Scripture Studies Re Babylon

[JHM]

@ Shiloghsfoal : Well now I know you didn't read what I posted. That much is clear, because it is easy enough to understand if you do read it; and you clearly don't understand it. Well I guess that is your problem.

As regards the interpretation of Daniel Chapter 8, I offer the following alternate interpretation, which unlike yours, was indeed sealed up until the "Latter Days".

See Daniel 8 : 3 - 4 (Revised Standard Version)
Daniel 8 : 3 - 4 : I raised my eyes and saw, and behold, a ram standing on the bank of the river. It had two horns; and both horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last.

One might apply that description of the "Ram" to the "Communist Bloc" wherein the two great horns would be Russia and China with China ultimately becoming the higher horn.

See Daniel 8 : 5 - 7 (Revised Standard Version)
Daniel 8 : 5 - 7 : As I was considering, behold, a he-goat came from the west across the face of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes. He came to the ram with the two horns, which I had seen standing on the bank of the river, and he ran at him in his mighty wrath. I saw him come close to the ram, and he was enraged against him and struck the ram and broke his two horns; and the ram had no power to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled upon him; and there was noone who could rescue the ram from his power.

One might also apply the "He-Goat" to the "Capitalist Bloc", wherein the single great horn was the United States. And yes the "He-Goat" came from the west, and yes he did come across the face of the whole earth, and no he didn't touch the ground. (Whereever they fought over the years it was usually capitalist helicopter gunships and jet fighter bombers vs. communist guerillas armed with AK47 assault rifles.)

And yes the "He-Goat" did attack the "Ram". There were capitalist troops from many nations including the United States fighting on the side of the "Whites" during the Russian revolution. Further the Capitalist bloc would not allow third world countries to embrace "Socialism"; and whenever a third world country tried to go socialist there was intervention to prevent it. And yes the "He-Goat" did defeat the "Ram", and break up the two great horns. The U.S.S.R fell apart, and Russia and China abbandoned their close alliance; and both have to some extent taken up capitalism.

See Daniel 8 : 8 (Revised Standard Version)
Daniel 8 : 8 : Then the "He-Goat" magnified himself exceedingly; but when he was strong, the great horn was broken ....

Yes the Berlin wall came down; and the communist satellites for the most part went capitalist, bowing down to the "World's Only Superpower"; and then the single great HORN BROKE --- that's where we are NOW. The rest; only the future will tell.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Not a problem. My studies have led me to led me to explore Biblical history. I guess I am drifting from the roots of my futuristic End Times view and relying a bit more on what has transpired. As the Reformer and Historicist said, Most prophecy is history pre-written. ;)

Just a friendly question; do you dismiss the historical accounts I quoted above and if so, why?

Because as I see it,this chapter is a list of events that take place leading up to the time of the end as in Dan 11;40.I believe Im watching the events in this chapter taking place from the time the Israeli goverment became a nation to the end.

Oh, as you probably guessed, I knew the body is the Temple and that there is little need for a future, physical Temple.

If I were a betting man,I would have won me some money.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

One might apply that description of the "Ram" to the "Communist Bloc" wherein the two great horns would be Russia and China with China ultimately becoming thre higher horn.

I just cant seem to apply the words Media and Persia to Russia and China.
Dan 8;20
The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Its like trying to apply the word Judea to the USA.It just doesnt quite fit.

 

[JHM]

Not knowing much about the history of "Media" and "Persia" apart from the fact that at one point the Persians exiled the Israelites from the Holy Land; I am not sure what parallels there might be between them and Russia and China.This I do know, however, they couldn't use the names "Russia" and China", the words didn't exist. They could perhaps have said "Gog" and "Magog"; but for reasons best known to God they did not.

This I can assure you, however :

1) At no previous time in history have nations fought one another by "Coming across the face of the whole earth" to do so.

2) At no previous time in history have warriors travelled "without touching the ground".

3) Daniel 8 : 17 (Revised Standard Version) ... "Understand , O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end." This too suggests that my interpretation is correct. There could be no interpretation of the He-Goat not touching the ground until the invention of powered flight.

4) It also fits the facts quite well.

