[__ Science __ ] Scientific argument for God's existence

[Clizby]

true - you can't see God - you can only see the evidence of God - if you can't see evidence of God in this world then i am sorry to hear that - creation scientists and students of creation science can - unless you are calling us all liars -

Why your attitude? I am not calling anyone a liar. I am just saying I am not convinced by your evidence.

christians who are not scientists can see evidence of God in this world - atheists who study science can find evidence of God and become creation scientists

Ok, but I am not convinced by anything that creationists have put forth as proof. I can demonstrate that evolution occurred, I cannot demonstrate that god created everything thousands of years ago, no one can.

if that means you are done seeking God i can understand that - but it does not change the truth of God's existence

I agree that whether i believe something or not does not say anything about the truth of it. But why should I believe something without sufficient evidence?

so then why are you here? - to tell us we are fools or liars for believing in God or to try one more time to find out if God is real?

Just STOP! I have never called anyone a fool or a liar and I have never said that I deny gods existence as you have repeated many times. Not believing in a god you believe in does not make you a liar, it means that we disagree on the evidence. That's it.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Sorry Clizby. Just one more thought from me today. Somethimes I'm a bit long winded.

Regarding whether God exists or not. If looking at the natural world doesn't point to a designer to you, then I would recommend looking at the matter like a detective does more then how a scientist would. Take into account the testimony of people who say they've found God or that God has done something in their lives. That can considered a possibility or at least a lead to what really happened, but it doesn't have to be accepted or rejected before looking at where the information leads to. The number of people in the world who say they've had God intervene in their lives is large enough to not ignore or to explain that it was either coincidence, or that they imagined it. Especially if God's done something in your own life.

I'm sorry that I can't recreate a situation to prove God exists and help you or anyone else find Him. But neither can I walk away from my own experiences as if they didn't happen. For me the question hasn't been about if God exists. But about who God is, and which religions could have been from Him. I've since then grown up and been baffled by the amount of people that don't even know that God exists. I wonder how my experiences could be that rare.

I hope you find Him someday. I think God is very much a worthwhile find. He's comforted me in my sadness several times in my life. In moments of depressing thoughts spiraling out of control, that is no small matter. He's answered a few of my prayers. Surprisingly real answers like helping me stay awake on the road one night with a simple silent prayer of "help please," resulted in a sudden jolt of alertness that lasted for several more hours. I got home safely and then couldn't go to sleep for a while. I think the extra time awake was just a way of God letting me know that this wakefulness was from Him, that He really did answer that prayer.

 

[Truthfrees]

It is not indoctrination to look at the actual evidence and be convinced.

it is indoctrination to look at the scientific work of only evolutionists and not other scientists

 

[Clizby]

To Clizby
Sorry, I know those are outside the scope of these topics, because they have little or nothing to do with whether or not God exists. But I didn't want to continue the idea that God can't exist because of historical models of the universe, or evolutionary explanations of the world. Don't let those get in the way. They aren't reliable enough to either confirm that God exist, nor to challenge that God exists.

Thanks for the post. I am not well read on what scientists think about psychology or behavior as related to evolution. I do know that evolution does explain and demonstrate the diversity of life of this planet.

Also, I agree that the existence of god does not depend on the truthfulness of evolution. Evolution could be true or false and god could either exist or not. I will say that if evolution is true then the bible stories that contradict evolution cannot be taken as literal.

 

[Clizby]

Sorry Clizby. Just one more thought from me today. Somethimes I'm a bit long winded.

Regarding whether God exists or not. If looking at the natural world doesn't point to a designer to you, then I would recommend looking at the matter like a detective does more then how a scientist would. Take into account the testimony of people who say they've found God or that God has done something in their lives. That can considered a possibility or at least a lead to what really happened, but it doesn't have to be accepted or rejected before looking at where the information leads to. The number of people in the world who say they've had God intervene in their lives is large enough to not ignore or to explain that it was either coincidence, or that they imagined it. Especially if God's done something in your own life.

I do listen to people but no one can provide sufficient evidence that god had anything to do with the situation. The number of people that believes something says nothing of the truth of the claim. I get what you are saying but why does your god need to be elusive if he exists? He was not for Paul, Moses, Thomas etc.

I'm sorry that I can't recreate a situation to prove God exists and help you or anyone else find Him. But neither can I walk away from my own experiences as if they didn't happen. For me the question hasn't been about if God exists. But about who God is, and which religions could have been from Him. I've since then grown up and been baffled by the amount of people that don't even know that God exists. I wonder how my experiences could be that rare.

I am not saying your belief is wrong just that I don't have sufficient evidence to believe you are right. It is not your responsibility to provide evidence, it should be gods responsibility.

