[__ Science __ ] Scientific argument for God's existence

[Boaz]

Why your attitude? I am not calling anyone a liar. I am just saying I am not convinced by your evidence.

Ok, but I am not convinced by anything that creationists have put forth as proof. I can demonstrate that evolution occurred, I cannot demonstrate that god created everything thousands of years ago, no one can.

I agree that whether i believe something or not does not say anything about the truth of it. But why should I believe something without sufficient evidence?

Just STOP! I have never called anyone a fool or a liar and I have never said that I deny gods existence as you have repeated many times. Not believing in a god you believe in does not make you a liar, it means that we disagree on the evidence. That's it.

 

[Boaz]

Why your attitude? I am not calling anyone a liar. I am just saying I am not convinced by your evidence.

Ok, but I am not convinced by anything that creationists have put forth as proof. I can demonstrate that evolution occurred, I cannot demonstrate that god created everything thousands of years ago, no one can.

I agree that whether i believe something or not does not say anything about the truth of it. But why should I believe something without sufficient evidence?

Just STOP! I have never called anyone a fool or a liar and I have never said that I deny gods existence as you have repeated many times. Not believing in a god you believe in does not make you a liar, it means that we disagree on the evidence. That's it.

I have been in exactly this same place where people kept telling me what Iwas saying, even what I believed, and no matter how many times I told them, no, that is not what I said, or no, that is not what I believe they kept coming back at me insisting I said what I did not. It's maddening! To be honest, in your case I think they are having trouble understanding the difference between "not believing in God" and "denying His existence." If it's any help, I understand what you are saying even if I disagree with some of your conclusions!

 

[Boaz]

He will. If they will obey Him when He tells them to do something. You have to tune in on the obedience frequency if you want to hear from God on a regular basis.

The obedience frequency?!

 

[WIP]

You need to demonstrate that the Bible is the word of God and then show it is a moral book first. Then I will look to it for guidance.

Morality comes from God. Without God there is no morality, only personal opinion. In other words, if we did evolve naturally via evolution, the basis for our morality comes from each person's independent view of what is moral for them. There is no true standard.

 

[Michael74]

The obedience frequency?!

I heard that phrase in a sermon. The pastor said people who don't hear from God regularly are telling on themselves. They don't do what they are told to do. The phrase tuning in on the obedience frequency just stayed in my mind.

 

[Boaz]

I heard that phrase in a sermon. The pastor said people who don't hear from God regularly are telling on themselves. They don't do what they are told to do. The phrase tuning in on the obedience frequency just stayed in my mind.

Oh. Ok.

 

[Michael74]

Perfectly obey?

Consider Moses whom you cited earlier. In Numbers 20 Moses was commanded to speak to a rock. Instead, Moses struck the rock. Because Moses did not follow directions, he was banned from the Promised Land.

 

[Michael74]

The things we take for granted, even the magnificent way our own body systems are designed...

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. Psalm 139:14 KJV

I have studied biology a bit. Its amazing the number of complicated micro bio-machines in people.

 

[Michael74]

Doing that has a cost.

Have you considered the cost of not finding out?

 

[Boaz]

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. Psalm 139:14 KJV

I have studied biology a bit. Its amazing the number of complicated micro bio-machines in people.

If you read that book More Than Meets The Eye I would love to know your reaction to it. I hate the word I'm about to use unless it directly refers to God, but I can't find another one. I thought it was AWESOME!

 

[Clizby]

I have been in exactly this same place where people kept telling me what Iwas saying, even what I believed, and no matter how many times I told them, no, that is not what I said, or no, that is not what I believe they kept coming back at me insisting I said what I did not. It's maddening! To be honest, in your case I think they are having trouble understanding the difference between "not believing in God" and "denying His existence." If it's any help, I understand what you are saying even if I disagree with some of your conclusions!

Thanks. It is frustrating getting told what I believe. I try to never do that to another but the problem is that in the Bible it says that I do believe. However, no one can believe something and not know it. We cannot choose to believe or not to believe something. We are either convinced by the evidence or we are not.

 

[Clizby]

Morality comes from God. Without God there is no morality, only personal opinion. In other words, if we did evolve naturally via evolution, the basis for our morality comes from each person's independent view of what is moral for them. There is no true standard.

