[__ Science __ ] Scientific argument for God's existence

[Boaz]

If this were true I would still be a believer.

My heart cannot do anything but pump blood of which I am grateful. The evidence says that we don't have a soul. So what do you mean by finding it in my heart? Are you just saying feelings?


I did for a long time. He never showed up.

Is it my responsibility?:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. Jn 6:44

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, EPH 2:8

He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, EPH 1:5

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Ro 8:29

It seems it is up to God to draw me to him or save me by his choice. These verse indicate that it is up to god to save me, so I guess I live my life and wait and see. I know there are verses that say the opposite but that is another issue of inerrancy.

There is a lot there to answer. First if you were ever truly a believer you would still be a believer according to the verses you quoted , which by the way is how I believe.
Second I am not talking about the physical heart and I am not talking about feelings. I am talking about the innermost being of a person and before you ask "whatever that is", which admittedly is a thing to question, it is the place inside you that KNOWS something is true or right, without needing visible proof. The knowing is its own proof. It is something God PUTS in us.
What evidence is there that we don't have a soul?
Concerning your asking for mercy and not receiving it, you do actually receive mercy from God every time you take a breath, instead of not taking one. But the mercy extended in salvation, or same thing said a different way, in trusting Jesus to save us from the wrath of God, which we all deserve, just let me say about He never showed up that never isn't here yet.
I do not know what you are expecting from God that would be proof to you if His existence. Maybe you could tell me? Specifically?
To be honest it often seems like you have already made your mind up not to believe and are going to make sure you hear no one. Or possibly that you thought it would be fun to harass us.
I suspect from some of your other threads, since you have mentioned prior church attendance and belief, that something, maybe in a church you attended, happens that hurt and/or angered you and turned you away. It could easily happen I'm ashamed to have to admit. The visible church in general in this day and age is a shambles of mix and match, make it up, way out of the boundaries of true New Testament church doctrine and teaching that it's only by the grace of God anyone hears the truth. So if this is the case and you want to share, maybe we can get out of this circular conversation.

 

[Boaz]

There is a lot there to answer. First if you were ever truly a believer you would still be a believer according to the verses you quoted , which by the way is how I believe.
Second I am not talking about the physical heart and I am not talking about feelings. I am talking about the innermost being of a person and before you ask "whatever that is", which admittedly is a thing to question, it is the place inside you that KNOWS something is true or right, without needing visible proof. The knowing is its own proof. It is something God PUTS in us.
What evidence is there that we don't have a soul?
Concerning your asking for mercy and not receiving it, you do actually receive mercy from God every time you take a breath, instead of not taking one. But the mercy extended in salvation, or same thing said a different way, in trusting Jesus to save us from the wrath of God, which we all deserve, just let me say about He never showed up that never isn't here yet.
I do not know what you are expecting from God that would be proof to you if His existence. Maybe you could tell me? Specifically?
To be honest it often seems like you have already made your mind up not to believe and are going to make sure you hear no one. Or possibly that you thought it would be fun to harass us.
I suspect from some of your other threads, since you have mentioned prior church attendance and belief, that something, maybe in a church you attended, happens that hurt and/or angered you and turned you away. It could easily happen I'm ashamed to have to admit. The visible church in general in this day and age is a shambles of mix and match, make it up, way out of the boundaries of true New Testament church doctrine and teaching that it's only by the grace of God anyone hears the truth. So if this is the case and you want to share, maybe we can get out of this circular conversation.

You seem to be fairly familiar with scripture so I'm sure you know the one on John where Jesus says no one comes to the Father except through Me. Maybe that should be your starting place, reading about Jesus in the Gospels to find out who He is? Instead of trying to figure out what is inerrancy, and all the things in the OT you don't believe, and all the things you don't like or approve of about the God of the Bible. Read about Jesus and all the things about Him that are impossible to believe prayerfully, hopefully, and with an open mind to listen instead of one already stubbornly? made up. When you believe what is unbelievable you will know that God has proven His existence to you. But remember it is God's timeline, not yours, and His timeline, and everything leading you along that path is for a reason, and a very good one. Only He knows the reason however in hindsight you may see some of the reasons. So tell this unknown God, ok, show me who Jesus is and try not to insist in Him doing that in the way you choose.