Re your interpretation : It is not endtime. If that interpretation were correct anyone could have figured it out a long time ago. i.e. it would not have been "Sealed" until the endtimes.

5) At no time have I said that Judea is the United states. What I say is that the Daughter of Babylon is the United States. You have the warped idea that is is Jerusalem & Judea. Not me.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Not knowing much about the history of "Media" and "Persia" apart from the fact that at one point the Persians exiled the Israelites from the Holy Land; .

:gah

1) At no previous time in history have nations fought one another by "Coming across the face of the whole earth" to do so.

Thats your opinion.

2) At no previous time in history have warriors travelled "without touching the ground".

That would be incorrect.

3) Daniel 8 : 17 (Revised Standard Version) ... "Understand , O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end." This too suggests that my interpretation is correct. There could be no interpretation of the He-Goat not touching the ground until the invention of powered flight.

Like Ive said ,the prophecy spans 2300 years .From the time of the first king from the west to the last king from the west,even to the time of the little horn which is today.
But you havnt even spoken of the little horn of the beast which is what most prophecy seems to concern.

Re your interpretation : It is not endtime. If that interpretation were correct anyone could have figured it out a long time ago. i.e. it would not have been "Sealed" until the endtimes.

You still havnt fiquerd it out.

5) At no time have I said that Judea is the United states. What I say is that the Daughter of Babylon is the United States. You have the warped idea that is is Jerusalem & Judea. Not me.

Not only do I have the warped idea that Jerusalem is a harlet,so does scripture.Your the only one who doesnt seem to think so.Perhaps you never knew a prophet couldnt perish away from Jerusalem.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Luke 13;34
O Jerusalem,Jerusalem,which killest the prophets,and stonest them that are sent unto thee;how often would I have gatherd thy children together,as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings,and ye would not!

Rev 17;6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints,and with the blood of the marters of Jesus;and when I saw her,I wonderd with great admiration.

Rev 18;24
And in her was found the blood of prophets,and of saints,and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Mat 23;35
That upon you may come all the riightous blood shed upon the earth,from the blood of rightous Abel unto the blood of Zecharial son of Barachias,whom ye slew between the temple and the alter.

 

[Vic C.]

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Mark 15:13 And they cried out again, Crucify him.
Mark 15:14 Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.

Not knowing much about the history of "Media" and "Persia" apart from the fact that at one point the Persians exiled the Israelites from the Holy Land;

The Babylonians were the cause of the Exile; the Persians overthrew Babylonia and allowed them to return to their land. Read Ezra 1.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The Babylonians were the cause of the Exile; the Persians overthrew Babylonia and allowed them to return to their land. Read Ezra 1.

This is like reading a prophecy thats a shadow of a prophecy.

The Israeli goverment rules Babylon for 70 years.It says it has gatherd all the scatterd sheep of Israel into thier land.After 70 years Babylon is destroyed and the inhabitants gnash thier teeth.Then Jesus saves the elect and gathers the scatterd sheep of Israel into thier land.

Yeap,sounds about right.

 

[JHM]

You people don't seem to have a clue about the realities of the world. I typed this up on my machine without seeing your latest nonsense so it doesn't apply to that, just the former stuff.

Oh Now I begin to understand.

It was Israel's fault that God knows how many Vietnamese died so the U.S. could retain control of 60% of the "Free World's" supply of tin; (Which came from Vietnam) -- (The principal use of which is to make "Solder", which is of course vitally important for "Electronics" which was the basis of the U.S. military superiority); and it's Israel's fault that the U.S. declared "Peace with Honour", (while abbandoning their South Vietnamese allies), when in 1972 "Large Scale Integrated Circuits" were invented allowing designers to eliminate millions of "Solder Joints".

