[__ Science __ ] Scientific argument for God's existence

[Michael74]

That's great but where was this 3000 years ago?

He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. Matthew 19:8 NKJV

People were not ready for everything 3000 years ago. They needed extra preparation, and help to get them there.

It is an issue of consent and privacy.

No, its not.

... ye are not your own... 1 Corinthians 6:19b NKJV

There is no privacy. The Lord is with us always. We are never alone. Our bodies don't belong to us. They belong to the Lord.

 

[Clizby]

He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. Matthew 19:8 NKJV

People were not ready for everything 3000 years ago. They needed extra preparation, and help to get them there.

Do you not think that women could make their own decision whether to get married back then? Do you think it is ever someone else's decision when a person should get married?

No, its not.

... ye are not your own... 1 Corinthians 6:19b NKJV

There is no privacy. The Lord is with us always. We are never alone. Our bodies don't belong to us. They belong to the Lord.

Demonstrate that God exists and then these verses may carry some weight. Otherwise reasoned morality comes up with the most moral positions.

 

[Boaz]

That's great but where was this 3000 years ago? Also, restricting sex between only married couples harms non married single people. The moral stance should be that sex should be between consensual adults period. It is an issue of consent and privacy.

You are confusing our culture with ancient cultures. There is an absolute morality which comes from God, and He is never arbitrary but are based on His character of HOLINESS, PERFECTION. If He exists He is the creator. We, as His created by Him creatures don't get to negotiate the terms. Our responsibility is to correctly interpret the instructions He gives us which are ALWAYS for our good and our protection from our own tendencies, our desire to do what feels good and right at the moment, answering to no one. And Jesus Himself said it isn't the letter of the law but ALSO the spirit of the law. He said this to the Pharisees after calling them hypocrites. To say that the moral stance SHOULD be what you decide it should be or this spiraling downward culture says it SHOULD be has zero validity. It is actually kind of a dumb remark and I know you are smarter that. No unkindness intended. "God is the same yesterday, today and forever." He does fluctuate or bend to accommodate our rebellion.

 

[Michael74]

Otherwise reasoned morality comes up with the most moral positions.

So demonstrate how fornication helps people. I have talked with men who told me they treated many women shabbily. Serial fornication does not seem to be such a good deal for all involved.

In any case, this world is only preparation for the next one. That's where we will spend eternity.

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. Matthew 22:30 KJV

If you want to understand the God of the Bible, it is important to keep this in mind. He is thinking of the long run. What is best for His children throughout the endless ages to come.

 

[Clizby]

You are confusing our culture with ancient cultures. There is an absolute morality which comes from God, and He is never arbitrary but are based on His character of HOLINESS, PERFECTION.

I disagree that blessing people that dash babies against rocks, force people to eat their children and destroy a persons life without reason is Holy Perfection.

If He exists He is the creator. We, as His created by Him creatures don't get to negotiate the terms. Our responsibility is to correctly interpret the instructions He gives us which are ALWAYS for our good and our protection from our own tendencies, our desire to do what feels good and right at the moment, answering to no one.

Secular morality is not about doing what you feel like or doing what is right in the moment. Many people do operate this way but my morality and the morality of many atheists are derived from a goal of maximum well being. Our actions are compared to that goal to determine how to proceed or act using reason. I believe this is a better morality than what Christians offer. Christians cannot agree on morality just like secularists cannot. Do you believe any of the actions God did that I listed above are moral?

And Jesus Himself said it isn't the letter of the law but ALSO the spirit of the law. He said this to the Pharisees after calling them hypocrites.

Is it right to call a person that got angry at another a murderer? This is what Jesus said.

To say that the moral stance SHOULD be what you decide it should be or this spiraling downward culture says it SHOULD be has zero validity. It is actually kind of a dumb remark and I know you are smarter that. No unkindness intended.

