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[_ Old Earth _] Scientists refute evolution, Non-creationist scientists

Macroevolution needs a great leap-of-faith to believe in.

It says that your great-great-great-...... granddad (and grandma) were amebas! :o :o or that bit of moss on your shower door!

There is no real indication that one form of life transforms into a completely different form.
 
Gary_Bee said:
Macroevolution needs a great leap-of-faith to believe in.

Going by your examples of what you think evolution is, I'd say it does take a great leap of faith. However, this is not what evolution is.


It says that your great-great-great-...... granddad (and grandma) were amebas! :o :o or that bit of moss on your shower door!

.... :roll: This childish incredulity is really getting sore. You people need to know what evolution is before you try and refute it.

There is no real indication that one form of life transforms into a completely different form.


Genetics is an indication. In genetics, there is also indications that we and other apes share a common ancestor, it's backed up by genetics.
 
Gary_Bee said:
Macroevolution needs a great leap-of-faith to believe in.

It says that your great-great-great-...... granddad (and grandma) were amebas! :o :o or that bit of moss on your shower door!

There is no real indication that one form of life transforms into a completely different form.

:P Great Job Gary_Bee! Thats pure logic!
 
Quath said:
blueeyeliner said:
8-) This website is chock full of great and wonderful information.
http://www.soulcare.org/Creation/Evolution.html
Here is a quick way to understand evolution. You can watch evolution by eye with things that reproduce quickly like bacteria and viruses. Creationists tend to call this microevolution and say they believe in it. So do you also believe in "microevolution"?

Macroevolution is what Creationists tend to disbelieve. However, with the data from microevolution, you can show macroevolution with the assumption that you have more time (billions of years).

Quath

:angel: Our bodies try to fight off bacteria that causes sicknesses,and
those kinds of bacteria do not help human life at all.
I tend not to believe in anything like that in the sense that what they call
these things,I call them something else.
The Bible does a great job at explaining how we were made.
We are wonderfully and fearfully made,amen.
 
The Tuatha'an/



Genetics is an indication. In genetics, there is also indications that we and other apes share a common ancestor, it's backed up by genetics.[/quote]

:roll: This is what evolution is folks,only genetics does not and cannot
back up such ridiculous claims.
 
What do genetics and DNA show?

The Evidence of the Genetic Code

Creationists reason that there are real limitations to evolutionary change that are built into the genetic code of every living being. Changes within this structure indicates design for each major category of life form. Each new life form came into being by an act of intelligent intervention that arranged genetic information to fit functions. Just as letter sequences vary to form different words, DNA patterns vary to produce different species.

If it requires intelligence to create King Lear from a selection of the words found in a dictionary, then it also requires intelligence to select and sort genetic information to produce the variety of species which work together as a system in nature.

The sudden appearance of these life forms strengthens the case that a supernatural intelligence was at work to accomplish this organization. In accordance with the principle of uniformity, this is the most plausible solution to the problem.

So, the greatest problem for evolutionists is not “missing links,†but an explanation for the origin of complex new systems of genetic information.

Geisler, N. L. (1999). Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics. Baker reference library (Page 227). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.
 
A high degree of similarity of genetic information in an ape and a human means absolutely nothing

Macro-evolutionary changes demand large-scale changes from one type of organism to another. Evolutionists argue that this occurred gradually over a long period. One serious objection to this view is that all functional changes from one system to another must be simultaneous (see Denton, 11). For example, one can make small changes in a car gradually over a period of time without changing its basic type. One can change the shape of the fenders, it color, and its trim gradually. But if a change is in the size of the piston, this will involve simultaneous changes in the cam shaft, block, and cooling system. Otherwise the new engine will not function.

To make this point in terms of the genetic code, one cannot go from small gradual changes in a simple genetic code to a more complex DNA molecule without major simultaneous changes, particularly not by random mutations. Small, random changes to “Mary had a little lamb. . .†will never produce King Lear, even if all the letters of the alphabet and punctuation are present. The first small random change might read, “Mary sad a little lamb.†The next, “Mary sad a litter lamb.†And the next, “Mary sad a litter lgmb.†With each single change the message gets more garbled. It is a long way from King Lear and going in the wrong direction. Only an intelligent being can reform the same letters of the English language into King Learâ€â€by simultaneous and systematic redevelopment.

The English alphabet has twenty-six letters; the genetic alphabet has only four, but the method of communicating by sequence of letters is the same. Information scientist Hubert P. Yockey insists, “It is important to understand that we are not reasoning by analogy. The sequence hypothesis applies directly to the protein and the genetic text as well as to written language and therefore the treatment is mathematically identical†(Yockey, 16). It turns out that a single strand of DNA carries the same amount of information as one volume of an encyclopedia.

Each new form of life has its own, unique code that, although it is similar in the letters used, differs vastly in the message conveyed. One can use the very same words and convey an entirely different message. Hence, the evolutionist argument from the high similarity of the words in an ape and a human being do not prove common ancestry. The two sentences “You do love me†and “Do you love me?†have the same words but convey a totally different message. With ingenuity one could construct a paragraph (or even a whole book) in which exactly the same sentences which conveyed a completely different message. A very rudimentary example might go something like this:
John came before Mary. Mary came after John [= later than]. So John and Mary came together [= at the same place].
Compare this with the same sentences in a different order which convey a different meaning:
Mary came after [= pursued] John. John came before Mary [= in her presence]. So John and Mary came together [= in a personal relationship].