And it was Israel's fault that when the Chileans freely elected a socialist President, (Allende), who ran on the platform of : "Nationalizing the copper mines, - raising the price of copper; - and raising the standard of living of Chileans", (90% of the "Free World" supply of copper came from 7 BIG copper mines; 2 in Africa; and the other 5 in Chile), That RICHARD NIXON (remember who that was ?) called RICHARD HELMS (The then Director of the CIA) into his office and said : "Here is $20,000,000.00 to start, more if you need it, see that S.O.B. NEVER TAKES POWER. The result was the military coup by General Auguste Pinochet. Allende and 300 of his closest supporters were killed defending the Presidential Palace against an armoured regiment. 10,000 of his other supporters were rounded up, herded into a soccer stadium, and machine gunned to death. Upwards of 30,000 Chileans were murdered by the Pinochet government installed by NIXON'S sponsored coup. Both A. T.&T., (World's largest consumer of copper), and the CIA were caught red handed in sponsoring the Pinochet coup; and Pinochet was kept in power for 18 years. Why ? Fiber optics had been invented; BUT they didn't figure out a cheap reliable way to "Splice" fiber optic cables without losing the signal for another 18 years. D'Oh.

Both Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan said : "We can't take further sanctions against South Africa; it would hurt the blacks more than it would hurt the whites." LIARS both of them!!! Nelson Mandela spent 27 years in jail because the CIA advised the Apartheid government to jail him. Are you ready ?

90% of the "Free World" supply of : Gold, Platinum, Chromium, Tungsten, Titanium, Molybdenum, Manganese, Vanadium, Gallium, Rhodium, and Paladium ALL CAME FROM SOUTH AFRICA !!! Who would "Sanctions against the Apartheid Regime have REALLY HURT ?? D'Oh If you knew anything at all about what those minerals are used for, and what is impossible without them you would realize that without them the Western Bloc would have collapsed. The real choice facing Reagan and Thatcher was support the Apartheid Regime or overthrow it. Period!! They chose to support it.

The following was posted at another site and I have not bothered to edit it to remove parts which are pertinent to that site rather than this one.

Collectively, those who have posted remarks about Iran in this thread have a lot to learn about HISTORY, the SCRIPTURES, and CHRISTIANITY. Anybody who advocates NUKING another country is NO Christian. Although I cannot tell you the chapter and verse off the top of my head, the Bible does say that the Children of Ishmael; and the Children of Isaac will get along, -- AFTER the HARLOT is destroyed. If you knew anything about history, you would know too that the reason the American Embassy hostages were released as soon as RAYGUN came to power, was because a deal had already been cut for the U.S. to supply arms under the table to Iran, which was at the time fighting a war against Iraq. Remember OLLIE NORTH anyone? Yes OLLIE, the gun runner, who sold arms to Iran at black market prices, and used the profits generated thereby to finance the planeloads of arms delivered to the "Contras" in Nicaragua; while bringing in planeloads of cocaine to the U.S. on the return flights; -- See Deep Cover by Micheal Levine. (A Senior DEA Agent)

Four times according to : "The Chronology - The Iran Contra Scam Scandal" put out by "The Strategic Studies Institute" in the U.S.; OLLIE approached RAYGUN asking is it OK to sell these arms to Iran? Four times the answer was : "OK, as long as you don't upset the balance of the war." Why ?

The answer to that is complex.

History 101:
In 1970 The Shah of Iran unilaterally seized disputed territory lying between Iraq and Iran; but Iraq was powerless to do anything about it; and therefore swallowed it. Why? Because Iran was a much more populous country, with superior American weapons systems, as opposed to the Soviet weapons systems possessed by Iraq.

Fast forward : Prior to the 1973 Arab Israeli war, the price of oil was $2.35 per barrel at the wellhead. During the 1973 Arab Israeli war the Arabs instituted an oil embargo against those nations that supported Israel. The price of oil skyrocketed and eventually every nation on earth with the exception of the United States knuckled under and withdrew its support of Israel, with the Netherlands being the last to do so.

After the war the Arabs continued to use the power of their oil to generate revenue by keeping OPEC in force and setting up production quotas which insured a slightly undersupplied market, thereby driving the price of oil ever higher. The U.S. put pressure on Nigeria, thought to be the weakest link in OPEC, in an effort to break up the cartel; but the Nigerians withstood the pressure; and the price of oil continued to rise.