Why not? Morals are not absolute, even God's morals, they are just what he thinks they should be. Do your morals really come from the Bible? Would you tell a slave to be the best slave they can be because God says so or that slaves are another persons property?

"God is the same yesterday, today and forever." He does fluctuate or bend to accommodate our rebellion.

This is the scary part. If he is the same as in the OT then he has a lot to answer for. Reference my list of bible verses above.

 

[Boaz]

Do you not think that women could make their own decision whether to get married back then? Do you think it is ever someone else's decision when a person should get married?



Demonstrate that God exists and then these verses may carry some weight. Otherwise reasoned morality comes up with the most moral positions.

I agree with you that nothing in Scripture carries one iota of weight (To you) if you don't believe that God exists which you won't believe unless someone here or somewhere PROVES His existence. Which won't happen. You may come to believe, and by all means keep asking questions, but NO ONE can actually PROVE that God exists. He is by His very being unprovable and certainly evidence of His existence, the evidence given in this thread is not sufficient for you, since you have some unnamable something you require as proof. He chose to SHOW man that He existed and He told us a lot about Himself, all that we need, but He did not reveal EVERYTHING about Himself. For His own purposes but one of them we can be assured of is that our finite minds would probably disintegrate if He did. The finite cannot comprehend the infinite. Impossible. It of necessity requires FAITH. Believing what we cannot see. And pardon my bluntness, but it seems you are determined not to believe.
Yet you say you have proof of evolution. You do not because there is no proof. It's a theory backed up by apotheosis that no one can prove. Have you merely CHOSEN to put your FAITH there? Think it through carefully.

 

[Boaz]

I disagree that blessing people that dash babies against rocks, force people to eat their children and destroy a persons life without reason is Holy Perfection.

Secular morality is not about doing what you feel like or doing what is right in the moment. Many people do operate this way but my morality and the morality of many atheists are derived from a goal of maximum well being. Our actions are compared to that goal to determine how to proceed or act using reason. I believe this is a better morality than what Christians offer. Christians cannot agree on morality just like secularists cannot. Do you believe any of the actions God did that I listed above are moral?

Is it right to call a person that got angry at another a murderer? This is what Jesus said.

Why not? Morals are not absolute, even God's morals, they are just what he thinks they should be. Do your morals really come from the Bible? Would you tell a slave to be the best slave they can be because God says so or that slaves are another persons property?

This is the scary part. If he is the same as in the OT then he has a lot to answer for. Reference my list of bible verses above.

Gosh darn I guess we would all be better off if you were God. Just think, we could all be nihilistic, answer to no one but ourselves, do only what makes us feel good. Plus we would be able to prove you exist!!!

 

[Boaz]

Gosh darn I guess we would all be better off if you were God. Just think, we could all be nihilistic, answer to no one but ourselves, do only what makes us feel good. Plus we would be able to prove you exist!!!

You aren't really listening or considering anything we say, that is obvious, you are only refuting it with what your consider your superior intelligence. THINK again. I have gone back to what I suspected long ago but gave you the benefit of the doubt but----- you are just yanking or chain. All these people have been sincerely and in love trying to help you, trusted that, you were sincerely asking. But somebody finally had to say it. Yanking our chain. I do not speak for anyone else, only myself.

 

[Boaz]

i think that is why scripture says the fool says in his heart there is no God - it's pure foolishness that comes out of the hearts and mouths of people who do not believe there is a God - they think they are so wise but they really are so blind - i liked your posts though - you and Michael74 make really good points - thank you to you both

Thank you

 

[Clizby]

So demonstrate how fornication helps people.

Is it moral to tell people they cannot do something, anything, if they consent to it and it harms no one? Why should you get to tell another adult that they cannot have sex unless they are married?

I have talked with men who told me they treated many women shabbily. Serial fornication does not seem to be such a good deal for all involved.

Treating women badly is well bad and immoral. I agree that sex is better for people when a loving intimate relationship is involved. We can teach people about the emotional realities of sex and let them use that information to make t heir own decisions.

