am teaching comes directly from Jesus Himself.

Your theology claims that people can believe in Christ Jesus as Lord yesterday, then today they can believe Allah is Lord, and still have the eternal life that is only promised to those who believe.

Actually, Jesus said that those He gives eternal life to will never perish in John 10:28. It seems your view is radically different than what Jesus said about it. Why is that?

Your theology is claiming that hypocrites who believe yesterday then when persecution is at hand, they can renounce Jesus Christ, and turn to the religion of the persecutors so as to save themselves.

Actually, Jesus said that those he gives eternal life to will never perish. It seems your view is radically different than what Jesus said about it. Why?

That is not what the Bible teaches.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish. Period. All your conditions were not mentioned by Him.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:13

What is glaringly missing from this verse is ANY mention of losing salvation by "believing for a while". There is NO REASON to assume such a thing. Jesus never taught that.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, no longer fulfill the condition for eternal life.

The point Jesus made in John 10:28 has been missed by a mile.

The guarantee and promise of never perishing is based on receiving eternal life, which is received WHEN one believes, per Jesus' words in John 5:24.

Unless you can show a scripture that says the unbelieving have eternal life, then you are promoting an unbiblical doctrine.

I do not understand why anyone would want to argue with Jesus about who will never perish, given what He so very clearly said in Jn 10:28 about recipients of eternal life will never perish.

By simply receiving the irrevocable gift (Rom 6:23 and 11:29) of eternal life, the recipient will never perish (Jn 10:28).

No one has shown any other meaning for Jn 10:28.

Nor can there be. Because that verse is crystal clear. Recipients of eternal life will never perish.

Those who know that one receives eternal life WHEN one believes, per Jn 5:24, also know that from being given eternal life, the recipient will never perish. Because Jesus said so.

Please address each of my points here to show how they do not line up with Scripture. Everything I've posted here is backed up by clear Scripture. No assuming, which is necessary for all the verses and passages provided by those who think salvation can be lost.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"No, John 5:24 doesn't say that. The one who hears and believes HAS eternal life.


It should be obvious. The fact that one who believes HAS eternal life indicates that they HAVE it when they initially believed.

Unless there are any verses that specifically address receiving eternal life some time LATER than when one first believes, there is NO REASON to assume it is given later on.

When do you think one has eternal life, if not at initial faith? And if not at initial faith, where does the Bible indicate such?"

Doesn't say anything about when they hear and believe. It just says, 'he who hears my word'. So in the context of his teaching, he is saying, the Son gives life.

He said MUCH MORE than just that. He said whoever believes HAS eternal life. So, when is eternal life given, if NOT at initial faith? And what verse has informed you of your answer?

I noticed that my question above was not answered. So I've given it again. For clarification of your position.

 

[JLB]

What I am teaching comes directly from Jesus Himself.

I wouldn't know, since all I have seen from you, is you stating what you think, then tagging it with a scripture reference, while ignoring the context, and refusing to address the actual words that Jesus spoke, or the context.


Here let's try it again.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

Jesus said those who hears His words, not just the words you choose to hear, while disregarding the rest of His words in context.

Here are the only words you seem to want to hear:... believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life

• Here are more of His words in context:

all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

It is those who have done good, who will come forth in the resurrection of life.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Paul taught the same thing to the Gentile Church:

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


Jesus: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Paul: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"What I am teaching comes directly from Jesus Himself."

I wouldn't know

There is no excuse for not knowing what I have been teaching. I've given the verses enough.

since all I have seen from you, is you stating what you think, then tagging it with a scripture reference, while ignoring the context, and refusing to address the actual words that Jesus spoke, or the context.

Unbelievable error. I've given the EXACT WORDS that Jesus spoke, as anyone who reads this thread knows.

Here let's try it again.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

Jesus said those who hears His words, not just the words you choose to hear, while disregarding the rest of His words in context.

How come there has been NO explanation how not giving v.25-29 means something other than what v.24 SAYS??

All you've done is complain about v25-29, as if somehow they make v.24 say something other than what I've pointed out. Yet, without ANY explanation of what v.24 CLEARLY SAYS.

Here are the only words you seem to want to hear:... believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life

OK, did Jesus say that or not?

Here are more of His words in context:

all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

It is those who have done good, who will come forth in the resurrection of life.