Later when President Carter, (a decent man and true Christian), pulled the plug on the Shah of Iran, by withdrawing American support from what he perceived as being a corrupt and murderous dictatorship, the Shah left the country and went into exile. The Ayatollah Khoumani, who had been in exile under the Shah, returned to Iran and a four way power struggle developed in Iran between Khoumani, Iranian Communists, another rival Ayatollah, and the secular politician whom the American CIA had chosen to succeed the Shah. Each of these four had their own corps of "Revolutionary Guards", (essentially armed civilians with no more than armbands to identify them by faction). One of these groups of "Revolutionary Guards" siezed the American Embassy. At the same time one of these groups of "Revolutionary Guards", (possibly, though not necessarily the same one), staged a series of border incidents with Iraq.

Consider the situation at that time from the Iraqi viewpoint :
1) Iran had unilaterally siezed disputed territory that Iraq claimed in 1970.
2) Iraq had been powerless to do anything about it.
3) Iran had severed its American arms connection by siezing the American Embassy.
4) Iraq retained its Soviet arms connection.
5) Iran was internally divided in a four way power struggle.
6) Iraq was united.

Given those circumstances Iraq on a "Now or Never" basis launched the Iran Iraq war in an effort to regain that territory.

During the early stages of the war the price of oil continued to rise, eventually hitting $43.00 per barrel at the wellhead. At that time the U.S. was importing 10 Million barrels of oil per diem, western Europe was importing 7.6 million barrels of oil per diem; and Japan was importing 6 million barrels of oil per diem. In short the price of the Western Powers "OIL HABIT" had gone from 55 Million 436 Thousand dollars per DAY to 1 Billion 14 Million 800 Thousand dollars per DAY.

Iran was the "Natural" winner in the sense that it had a much larger population, and could field a much larger army; but their difficulty in obtaining weapons created a balance. As the war ground on, (It was called "The Forgotten War" in the Canadian media), both sides began to break their OPEC oil production quotas, selling more than their alloted amount of oil to finance "Arms Purchases". Why was OLLIE allowed to sell arms to the Iranians ? To Keep the war balanced and ongoing. "OK as long as you don't upset the balance of the war" BECAUSE AS LONG AS THE WAR LASTED, (and it lasted eight years), OPEC DID NOT CONTROL THE PRICE OF OIL, THE WAR DID. All of the Arab oil producing countries were backing one side or the other; and rendering financial assistance which was financed by OIL SALES; and the slightly undersupplied market became an oversupplied market, or GLUT; and the price of oil fell to $10.00 per barrel which reduced the price of the Western Powers "OIL HABIT" to 236 Million dollars per DAY.

The MAIN reason the Iranians today hate the United States is because during that war, the United States systematically starved them of weapons, giving them just enough to keep on fighting, (provided they used tactics that cost a lot of blood, [which they as compared to Iraq could afford], to make up for the shortage of weapons); but never enough to WIN. MILLIONS of Iranians died so the Western Powers could have CHEAP OIL.

You call that Christian ? "For her sins are heaped as high as heaven"


At the same time they used the profits from the Iranian arms sales, (Black market prices were charged), to attack the Sandanista government in Nicaragua!! SCUM !! MURDERERS !! (The Sandinistas built more schools and hospitals in 4 years than the Somoza dictatorship that they ousted did in 43 years).

My father was a high level mining executive; eventually becoming : President of La Luz Gold Mines Ltd; President of Rosita Copper Mines Ltd; President of Coniaurum Gold Mines Ltd; Chairman of The Board of Directors of Giant Yellowknife Gold Mines Ltd; Chairman of The Board of Directors of Kilembe Copper Mines Ltd; Manager of Metalurgy for Falconbridge Nickle Mines Ltd; and Vice President of Ventures Mines Ltd.

The La Luz and Rosita mine were situated in Nicaragua which is where I spent my childhood. I remember once when I was about 6 or 7 years old we were riding in a taxicab from the Managua airport into the Grand Hotel in Managua; and I spotted a man with a burro sitting by the side of the road holding a straw hat in his hand.