A high degree of similarity of genetic information in an ape and a human means absolutely nothing. A high degree of similarity of genetic information in an ape and a human means absolutely nothing. It is the way the pieces are put together that makes a world of difference. Hear this evolutionist’s testimony: “When we get down to the business of trying to establish an evolutionary series of sequences, we cannot find the linear, primitive-to-advanced arrangement we had expected.†In fact, “instead of a progression of increasing divergence, each vertebrate sequence is equally isolated [e.g.] from the cytochrome sequence for the dogfish.†Thus, “in this and countless other comparisons, it has proved impossible to arrange protein sequences in a macro-evolutionary series corresponding to the expected transitions from fish > amphibian > reptile > mammal†(Thaxton, 139–40).

Geisler, N. L. (1999). Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics. Baker reference library (Page 227). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.
 
blueeyeliner said:
Our bodies try to fight off bacteria that causes sicknesses,and those kinds of bacteria do not help human life at all. I tend not to believe in anything like that in the sense that what they call
these things,I call them something else.
I have no idea why you said these things or what point you were trying to make.

Quath
 
Gary_Bee said:
A high degree of similarity of genetic information in an ape and a human means absolutely nothing

Macro-evolutionary changes demand large-scale changes from one type of organism to another. Evolutionists argue that this occurred gradually over a long period. One serious objection to this view is that all functional changes from one system to another must be simultaneous (see Denton, 11). For example, one can make small changes in a car gradually over a period of time without changing its basic type. One can change the shape of the fenders, it color, and its trim gradually. But if a change is in the size of the piston, this will involve simultaneous changes in the cam shaft, block, and cooling system. Otherwise the new engine will not function.
Bollocks
Hurrah, Gary, you've stumbled onto the useless analogy. All the organs and functions of most mammals are very very closely related. Pig hearts work in humans. But pigs are split from humans by several hundred millenia if not several million years. And since genetic variety exists amongst populations in degrees that won't result in death, if it does in some animal, it won't continue to exist for long. Certain changes within all of these systems take place to accomodate the environment that a population exists in. A population of brown rabbits will grow more white, with time, not black, if placed in an arctic environment, given that they can survive there in the first place.
And since speciation has been shown to occur naturally, your argument falls into the morass of being a wasted paragraph.
To make this point in terms of the genetic code, one cannot go from small gradual changes in a simple genetic code to a more complex DNA molecule without major simultaneous changes, particularly not by random mutations. Small, random changes to “Mary had a little lamb. . .†will never produce King Lear, even if all the letters of the alphabet and punctuation are present. The first small random change might read, “Mary sad a little lamb.†The next, “Mary sad a litter lamb.†And the next, “Mary sad a litter lgmb.†With each single change the message gets more garbled. It is a long way from King Lear and going in the wrong direction. Only an intelligent being can reform the same letters of the English language into King Learâ€â€by simultaneous and systematic redevelopment.
strawman.jpg

You still don't understand the theory of natural selection. Go read talk origins.
<attempt to establish superhigh probability fallacy>

Each new form of life has its own, unique code that, although it is similar in the letters used, differs vastly in the message conveyed. One can use the very same words and convey an entirely different message. Hence, the evolutionist argument from the high similarity of the words in an ape and a human being do not prove common ancestry. The two sentences “You do love me†and “Do you love me?†have the same words but convey a totally different message. With ingenuity one could construct a paragraph (or even a whole book) in which exactly the same sentences which conveyed a completely different message. A very rudimentary example might go something like this:
[quote:0fb65]John came before Mary. Mary came after John [= later than]. So John and Mary came together [= at the same place].
[/quote:0fb65]
And here you misunderstand genetics. 98% of human and chimpanzee DNA is identical, this means that not only are the same WORDs involved, the same SENTENCEs and meaning are involved. The message that is conveyed by our DNA is 98% identical to that conveyed by chimpanzees. You'll notice the resembence. The differences stand out, but then it certainly would stand out if someone gave Anna Karenina a different ending. Though a more complete analogy is that, when writting Anna Karenina, Doestchevski wrote two different endings, one where she dies and everyone's sad and the other where she lives and stays in Italy with her lover.

I would refute more, but I need sleep.
 
Quath said:
blueeyeliner said:
Our bodies try to fight off bacteria that causes sicknesses,and those kinds of bacteria do not help human life at all. I tend not to believe in anything like that in the sense that what they call
these things,I call them something else.
I have no idea why you said these things or what point you were trying to make.

Quath

8-) What did you mean when you so lamely tried to use bacteria as
evidence for evolution?

http://www.ex-atheist.com
 
Quath said:
blueeyeliner said:
8-) This website is chock full of great and wonderful information.
http://www.soulcare.org/Creation/Evolution.html
Here is a quick way to understand evolution. You can watch evolution by eye with things that reproduce quickly like bacteria and viruses. Creationists tend to call this microevolution and say they believe in it. So do you also believe in "microevolution"?