So what? How does this mean that Jesus didn't mean that whoever believes has eternal life??

Instead of just complaining, how about providing some explanation of what Jesus meant in v.24?

Paul taught the same thing to the Gentile Church:

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

OK, so what again? What was Jesus saying (meaning) in v.24 then?

Jesus: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Paul: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

What was Jesus saying in v.24 about when one HAS eternal life?

Instead of complaining about what I've posted, how about just telling us what Jesus was saying (meant) in v.24?

That's how to advance the discussion. Not just complaining about what others post.

Go ahead and jump in with your understanding of v.24 and WHEN one HAS eternal life.

Unless you're just not sure of WHEN one HAS eternal life. In that case, it's ok to just admit it.

 

[MarkT]

I said this:
"No, John 5:24 doesn't say that. The one who hears and believes HAS eternal life.


It should be obvious. The fact that one who believes HAS eternal life indicates that they HAVE it when they initially believed.

Unless there are any verses that specifically address receiving eternal life some time LATER than when one first believes, there is NO REASON to assume it is given later on.

When do you think one has eternal life, if not at initial faith? And if not at initial faith, where does the Bible indicate such?"

He said MUCH MORE than just that. He said whoever believes HAS eternal life. So, when is eternal life given, if NOT at initial faith? And what verse has informed you of your answer?

I noticed that my question above was not answered. So I've given it again. For clarification of your position.

John 5:24 is a true statement. He said, 'he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life' because his teachings were not his teachings, rather they were the Father's teachings. “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me; John 7:16 So this is he who hears his word and he believes the Father who sent him. He has eternal life. This is assuming he has ears to hear and a believing heart.

And what is his word? His word is, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him." John 3:36

Re. eternal life I see it as a gift and a reward. Also an inheritance. Col 3:24 Mt. 19:29 The end of sanctification. Ro. 6:22 I'd say you have to be born again, born of the Spirit, and receive the Spirit of truth, to have eternal life.

 

[Gregg T]

JLB said:

Your theology claims that people can believe in Christ Jesus as Lord yesterday, then today they can believe Allah is Lord, and still have the eternal life that is only promised to those who believe.

to which FreeGrace applied:

Actually, Jesus said that those he gives eternal life to will never perish. It seems your view is radically different than what Jesus said about it. Why is that?

Wouldn't it be most likely that one who professed faith in Christ, and then later converted to Islam, was never saved at all? I say this based on 1Jn 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they left so that it might be revealed that they all are not of us."

 

[Gregg T]

I wouldn't know, since all I have seen from you, is you stating what you think, then tagging it with a scripture reference, while ignoring the context, and refusing to address the actual words that Jesus spoke, or the context.

Are you not aware that this is the very same thing thought of you?

 

[Gregg T]

FreeGrace's quote followed by JLB's reply:

Jesus said those He gives eternal life to will never perish, in John 10:28. And He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

Hopefully now you can see just how contradictory it is to claim that the condition for eternal life is to believe, then turn right around and say there is no condition for eternal life.

JLB,
FreeGrace did not say 'no condition for eternal life', but
he did say 'no coditions for recipients of eternal life'

Big difference in meanings. Was that unintentional on your part?

 

[MarkT]

Recipients doesn't tell us they are his sheep and they follow him. The truth is they are his sheep, and he is their Shepherd, and his sheep follow him. And the truth is his sheep will not follow a stranger. Jesus is telling us in advance that his sheep will not follow a stranger.

To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” John 10:3-5

 

[FreeGrace]

John 5:24 is a true statement. He said, 'he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life' because his teachings were not his teachings, rather they were the Father's teachings. “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me; John 7:16 So this is he who hears his word and he believes the Father who sent him. He has eternal life. This is assuming he has ears to hear and a believing heart.

And what is his word? His word is, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him." John 3:36

I will point out that the Greek word for "not obey" is 'apietho' and is defined by lexicon as "not obey, or not believe".

The point of Jn 5:24 is that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. It is a present possession on the basis of believing.

So, it should be obvious that WHEN one first believes in Christ, they possess eternal life.

Now, in John 10:28, Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. There's no getting around that promise.

Re. eternal life I see it as a gift and a reward.

I respectfully disagree. A reward, by definition, is earned. Salvation is by grace, and therefore, cannot be earned.