CONVERSATION :

I asked my father : "Why is he sitting there like that ?
My father replied : "Because he is a beggar Jimmy".
I then asked my father : "Why doesn't he get a job ?
My father replied : "Because he is blind".
I then asked my father : Why is he blind ?
My father asked the cab driver "Hable Anglais ? (Do you speak English ?)
The cab Driver said No
Then My father answered : "Because that is what the Somozas do to their political opponents; - They take them into the basement of the presidential palace and gouge their eyes out, then leave them on the street."
I asked my father : "Then why do the elect the Somozas ?"
My father replied : "Because when there is an election, there is a man sitting beside the ballot box with a box of ( I voted for Somoza) buttons. If they show him their ballot before they put it in the ballot box; and it is marked Somoza, then he gives them a button. If not then no button; and if they don't have that button, then they don't have a job." Harry Trueman on Somoza : "He is a B-a-s-t-a-r-d; but he is OUR B-A-S-T-A-R-D".

Fact : Nicaragua is a poor country, with a population at that time of about 3,500,000 people. The Somozas ruled the country from 1936 until 1979, at which time their corrupt regime was overthrown by the Sandinistas. The last Somoza, (known throughout Nicaragua as "Tachito Somoza"), escaped the country with $540,000,000.00 in cash in a steamer trunk on board his yacht. The "Contras" described by Ronald Reagan as "Freedom Fighters" were the remnants of the old Somoza regime bolstered by mercenaries.

I lived there. We lived in "La Luz", (a Biblical name that), Nicaragua, which was a fenced off all white encampment adjacent to the Nicaraguan town of "Siuna". native Nicaraguans weren't allowed to live in "La Luz". The La Luz mining company, however did extend an offer to live in "La Luz" to the native Nicaraguan dentist; but that offer was declined. In fact the only native Nicaraguans allowed to enter "La Luz" were maids, gardeners, the local barber, and the staff at the Club "Canto Gueya", (the drinking establishment operated by the mining company), and "President Somoza " when he came to visit. (He stayed at our house, and got MY BED on those rare occasions, because my dad was the onsite boss of both the La Luz and Rosita mines at that time.

La Luz, (where the North American staff lived, - population about 250), Siuna, (the native Nicaraguan town at the site of the La Luz gold mine, - Population approximately 6,000), El Salto, (the native Nicarguan town at the site of the mining company's hydroelectric dam, - population unknown; but less than 1000), Yy River, (the all white encampment at the site of the hydroelectric dam, - population less than a dozen), Rosita, (site of the Rosita copper mine, - population unknown to me), and Alimicamba, (a river port where the mining company operated a fleet of tugboats and barges to bring in heavy equipment and supplies), were all joined by a company built unpaved road network but otherwise isolated from the rest of the world. To travel to any of these towns, one either had to fly in by La Nica airlines (DC 3s), or come in by sea to Porto Isabella, (Named after my mother), then tranfer to a tugboat or barge to come into Alimicamba.

Poisonous snakes are a hazard in Nicaragua; and for that reason, one to keep one's lawn trimmed short. So it was that when we arrived there it was normal to see native Nicaraguan gardeners engaged in cutting acres of grass standing bent over swinging machetes. My father introduced "Lawnmowers". He also ignored the "Company Rule" that native Nicaraguans were not allowed to walk alongside company roads, thereby avoiding having to travel through the jungle.

Years later I met a girl who grew up in similar circumstance in an all white oil company town in Venezuela. I suspect that sort of thing was commonplace throughout the third world whereever the capitalist corporations operated. Imagine that !! Foreigners would not allow native citizens to enter towns in their own countries !! Can you spell APARTHEID ? Ever wonder why Chavez dislikes the U.S. ?

Seems the "Free World" wasn't all that "Free' if you weren't white huh ?

So add it up. How many Vietnamese, Iranians, Chileans, Nicaraguans, South Africans, and now Iraquis have been killed by the Harlot ? Of course it's all Israel's fault you say. LIAR !!

 

[JHM]

Well, i suppose I should recheck, But if memory serves me properly, your latest stuff about the exiles of the Israelites is drivel too. If I recall properly they were exiled three times. Once by the Persians, from which exile they returned in mass when allowed to do so. Once by the Babylonians; from which exile only a remnant returned, because Babylon practised freedom of worship; and the result was the bulk of the Israelites exiled there abbandoned worship of their God; and took up worship of the Babylonian gods instead. The third exile was that done by the Romans.