Macroevolution is what Creationists tend to disbelieve. However, with the data from microevolution, you can show macroevolution with the assumption that you have more time (billions of years).

Quath

:o What in the world did you mean by all that mess you just wrote?
 
[quote="SyntaxVorlon
And here you misunderstand genetics. 98% of human and chimpanzee DNA is identical, this means that not only are the same WORDs involved, the same SENTENCEs and meaning are involved. The message that is conveyed by our DNA is 98% identical to that conveyed by chimpanzees. You'll notice the resembence. The differences stand out, but then it certainly would stand out if someone gave Anna Karenina a different ending. Though a more complete analogy is that, when writting Anna Karenina, Doestchevski wrote two different endings, one where she dies and everyone's sad and the other where she lives and stays in Italy with her lover.

I would refute more, but I need sleep.

:B-fly: I agree,you do need sleep,because even your arguments are
tired. You continuosly point out that you will believe just about anything!
There is no way that anyone in their right mind would believe such out-
raqeous lies,and no way would anyone even have to question it.
Some things are just no brainers,yet you will believe anything except
holiness and the fact that God really lives and is involved with the world.
Please watch who you try to insult. Gary is very intelligent,and he has
shown you when you royaly messed up,amen.
Why do you always cry "straw man' "straw man" when you lose?
 
blueeyeliner said:
What did you mean when you so lamely tried to use bacteria as evidence for evolution?
Bacteria is a lifeform that has DNA and reproduces very quickly. Most Creationists call this microevolution. Most Creationists websites support this type of evolution because it is observable. For example, when vaccine stops working against a virus, it is due to microevolution.

So what I am saying is tht microevolution is the same as macroevolution with the assumption that the timescale is billions of years.

Quath
 
Quath said:
blueeyeliner said:
What did you mean when you so lamely tried to use bacteria as evidence for evolution?
Bacteria is a lifeform that has DNA and reproduces very quickly. Most Creationists call this microevolution. Most Creationists websites support this type of evolution because it is observable. For example, when vaccine stops working against a virus, it is due to microevolution.

So what I am saying is tht microevolution is the same as macroevolution with the assumption that the timescale is billions of years.

Quath

:roll: What rubbish!
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... sp?ID=2670
please read slowly so you may be able to understand,K?
 
blueeyeliner said:
What rubbish!
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... sp?ID=2670
please read slowly so you may be able to understand,K?
I feel sorry for you if this is where you get your science. This is the yellow journalism of science.

You basically have to assume that 95% of scientists are idiots and 5% are geniuses. Not only that. These creationist scientists never seem to get creationist material into peer reviewed journals. I guess the creationist material is only understandable by these elite genius scienists and can not be explained to the ordinary scienists so they just publish on the internet.

Fortunately for the rest of the world, scientists do use the theory of evolution to prove amazing stuff. If it weren't for these loony scientists then we would be fighting plagues by trying to cast the demons out.

Quath
 
Quath said:
blueeyeliner said:
What rubbish!
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... sp?ID=2670
please read slowly so you may be able to understand,K?
I feel sorry for you if this is where you get your science. This is the yellow journalism of science.

You basically have to assume that 95% of scientists are idiots and 5% are geniuses. Not only that. These creationist scientists never seem to get creationist material into peer reviewed journals. I guess the creationist material is only understandable by these elite genius scienists and can not be explained to the ordinary scienists so they just publish on the internet.

Fortunately for the rest of the world, scientists do use the theory of evolution to prove amazing stuff. If it weren't for these loony scientists then we would be fighting plagues by trying to cast the demons out.

Quath

:bday: Sorry,but there is a great deal of evidence that you had to
over look in order to make that silly statement.
Scientist don't use the religion/theory of evolution to prove anything!
I can't believe you are calling other scientists looney like that.
Will wonders ever cease?
 
blueeyeliner said:
Scientist don't use the religion/theory of evolution to prove anything!
It is used in the study of plagues and viruses. Flu shots would not need to be updated if it weren't for evolution. Anti-biotic resistance bacteria would not develop if evolution were false. I could give you a lot more, but I doubt you would try to comprehend it.

Quath
 
Quath said:
blueeyeliner said:
Scientist don't use the religion/theory of evolution to prove anything!
It is used in the study of plagues and viruses. Flu shots would not need to be updated if it weren't for evolution. Anti-biotic resistance bacteria would not develop if evolution were false. I could give you a lot more, but I doubt you would try to comprehend it.

Quath

8-) Quath,Quath,Quath........
there you go again! How you just love to toy with me. you should
know by now that sin causes sickness to increase,and the wicked
are spreading it around to the innocent and don't even show any
kind of remorse for it.
Flu shots need to be updated because people can get away with only
so much. The person addicted to cocaine can only use it for so long
before it takes it's toll. The same is true of any drug.
All you are saying is that people became dependent on the drugs to
cure the illness instead of doing things to prevent the illnesses.
 
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