I hope you find Him someday. I think God is very much a worthwhile find. He's comforted me in my sadness several times in my life. In moments of depressing thoughts spiraling out of control, that is no small matter. He's answered a few of my prayers. Surprisingly real answers like helping me stay awake on the road one night with a simple silent prayer of "help please," resulted in a sudden jolt of alertness that lasted for several more hours. I got home safely and then couldn't go to sleep for a while. I think the extra time awake was just a way of God letting me know that this wakefulness was from Him, that He really did answer that prayer.

I want to be clear that I am not denying your experiences, I just don't have enough evidence to believe that god was behind them.

 

[Clizby]

millions of biological scientists?

you have not studied the works of creation scientists - so your study is still one sided

This is untrue. I have studies creation sciene and ID and both are not convincing. For one, creationism cannot be falsified, so it is not science. Do you know of a way to falsify creationism?

 

[Clizby]

it is indoctrination to look at the scientific work of only evolutionists and not other scientists

That is not what I have done. Please stop making assumptions about me and the saying untrue things. Can you just have a conversation and ask me what I believe and why?

How old do you think the earth is?

 

[Clizby]

fair enough - we do disagree - evidence is not so much the disagreement - how to interpret that evidence is the issue

Evidence is not interpreted it is analyzed and reviewed and retested and modified then reconfirmed etc.

flowers producing a new flower does not seem to me to be proof of speciation of the magnitude required for evolution to produce every species on earth from one original life form

I never said it was.

the prolific variety of unique species imo proves creation - especially if you consider the relatively short time all the species appeared in the geological strata - https://creation.com/cambrian-explosion

Your "proof" is just a hypothesis, you need to provide evidence that they were created not just assert that they were even if this somehow disproves evolution which it does not.

Fossils out of order - creation.com

Out of order fossils are actually a weak spot for evolution

creation.com

Many false claims in this article about evolution.

 

[Michael74]

...why does your god need to be elusive if he exists? He was not for Paul, Moses, Thomas etc.

Something to consider. Paul was obedient. Once he was told the truth by Divine intervention, Paul went where he was told to and preached the Gospel even though he was whipped, stoned, shipwrecked, and eventually executed. The people who hear regularly from God tend to be those who are willing to do what are told, when they are told to do it, and the way they are told to do it.

Moses similar. He was told to go confront a powerful ruler who could execute people as he saw fit. Moses went.

The people who hear from God tend to be those who are willing to follow His directions to the letter. No changes. No additions. They might ask questions to make sure they understand the directions, but once they understand they do as they are told.

 

[Michael74]

I have studies creation sciene and ID and both are not convincing.

Okay, if you have decided that science is not sufficiently advanced to either prove or disprove whether God exists, why not try a different approach. Go to a church where they do hear from God. Not back to wherever it was before.

I know that you won't be convinced if I tell you that God healed me for example. Its something that you seem to want to experience for yourself before you believe.

Once I had a condition where my eyes were seeing everything flickering. Like a strobe light was constantly illuminating things. The docs were still doing tests to figure it out when I went to a prayer meeting. They offered to pray for me, and I said yes. I felt a lot of hands on my back as they prayed for me. I was healed. Decades later I am still healed.

Go find people like that. People who know how to pray, and hear from God because they obey God. Keep searching until you find such a group of people. No matter how long it takes. God will see that you are earnestly seeking Him. That now, at long last, you are finally willing to seek Him, and not just accept what other people are telling you He wants you to do. That you will obey His every command without question, no matter what people say or do.

There is nothing more important to you than your salvation. Where you will spend eternity. May the Lord bless you.

 

[Clizby]

Something to consider. Paul was obedient. Once he was told the truth by Divine intervention, Paul went where he was told to and preached the Gospel even though he was whipped, stoned, shipwrecked, and eventually executed. The people who hear regularly from God tend to be those who are willing to do what are told, when they are told to do it, and the way they are told to do it.

Then why wouldn't god do the same for everyone?

Moses similar. He was told to go confront a powerful ruler who could execute people as he saw fit. Moses went.

I am not convinced Moses actually existed.

The people who hear from God tend to be those who are willing to follow His directions to the letter. No changes. No additions. They might ask questions to make sure they understand the directions, but once they understand they do as they are told.

Again, why are these stories to be considered true? Why wouldn't god do this for everyone?

 

[Michael74]

Then why wouldn't god do the same for everyone?

He will. If they will obey Him when He tells them to do something. You have to tune in on the obedience frequency if you want to hear from God on a regular basis.

 

[Clizby]

Okay, if you have decided that science is not sufficiently advanced to either prove or disprove whether God exists, why not try a different approach. Go to a church where they do hear from God. Not back to wherever it was before.

How do I know if they are hearing from god and not demons, Allah or another spirit or if they are really hearing at all?