 

[Sinthesis]

...Once by the Babylonians; from which exile only a remnant returned, because Babylon practised freedom of worship; and the result was the bulk of the Israelites exiled there abbandoned worship of their God; and took up worship of the Babylonian gods instead...

Hey look! You have a clue as to how apostate Israel could be refered to as Babylon! :yes

 

[Sinthesis]

...God knows how many Vietnamese died so the U.S. could retain control of 60% of the "Free World's" supply of tin; (Which came from Vietnam) -- (The principal use of which is to make "Solder", which is of course vitally important for "Electronics" which was the basis of the U.S. military superiority)...

This is absolutely false.

 

[JHM]

Fraid not chumly Truth it is.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Rev 18;24
And in her was found the blood of prophets,and of saints,and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Mat 23;35
That upon you may come all the riightous blood shed upon the earth,from the blood of rightous Abel unto the blood of Zecharial son of Barachias,whom ye slew between the temple and the alter.

Jhm
Is it that you dont believe Jesus in Mat 23;35
or you just dont pay attention to anything he says?

JHM"]So add it up. How many Vietnamese, Iranians, Chileans, Nicaraguans, South Africans, and now Iraquis have been killed by the Harlot ? Of course it's all Israel's fault you say. LIAR !!

Seeing that you were replying to my former post when you called me a liar and I gave no interpretation for any of those scriptures,who is it that you are calling a liar?
Jesus?

 

[JHM]

Look, you antisemites want to go to hell, who am I to stop you ? If that is what you want to do then go.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Look, you antisemites want to go to hell, who am I to stop you ? If that is what you want to do then go.

Mat 23;35
That upon you may come all the riightous blood shed upon the earth,from the blood of rightous Abel unto the blood of Zecharial son of Barachias,whom ye slew between the temple and the alter.

Does this mean Jesus is an antisemite?

 

[JHM]

Abraham

In Abrahams day; when The Lord came to pay; a visit inspecting the grain;
He soon found that weeds; had sprung from the seeds; preserved from the deluge of rain.
And since there was need; of an untainted seed; to establish a crop again;
He chose one whose wife; had been barren for life; for assurance he'd breed a pure strain.

See Genesis 12 1-3 Revised Standard Version.
Genesis 12 1-3 : Now The Lord said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him that curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves."

See Genesis 16 1, 2, note (b), 4, & 15 Jerusalem Bible.
Genesis 16 1-2 : Abram's wife Sarai had borne him no child, but she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar. So Sarai said to Abram, 'Listen, now! Since Yahweh has kept me from having children, go to my slave-girl. Perhaps I shall get children through her.' (b) Abram agreed to what Sarai had said.

note (b) : According to Mesopotamian law a barren wife could present one of her female slaves to the husband and acknowledge the issue as her own. The same is to happen in Rachel's case.

Genesis 16 4 : He went to Hagar and she conceived. And once she knew she had conceived, her mistress counted for nothing in her eyes.

Genesis 16 15 : Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave to the son that Hagar bore the name Ishmael.

See Genesis 17 1-2 & 5 Jerusalem Bible.
Genesis 17 1-2 : When Abram was ninety-nine years old Yahweh appeared to him and said,'I am El Shaddai. Bear yourself blameless in my presence, and I will make a Covenant between myself and you, and increase your numbers greatly.'

Genesis 17 5 : You shall no longer be called Abram; your name shall be Abraham, for I will make you father of a multitude of nations .

See Genesis 17 15-21 Jerusalem Bible.
Genesis 17 15-21 : God said to Abraham, 'As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her Sarai, but Sarah. I will bless her and moreover give you a son by her. I will bless her and nations shall come out of her; kings of peoples shall descend from her.' Abraham bowed to the ground, and he laughed, thinking to himself, 'Is a child to be born to a man one hundred years old, and will Sarah have a child at the age of ninety?' Abraham said to God, 'Oh let Ishmael live in your presence!' But God replied, 'No, but your wife Sarah shall bear you a son whom you are to name Isaac. With him I will establish my Covenant, a Covenant in perpetuity, to be his God and the God of his descendants after him. For Ishmael too I grant you your request: I bless him and I will make him fruitful and greatly increased in numbers. He will be the father of twelve princes, and I will make of him a great nation. But my Covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear you at this time next year.'