 

[Clizby]

There is a lot there to answer. First if you were ever truly a believer you would still be a believer according to the verses you quoted , which by the way is how I believe.

There is nothing in those verses that preclude god from unsaving me. There are plenty of Christians believe you can lose your salvation. However, I believed because of bad reasons from bad epistemology.

Second I am not talking about the physical heart and I am not talking about feelings. I am talking about the innermost being of a person and before you ask "whatever that is", which admittedly is a thing to question, it is the place inside you that KNOWS something is true or right, without needing visible proof. The knowing is its own proof. It is something God PUTS in us.

Why should I believe this if you cannot demonstrate it to be true?

What evidence is there that we don't have a soul?

When we change our brain state we can change our thoughts, personalities etc. Without the physical brain we have no evidence of any kind of consciousness or soul. I guess we could have a soul but there has never been any demonstration that it does exist.

Concerning your asking for mercy and not receiving it, you do actually receive mercy from God every time you take a breath, instead of not taking one. But the mercy extended in salvation, or same thing said a different way, in trusting Jesus to save us from the wrath of God, which we all deserve, just let me say about He never showed up that never isn't here yet.

Do you as a Christian live your life like god is going to kill you at any moment? Because Ananias and Sapphira were believers that told a lie and god killed them on the spot. If god exists and wants to kill me he can, but maybe a better way is to let people know he exists then at least they have a choice to follow him or be eternally tortured.

I do not know what you are expecting from God that would be proof to you if His existence. Maybe you could tell me? Specifically?

I don't know. Just like I don't know what evidence would convince me that unicorns exist. Just like I didn't know what evidence would convince me that evolution was true until I sought it out. Evidence convinces or it does not, God knows what evidence I would need to believe, I don't

To be honest it often seems like you have already made your mind up not to believe and are going to make sure you hear no one. Or possibly that you thought it would be fun to harass us.

If I were here to harass I would be posting in the other forums such as the prayer or theology forum. Those are for Christians to talk to each other. No one can make up their mind to believe or not believe, we are simply convinced by the evidence or we are not.

I suspect from some of your other threads, since you have mentioned prior church attendance and belief, that something, maybe in a church you attended, happens that hurt and/or angered you and turned you away. It could easily happen I'm ashamed to have to admit. The visible church in general in this day and age is a shambles of mix and match, make it up, way out of the boundaries of true New Testament church doctrine and teaching that it's only by the grace of God anyone hears the truth. So if this is the case and you want to share, maybe we can get out of this circular conversation.

There is nothing other than my effort to be the best Christian I could be by studying the scriptures. Once I studied earnestly I discovered I have no basis for belief and could not demonstrate any of it. Nothing bad happened to me I just decided to really study. A lot of atheists come to unbelief this way.

 

[Clizby]

You seem to be fairly familiar with scripture so I'm sure you know the one on John where Jesus says no one comes to the Father except through Me. Maybe that should be your starting place, reading about Jesus in the Gospels to find out who He is? Instead of trying to figure out what is inerrancy, and all the things in the OT you don't believe, and all the things you don't like or approve of about the God of the Bible. Read about Jesus and all the things about Him that are impossible to believe prayerfully, hopefully, and with an open mind to listen instead of one already stubbornly? made up.

I did this for many years. But the problem is that you want me to believe things without sufficient evidence. Why should I do that? Shouldn't we have good reasons for belief of anything? Should I believe on faith that I can fly and jump off a building without having sufficient evidence that I can actually fly first?

When you believe what is unbelievable you will know that God has proven His existence to you.

How would that prove a god exists? I don't think it is possible to really believe something that is unbelievable, seems contradictory.

But remember it is God's timeline, not yours, and His timeline, and everything leading you along that path is for a reason, and a very good one. Only He knows the reason however in hindsight you may see some of the reasons. So tell this unknown God, ok, show me who Jesus is and try not to insist in Him doing that in the way you choose.