I know that you won't be convinced if I tell you that God healed me for example. Its something that you seem to want to experience for yourself before you believe.

Not really. I would just need sufficient evidence of a miraculous healing.

Once I had a condition where my eyes were seeing everything flickering. Like a strobe light was constantly illuminating things. The docs were still doing tests to figure it out when I went to a prayer meeting. They offered to pray for me, and I said yes. I felt a lot of hands on my back as they prayed for me. I was healed. Decades later I am still healed.

That is great, I believe you were healed just not convinced it was god that healed you. What convinced you god healed you?

Go find people like that. People who know how to pray, and hear from God because they obey God. Keep searching until you find such a group of people. No matter how long it takes. God will see that you are earnestly seeking Him. That now, at long last, you are finally willing to seek Him, and not just accept what other people are telling you He wants you to do. That you will obey His every command without question, no matter what people say or do.

I did for 18 years. My wife still is a believer. Why should I dedicate any more of my life to the christian faith? Doing that has a cost. Maybe Allah is real or maybe saving unicorns are real? Would you dedicate your life to finding a saving unicorn?

There is nothing more important to you than your salvation. Where you will spend eternity. May the Lord bless you.

All god has to do is demonstrate he exists and he is a moral agent to follow. Seems like he should have the power to do that.

 

[Clizby]

He will. If they will obey Him when He tells them to do something. You have to tune in on the obedience frequency if you want to hear from God on a regular basis.

Perfectly obey?

 

[Boaz]

Yes, intelligent design makes more sense, given the order and complexity extant.

A really, really good book that lays out the myriad ways both practical and bizarre (from a people point of view) complex and even at times humorous design contained in our created world is More Than Meets The Eye by Richard A Swenson. M. D. I read it a long time ago but it floored me. The things we take for granted, even the magnificent way our own body systems are designed, as we go about our lives contain such irrefutable claims of a intelligent design, therefore a Designer. Couldn't be an alien. Had to be a One utterly self existent and independent of the design, the creation. An I Am. We can believe in His existence, and be eternally awed that He would choose to reveal Himself to us, in nature, but in a personal, deeper and saving way through His word. But our finite minds are unable to comprehend this Always Am. You cannot ever get something from nothing so there HAS to be an I Am. That is why it takes Faith.

 

[Boaz]

This is untrue. I was a believer for 18 years and earnestly sought him. When it came down to my doubt God never revealed himself to me even though I was sincere.

Maybe He hasn't YET?

 

[Clizby]

Maybe He hasn't YET?

How do I tell the difference between a god that has not revealed himself and a god that does not exist?

 

[Boaz]

Right, I must be doing something wrong. Does God want me to be saved?

You are not doing anything wrong in this regard and I can say that even though I do not know what you are doing. It isn't a matter of doing everything right and then and only then God will reveal Himself to you. Keep searching. You'll know it when you find it. I was on a search for truth from at least teenage years until I was 35. I looked everywhere, different religions and theories and the occult etc. I finally concluded that even if I found the truth there would be no way for me to truly know it was truth. The story is long and complicated but RD version: the "story" that Jesus saves was presented to me ad nauseam for seven years. In one ear and out the other. But there came a day when I did believe and the strangest thing, I knew I had found the truth. That was 38 years ago. So don't give up the search. God treats us individuals as individuals. He will be there at just the right time in Just the right way for you.

 

[Boaz]

Yet original equipment knees regularly last 80 plus years. Human designed replacement knees last 15 to 20 years on average, then they have to be replaced yet again. No thanks. I'll keep my original equipment knee.

I would ask to you consider that no one in their right mind asks to have a healthy knee replaced by an artificial one, just because the engineers claim that theirs is better. They only go for the engineer's model if they have no other choice. Everyone who can keeps their original knees.

Just because engineers claim something, that does not make it so.

This is a very good argument!

 

[Boaz]

Then he is not revealing himself to me. If god is revealing himself to me then I would know he exists. Does god know what would convince me he exists?

Yes God knows what would convince you. If you are looking for empirical evidence, something like God appearing and saying "here I am," that likely won't happen. As was stated by another person in Romans it clearly stated that everyone knows that God exists by what is seen in nature. Of course that would be no proof to you if you aren't convinced that the Bible is the final authority on the subject. Still it's true that somewhere, something inside you knows that God exists. No one can prove to you that God exists, all anyone can do is point out evidence of His existence, which to you is not evidence. God is way above the necessity of having to prove His existence to ANYONE. It isn't a question of proof. It is a question of faith, of belief, in what you cannot see. And you will not find that inside of yourself but I would take bets that if you keep "looking" it will be given to you. And when it happens, you will know it. It is quite possible that though it feels to you like you are searching, in actuality you are being pursued. It won't happen one moment sooner or later than what is absolutely the most perfect for you. You'll see.