Note that the Covenant is not established with Abraham, but rather with Isaac.

See Genesis 21 1-3 Revised Standard Version.
Genesis 21 1-3 :The Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and The Lord did to Sarah as he had promised. And Sarah conceived, and bore Abraham a son in his old age at the time of which God had spoken to him. Abraham called the name of his son who was born to him, whom Sarah bore him, Isaac.

See Genesis 6 4 Revised Standard Version.
Genesis 6 4 : The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came into the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

See Genesis 6 4 New International Version.
Genesis 6 4 : The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Note that the language is very similar: "visited", "came into", and "went to". In the latter two cases, there is no doubt whatever that the meaning is that of sexual cohabitation. In the case of "visited", however, there is the added complication that Sarah was barren. Since the visit resulted in her pregnancy, the visitation may well have entailed a medical procedure.

See Deuteronomy 32 5, note (c), & 6 Jerusalem Bible.
Deuteronomy 32 5:They have acted perversely, those he begot without blemish, (c) a deceitful and underhand brood.

note (c) : Literally 'not sons of blemish'. Israel is of noble birth , being born of Yahweh; his degeneration is his own doing. The text of the verse is corrupt.

Deuteronomy 32 6: Is this the return you make to Yahweh? O foolish unwise people! Is not this your father, who gave you being, who made you, by whom you subsist?

See Deuteronomy 32 18-20 (The Song Of Moses) Jerusalem Bible.
Deuteronomy 32 18-20 : (You forget the Rock who begot you, unmindful now of the God who fathered you.) Yahweh has seen this, and in his anger cast off his sons and daughters. "I shall hide my face from them," he says "and see what becomes of them. For they are a deceitful brood, children with no loyalty in them.


See Ezekiel 16 20-22 Jerusalem Bible.
Ezekiel 16 20-22 : You have even - it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks - taken the sons and daughters you bore me and sacrificed them as food to the images. Was it not enough for you just to be a whore? You have slaughtered my children and handed them over as a burnt offering to them, and in all your filthy practices and your whorings you have never remembered your youth or the time when you were quite naked and struggling in your own blood.

Note: The foregoing quotations refer to the Israelites as the "Children of Yahweh". Given the circumstances of the birth of Isaac, this may very well be literally true, and I for one believe it is; irrespective of how Isaac was actually conceived. Consider: Given that the story of creation is true, God planted a pure strain of men upon the earth. Along came his enemy, and corrupted that strain by interbreeding with it, (The fallen Angels). God, returning from having been away, finds his planted race polluted. He then proceeded to find one uncorrupted member of the race, (Noah), arranged for his safety, then proceeded to destroy the rest to wipe the slate clean for a new start. Having done this, God promised Noah that there would be no further destructions for a time. Noah, however, was married, with three sons, and three daughters in law, all of whom were saved with him, (Total eight people). Somewhere among the other seven the corrupted strain survived. When God next returned, he found the race still polluted. Again he finds one uncorrupted member of the race; but this time to avoid further pollution, he takes care to select a man with a barren wife, (Abraham). He then arranges that a "pure strain child" be born to that woman, and gives instructions, that this child, and his descendants should only marry within his father's, (also pure strain), immediate family; thereby in this manner reestablishing the original pure strain of man. Be it noted that Jews trace their ancestry through the mother's side of their family. This practice is completely consistent with the thesis, that Sarah, (who had been barren lifelong), did not contribute anything to Isaac's genetic makeup; but rather that God Himself, provided the female genetic material, for Abraham to fertilize; and the practice of tracing ancestry through the mother's side, is actually tracing ancestry to God.