I did this. Why can't god just show himself to everyone so that they would know he exists and cut out all the mystery and misinformation?

 

[Boaz]

There is nothing in those verses that preclude god from unsaving me. There are plenty of Christians believe you can lose your salvation. However, I believed because of bad reasons from bad epistemology.

Why should I believe this if you cannot demonstrate it to be true?

When we change our brain state we can change our thoughts, personalities etc. Without the physical brain we have no evidence of any kind of consciousness or soul. I guess we could have a soul but there has never been any demonstration that it does exist.

Do you as a Christian live your life like god is going to kill you at any moment? Because Ananias and Sapphira were believers that told a lie and god killed them on the spot. If god exists and wants to kill me he can, but maybe a better way is to let people know he exists then at least they have a choice to follow him or be eternally tortured.

I don't know. Just like I don't know what evidence would convince me that unicorns exist. Just like I didn't know what evidence would convince me that evolution was true until I sought it out. Evidence convinces or it does not, God knows what evidence I would need to believe, I don't

If I were here to harass I would be posting in the other forums such as the prayer or theology forum. Those are for Christians to talk to each other. No one can make up their mind to believe or not believe, we are simply convinced by the evidence or we are not.

There is nothing other than my effort to be the best Christian I could be by studying the scriptures. Once I studied earnestly I discovered I have no basis for belief and could not demonstrate any of it. Nothing bad happened to me I just decided to really study. A lot of atheists come to unbelief this way.

 

[Boaz]

There is nothing in those verses that preclude god from unsaving me. There are plenty of Christians believe you can lose your salvation. However, I believed because of bad reasons from bad epistemology.

Why should I believe this if you cannot demonstrate it to be true?

When we change our brain state we can change our thoughts, personalities etc. Without the physical brain we have no evidence of any kind of consciousness or soul. I guess we could have a soul but there has never been any demonstration that it does exist.

Do you as a Christian live your life like god is going to kill you at any moment? Because Ananias and Sapphira were believers that told a lie and god killed them on the spot. If god exists and wants to kill me he can, but maybe a better way is to let people know he exists then at least they have a choice to follow him or be eternally tortured.

I don't know. Just like I don't know what evidence would convince me that unicorns exist. Just like I didn't know what evidence would convince me that evolution was true until I sought it out. Evidence convinces or it does not, God knows what evidence I would need to believe, I don't

If I were here to harass I would be posting in the other forums such as the prayer or theology forum. Those are for Christians to talk to each other. No one can make up their mind to believe or not believe, we are simply convinced by the evidence or we are not.

There is nothing other than my effort to be the best Christian I could be by studying the scriptures. Once I studied earnestly I discovered I have no basis for belief and could not demonstrate any of it. Nothing bad happened to me I just decided to really study. A lot of atheists come to unbelief this way.

OK. Whatever. Still a circular conversation. I'm done. Hope you find what you are looking for.

 

[Clizby]

OK. Whatever. Still a circular conversation. I'm done. Hope you find what you are looking for.

I don't know how it is circular. All I am looking for is sufficient evidence to believe that a God exists.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

To Clizby, and everyone else in the discussion about proving that God exists with Clizby.

I hust had a thought. Clizby is searching for answers just by being here and asking the questions he is asking.

This would be a tangent away from the topic of scientific arguments for God's existance, but for the sake of helping Clizby find God, maybe it might be good to take off the science goggles and put on a detective hat. The difference is that detectives look for evidance and follow leads more then the field of science does.

We can do do that much at least for Clizby. Tell him how each of us knows God is real, or how we discovered He is real. Each story can be counted as a possible lead for Clizby. Not a smoking gun for proof, but a lead none the less for him to consider.

 

[Boaz]

I don't know how it is circular. All I am looking for is sufficient evidence to believe that a God exists.

All I can say is keep looking. I have done all I know how to do. I can't make God appear to you. I can't give you evidence you will accept and I am very sorry about that. It is in God's hands.

 

[Clizby]

All I can say is keep looking. I have done all I know how to do. I can't make God appear to you. I can't give you evidence you will accept and I am very sorry about that. It is in God's hands.