You need to demonstrate god exists first before attributing morality to it. A persons morality can be objective to a goal. So my morality comes from comparing my actions to well being of persons in a situation. I can evaluate my actions to that subjective standard objectively. Using reason I can have a coherent and helpful morality.
Are you claiming that morality comes from the Christian God? If so, I bet you don't agree with His morality. Would you ever own another person as property or force a woman to marry her rapist for example? Would you kill two people for lying about how much they sold a piece of property for? I bet not.

 

[Clizby]

Consider Moses whom you cited earlier. In Numbers 20 Moses was commanded to speak to a rock. Instead, Moses struck the rock. Because Moses did not follow directions, he was banned from the Promised Land.

Yes, but he still revealed himself to Moses. Why won't he reveal himself to everyone and let them make up their mind to follow him or not?

 

[Clizby]

Have you considered the cost of not finding out?

Finding out which God claim? Should I spend my entire life looking at every god claim there is? Have you spent any time considering if Allah is true or Vishnu?

The better method is to go with where the evidence leads and that is non belief.

 

[Boaz]

Thanks. It is frustrating getting told what I believe. I try to never do that to another but the problem is that in the Bible it says that I do believe. However, no one can believe something and not know it. We cannot choose to believe or not to believe something. We are either convinced by the evidence or we are not.

Exactly. As a believer I pray that you do come to a place of believing, because I believe that is the best place to be. I also know that what is evidence of God's existence to us is not to others and we can't argue you over to "our side". All we can do is present the Good News to you and the rest is up to God. I will say that when I began to believe it was accompanied with a "knowing" which is something that cannot be explained and is the result of what Jesus refers to as a new birth, being born from above (born of God). Nicodemus had difficulty understanding this and as far as I know, never did understand because it is nonsense to the human mind. Just remember that not yet does not mean never.

 

[Michael74]

Yes, but he still revealed himself to Moses. Why won't he reveal himself to everyone and let them make up their mind to follow him or not?

He did write you a whole book.

 

[Clizby]

Exactly. As a believer I pray that you do come to a place of believing, because I believe that is the best place to be. I also know that what is evidence of God's existence to us is not to others and we can't argue you over to "our side".

There may be evidence but it is not sufficient for belief. Can your God provide evidence to me that would be sufficient for me to believe?

All we can do is present the Good News to you and the rest is up to God. I will say that when I began to believe it was accompanied with a "knowing" which is something that cannot be explained and is the result of what Jesus refers to as a new birth, being born from above (born of God). Nicodemus had difficulty understanding this and as far as I know, never did understand because it is nonsense to the human mind. Just remember that not yet does not mean never.

I believed for 18 years for bad reasons. I "knew" as well. But that is not the same as a demonstrated truth. Not only will the Christian god need to demonstrate that he exists but that he is moral as well if he wants me to follow him.

 

[Clizby]

He did write you a whole book.

Can you demonstrate that? Or do you take that on faith? Even if that is good evidence, I could not follow that god because of the immoral acts he has done and condones unless he convinces me otherwise.

 

[Boaz]

There may be evidence but it is not sufficient for belief. Can your God provide evidence to me that would be sufficient for me to believe?

I believed for 18 years for bad reasons. I "knew" as well. But that is not the same as a demonstrated truth. Not only will the Christian god need to demonstrate that he exists but that he is moral as well if he wants me to follow him.

It is not sufficient for YOUR belief. God has already supplied all the evidence that is necessary. The belief or faith is not found in your head, it's found in your heart. And if it sin there, it isn't there but it may be someday.
For arguments sake let's just say IF there is a God He certainly isn't beholden to you or anyone else. We are utterly dependant on His mercy. Try asking for that, in all sincerity. IF God exists, you would certainly NEED His mercy.

 

[Clizby]

It is not sufficient for YOUR belief. God has already supplied all the evidence that is necessary.

If this were true I would still be a believer.

The belief or faith is not found in your head, it's found in your heart. And if it sin there, it isn't there but it may be someday.

My heart cannot do anything but pump blood of which I am grateful. The evidence says that we don't have a soul. So what do you mean by finding it in my heart? Are you just saying feelings?

For arguments sake let's just say IF there is a God He certainly isn't beholden to you or anyone else. We are utterly dependant on His mercy. Try asking for that, in all sincerity. IF God exists, you would certainly NEED His mercy.

I did for a long time. He never showed up.

Is it my responsibility?:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. Jn 6:44

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, EPH 2:8

He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, EPH 1:5

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Ro 8:29

It seems it is up to God to draw me to him or save me by his choice. These verse indicate that it is up to god to save me, so I guess I live my life and wait and see. I know there are verses that say the opposite but that is another issue of inerrancy.