In any case, this world is only preparation for the next one. That's where we will spend eternity.

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. Matthew 22:30 KJV

If you want to understand the God of the Bible, it is important to keep this in mind. He is thinking of the long run. What is best for His children throughout the endless ages to come.

This is why many Christians don't care about the environment or politics to try to make our societies better. They have their eye on the afterlife.

 

[Clizby]

I agree with you that nothing in Scripture carries one iota of weight (To you) if you don't believe that God exists which you won't believe unless someone here or somewhere PROVES His existence. Which won't happen.

I don't require proof but sufficient evidence to warrant belief.

You may come to believe, and by all means keep asking questions, but NO ONE can actually PROVE that God exists. He is by His very being unprovable and certainly evidence of His existence, the evidence given in this thread is not sufficient for you, since you have some unnamable something you require as proof.

How do I know the difference between a god that cannot be demonstrated to exist and a god that does not exist?

I already explained that we cannot know what will convince us of anything. God knows and he can provide it if he wishes.

He chose to SHOW man that He existed and He told us a lot about Himself, all that we need, but He did not reveal EVERYTHING about Himself. For His own purposes but one of them we can be assured of is that our finite minds would probably disintegrate if He did. The finite cannot comprehend the infinite. Impossible.

I don't need to comprehend something to know it exists. I don't know everything about how a volcano works but I know they exist.

It of necessity requires FAITH. Believing what we cannot see. And pardon my bluntness, but it seems you are determined not to believe.

Untrue. I want to believe what is true and not what is untrue. You can believe anything on faith. That does not get us to truth. Muslims. Mormons etc. believe what they believe on faith as well and all three cannot be true. How do I tell the difference?

Yet you say you have proof of evolution. You do not because there is no proof.

I never said proof I don;t think. I said thre is overwhelming evidence that it is true.

It's a theory backed up by apotheosis that no one can prove. Have you merely CHOSEN to put your FAITH there? Think it through carefully.

No. I studied that actual evidence and concluded that it is overwhelming. Evolution can be demonstrated to be true if you want to study it. Do you know why scientists believe evolution happened? Have you ever studied it from actual scientists?

 

[Boaz]

your post reminded me of how Jesus says people refuse to come into the light because they like to sin - John 3:19-20

God's morality is far superior to man's even if man doesn't think so

the thing about dashing infants in the rocks - sounds an awful lot like ripping babies apart limb from limb in the womb - o wait - it's the woman's choice so that makes it moral - wow - the wisdom of man

Exactly. And no one can define morality but God. It is His creation.

 

[Michael74]

...if they consent to it and it harms no one?

The millions of single mothers frantically trying to raise their children by themselves, while holding down a job, might disagree that no one is harmed. The millions of men dwelling alone who have a substantial fraction of their pay sent to a woman they don't even like might also disagree. Those who have caught penicillin resistant venereal diseases and AIDS might disagree. Millions of emotionally scarred youngsters who have been hurt so badly that they can no longer allow themselves to love might disagree.

You have not proven that serial fornication is better for people. Millions have been harmed.

I agree that sex is better for people when a loving intimate relationship is involved.

Okay, we agree on this.

We can teach people about the emotional realities of sex and let them use that information to make t heir own decisions.

I hope you don't mean jr high school sex ed classes. Those don't teach anything of the sort.

Youngsters having sex with each other at 13 don't have any idea what they are doing to themselves or each other.

God is trying to help people with His rules. He knows human nature very well.

 

[Clizby]

Gosh darn I guess we would all be better off if you were God. Just think, we could all be nihilistic

I am not nihilistic, I get to decide what is meaningful in my life. Please don't represent me.

answer to no one but ourselves

Untrue, With my moral system I answer to everyone, do whats best for everyone's well being as best I can. Do you not think that I care about others? My wife , kids , friends etc.?

do only what makes us feel good.