Fair enough. Thanks for the conversation.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

To Clizby.

I've just finished writting out the examples I was going to give from my experiences. I just wanted to ask before posting them or sending them as a PM to you, just to ask whether or not you wanted them.

I know these won't be proof for you because you want to see for yourself, but if you want them anyways they could be a lead for how God has answered some prayers and be a direction for you to keep in mind. Not to have tunnel vision with regard to finding God. Let me know if you want me to post them or not to you.

 

[Boaz]

Fair enough. Thanks for the conversation.

You are welcome and I have enjoyed it. Feel free to contact me again if you so desire.

 

[Michael74]

...I could not follow that god because of the immoral acts he has done and condones...

Wow Clizby. What prompts you to make such an unjust accusation?

 

[Clizby]

Wow Clizby. What prompts you to make such an unjust accusation?

Without reason?

When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money. Ex:21:20-21.

Let all who are under a yoke as bondservants regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved. 1 Tim 6:1-2

If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days. Deut 22:28-29

And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.” Job 2:3

Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. Hosea 13:16

But if in spite of this you will not listen to me, but walk contrary to me, then I will walk contrary to you in fury, and I myself will discipline you sevenfold for your sins. You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.

O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed, blessed shall he be who repays you with what you have done to us! Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock! Psalm 137:8-9.

And she said, “Yes, for so much.” But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. Acts 5:8-10. (God kills two people for lying to him.)

And there is more. Would you condone any of these things? I bet you would not. So if god showed me he existed he would also have to show me that these actions are moral if he wants me to follow him.

 

[Michael74]

Without reason?

I don't know all of the answers Clizby, but I do believe that God intends things for good.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28 KJV

Let's consider one of the passages you cited. First, it may not mean what you think it means. I am thinking that you are assuming rape is being talked about in these verses. However, translators are not in agreement on this. Here is how one modern translation puts it:

Suppose a woman isn’t engaged to be married, and a man talks her into sleeping with him. If they are caught, they will be forced to get married. He must give her father fifty pieces of silver as a bride-price and can never divorce her. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 Contemporary English Version

The Hebrew phrase (לֹא־ אֹרָ֔שָׂה וּתְפָשָׂ֖הּ וְשָׁכַ֣ב עִמָּ֑הּ ) can mean more than one thing.

Here's how the King James puts it:

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 King James Version

Consider the words "and they be found". This suggests that the woman involved will not automatically tell what happened. Why? Consider also that in previous verses, a completely different word was used to denote rape. This also suggests something different than rape is being talked about in 28-29.

Here is one apologetics web site's thoughts on the verses.

There are also significant differences between today and back then that would affect how this scenario plays out. It would affect people far differently today, because the culture and job market have changed.

 

[Michael74]

Some of the differences between then and now.

1) Attitudes toward virgins. Back then, a non virgin female was generally considered un-marriageable. Its not like today were non virgins can easily find a spouse. Back then most marriages were arranged by parents, who would be scandalized at the thought of their sons marrying a non virgin.

2) Modern birth control didn't exist. A non virgin would almost certainly become a single mother.

3) Back then, jobs mostly consisted of hard physical labor. Most women couldn't do do jobs that paid enough to support a family (mostly farming jobs). Its not like today where a woman can become a doctor or lawyer, and make megabucks.

So here is the scenario. A single mother unable to support her child. They both starve.

The man in this situation was commanded to support the woman and her child forever. In addition, he had to pay the bride price to her father. The bride price was supposed to be used by her father to support his daughter, should something happen to her husband. Her oldest brother used the bride price to support her if something happened to her father (the reason first born sons received a double portion).

The primary effect of this command was to prevent men from making virgins non virgins in the first place. They knew that they would have to support that woman forever. They generally stayed away from other people's virgin daughters in the first place, thus protecting them.

4) People tended to become engaged younger back then. Parents arranged for a future marriage, and their children were later married at the appropriate time. A non betrothed virgin would most likely be very young.

Consider that the net result of all this, in light of the situation in olden times, would be to protect people's young daughters. As a general rule, no one would dare touch them. Not even the other young males their own age. A good thing.