Untrue. I reason my morals and actions for the best of everyone involved. Please don't represent me.

You seem to have a stereotype of an atheist that is mostly untrue and definitely untrue of me.

 

[Clizby]

the thing about dashing infants in the rocks - sounds an awful lot like ripping babies apart limb from limb in the womb - o wait - it's the woman's choice so that makes it moral - wow - the wisdom of man

It is in your book that God orders the killing of babies. Abortion is immoral as well. I am against both are you against dashing babies against rocks if god orders it?

 

[Edward]

It is in your book that God orders the killing of babies. Abortion is immoral as well. I am against both are you against dashing babies against rocks if god orders it?

Yeah but that was a gene pool problem is why God did that. Genesis 6 brought that on...

 

[Edward]

I just happened across this video last night, and it is all about the topic of this thread. It's really good and kind of humorous here and there so is a good watch...

 

[Edward]

God does not tell anyone to kill infants in any manner

He did. It is in 1 Samual 15:3
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.../

And most people can't understand why and it did read weird at first. But mankinds blood lines and DNA had been corrupted and those were who they were to be wiped out. No hybrids are redeemable. No Nephilim.

 

[Boaz]

I don't require proof but sufficient evidence to warrant belief.

How do I know the difference between a god that cannot be demonstrated to exist and a god that does not exist?

I already explained that we cannot know what will convince us of anything. God knows and he can provide it if he wishes.

I don't need to comprehend something to know it exists. I don't know everything about how a volcano works but I know they exist.

Untrue. I want to believe what is true and not what is untrue. You can believe anything on faith. That does not get us to truth. Muslims. Mormons etc. believe what they believe on faith as well and all three cannot be true. How do I tell the difference?

I never said proof I don;t think. I said thre is overwhelming evidence that it is true.

No. I studied that actual evidence and concluded that it is overwhelming. Evolution can be demonstrated to be true if you want to study it. Do you know why scientists believe evolution happened? Have you ever studied it from actual scientists?

Still you chose to put your faith in evolution, as you said you can put your faith anywhere. The type of faith that believes in God is not the same type of faith. It is bigger and deeper than that and isn't blind and if it is ever given to you you will know what I am talking about, until then, you won't.
I don't need to study evolution to decide whether it's true or not, I know it isn't. Of course I did learn about it in school and I didn't believe it then even though I also was not a Christian then. You say evolution has been demonstrated to be true. That is a false statement. If anything the opposite is true. Even much of the scientific community has refuted it. What honesty would say is that it demonstrated enough validity to satisfy you. Or in other words you kind of liked that explanation. What science often does when they're about to be proven wrong is just add a few billion years to the equation."Prove my theory wrong now!!" they yell.
Can you prove God doesn't exist? And before we go way back to where you claimed you weren't saying He doesn't exist only that you don't believe He exists. He may or may not exist. That would be an agnostc. Yet a few posts ago you referred to your "fellow atheists." Yanking our chain.

 

[Clizby]

You aren't really listening or considering anything we say, that is obvious, you are only refuting it with what your consider your superior intelligence.

What? I am responding to everything said to me and that is not what others here are doing. Many of my points have been ignored, I have addressed all of your points. I am listening to what you say I just disagree with it. If your god is real then you don't have to worry about any of my questions.

Please don't say that I think I am more intelligent, I never said that. Why do you constantly misrepresent me?

THINK again. I have gone back to what I suspected long ago but gave you the benefit of the doubt but----- you are just yanking or chain. All these people have been sincerely and in love trying to help you, trusted that, you were sincerely asking. But somebody finally had to say it. Yanking our chain. I do not speak for anyone else, only myself.

Well ok then. It seems you think that I should just accept whatever you or anyone says because they love me? That is bad epistemology. I want to know what is true and what is not true, that is my goal. It is not a game or yanking anyone's chain. do you care what is true?