 

[Clizby]

I don't know all of the answers Clizby, but I do believe that God intends things for good.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28 KJV

This promise is only for Christians though. Dashing heathen babies into rocks seems to be OK for God I guess since they are not Christians?

Let's consider one of the passages you cited. First, it may not mean what you think it means. I am thinking that you are assuming rape is being talked about in these verses. However, translators are not in agreement on this. Here is how one modern translation puts it:

Suppose a woman isn’t engaged to be married, and a man talks her into sleeping with him. If they are caught, they will be forced to get married. He must give her father fifty pieces of silver as a bride-price and can never divorce her. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 Contemporary English Version

The Hebrew phrase (לֹא־ אֹרָ֔שָׂה וּתְפָשָׂ֖הּ וְשָׁכַ֣ב עִמָּ֑הּ ) can mean more than one thing.

Here's how the King James puts it:

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 King James Version

Consider the words "and they be found". This suggests that the woman involved will not automatically tell what happened. Why? Consider also that in previous verses, a completely different word was used to denote rape. This also suggests something different than rape is being talked about in 28-29.

Here is one apologetics web site's thoughts on the verses.

There are also significant differences between today and back then that would affect how this scenario plays out. It would affect people far differently today, because the culture and job market have changed.

So are you saying that you are OK with forcing a woman to marry a man even when sex was consensual? This is still immoral. The woman should have a choice in who she marries and how she wants to live her future. Right?

 

[Clizby]

Some of the differences between then and now.

1) Attitudes toward virgins. Back then, a non virgin female was generally considered un-marriageable. Its not like today were non virgins can easily find a spouse. Back then most marriages were arranged by parents, who would be scandalized at the thought of their sons marrying a non virgin.

And God never addressed this immoral attitude. He actually condones it when he has a price for a virgin has sex with man but not a non virgin. See above post.

2) Modern birth control didn't exist. A non virgin would almost certainly become a single mother.

Ok, but it should still be her decision if she wants to marry or be a single mother.

3) Back then, jobs mostly consisted of hard physical labor. Most women couldn't do do jobs that paid enough to support a family (mostly farming jobs). Its not like today where a woman can become a doctor or lawyer, and make megabucks.

Ok, but it should still be her decision if she wants to marry and try to make her way. Also God never addresses this issue of inequality.

So here is the scenario. A single mother unable to support her child. They both starve.

The man in this situation was commanded to support the woman and her child forever. In addition, he had to pay the bride price to her father. The bride price was supposed to be used by her father to support his daughter, should something happen to her husband. Her oldest brother used the bride price to support her if something happened to her father (the reason first born sons received a double portion).

The primary effect of this command was to prevent men from making virgins non virgins in the first place. They knew that they would have to support that woman forever. They generally stayed away from other people's virgin daughters in the first place, thus protecting them.

The passage says nothing of a child. It just says that if he rapes or has consensual sex with her the woman must marry him. Not all sex results in a baby. This also is making non virgin women lower that a virgin. This is also immoral and stigmatizes a woman just for having sex.

4) People tended to become engaged younger back then. Parents arranged for a future marriage, and their children were later married at the appropriate time. A non betrothed virgin would most likely be very young.

Consider that the net result of all this, in light of the situation in olden times, would be to protect people's young daughters. As a general rule, no one would dare touch them. Not even the other young males their own age. A good thing.

And the woman has no say in anything. Who she marries or why. She should be able to make her own decisions for her future. God does not allow for this. This is my objection.

 

[Michael74]

...stigmatizes a woman just for having sex.

First, so we are on the same page, the New Testament does not exempt men when it commands:

Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Corinthians 6:18-19 KJV

No funny business outside of marriage for anyone. Period. No exceptions.

 

[Clizby]

First, so we are on the same page, the New Testament does not exempt men when it commands:

Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Corinthians 6:18-19 KJV

No funny business outside of marriage for anyone. Period. No exceptions.

That's great but where was this 3000 years ago? Also, restricting sex between only married couples harms non married single people. The moral stance should be that sex should be between consensual adults period. It is an issue of consent and privacy.