See Genesis 31 42 & 53 King James Version.
Genesis 31 42 : Except the God of my father, the God of Abraham, and the fear of Isaac, had been with me, surely thou hadst sent me away empty. God hath seen mine affliction and the labour of my hands, and rebuked thee yesternight.

Genesis 31 53 : The God of Abraham, and the God of Nahor, the God of their father, judge betwixt us. And Jacob sware by the fear of his father Isaac.

See Genesis 31 42, note (b), 53, & note (g) New Revised Standard Version.

Genesis 31 42 : If the God of my father, the God of Abraham and the Fearb of Isaac, had not been on my side, surely now you would have sent me away empty-handed. God saw my affliction and the labor of my hands, and rebuked you last night.

note (b) : Meaning of Hebrew uncertain.

Genesis 31 53 : May the God of Abraham and the God of Nahor" - The God of their father - "judge between us." So Jacob swore by the Fear (g) of his father Isaac.

note (g) : Meaning of Hebrew uncertain.

See Genesis 31 42, note (k), & 53 Jerusalem Bible.
Genesis 31 42 : If the God of my father, the God of Abraham, the Kinsman of Isaac, (k) had not been with me, you would have sent me away empty-handed. But God has seen my weariness and the work done by my hands, and last night he delivered judgement.

note (k) : A name for God that appears only here and in v. 53; Arabic and Palmyrene Aramaic justify this translation; hitherto the phrase has been rendered 'the fear of Isaac'.

Genesis 31 53 : May the God of Abraham and the God of Nahor judge between us.' So Jacob swore by the Kinsman of his father Isaac.

Note: The New Revised Standard Version capitalizes the word "Fear"; which unless starting a sentence, is customary only for proper names. Also note according to the New Revised Standard, the meaning of the word translated as "Fear" is uncertain. Further note that the Jerusalem Bible translates the word as a name of God; meaning "Kinsman" of Isaac.

See Strong's Main Concordance: fear.
Strong's fear: Ge 31 42 : and the fear of Isaac had been with ... . 6343
Ge 31 53 : Jacob sware by the fear of his father ... . 6343

See Strong's Hebrew dictionary entry 6343.
Strong's 6343:

pachad, pakh`- ad; from 6342; a (sudden ) alarm (properly the object feared, by implication the feeling) : - dread (- ful), fear, (thing) great [fear, - ly feared] , terror.

See Strong's Hebrew dictionary entry 6344.
Strong's 6344 :

pachad, pakh`- ad; the same as 6343; a testicle (as a cause of shame akin to fear) : - stone.

Note: Since the Hebrew word for "fear", which is translated in the Jerusalem Bible as “The Kinsman†in these two passages; and these two passages only; is identical in all respects to the Hebrew word for "testicle"; and given the circumstances of the birth of Isaac, and also given that the Bible refers to the Israelites as God's children, and further given that it was common practice for the Israelites to clutch their testicles when swearing an oath, (swearing in effect by their descendants, or by God), I believe that testicle" would be the correct translation to be used in both Genesis 31 42, and Genesis 31 53. The only reason it has not been so translated I suspect, is the reluctance of religious authorities to accept the concept of the resultant reading:

Genesis 31 42 : Revised Standard Version. (Modified to substitute “Testicle†for “Fearâ€Â)
"If the God of my father, the God of Abraham and the Testicle of Isaac, had not been on my side, surely now you would have sent me away empty handed. God saw my affliction and the labour of my hands, and rebuked you last night."

Note: This concept of the Israelites being literally "The Children of God" gives new meaning to their being called "The Chosen". Whose children would he choose to favour, if not his own? It also gives new meaning to the quotation: "I will bless those that bless you, and him that curses you I will curse." - The antisemitic religious right would be wise to take note.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

This is a christian board.If you want to preach Judaism then visit a Judaism board.




Gal 3;16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.He saith not,And to thy seeds as of many;but as of one,And to thy seed,which is Christ.

Gal 3;29
And if ye be Christ's ,then are ye Abrahams seed,and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Rev 18;24
And in her was found the blood of prophets,and of saints,and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Mat 23;35
That upon you may come all the rightous blood shed upon the earth,from the blood of rightous Abel unto the blood of Zecharial son of Barachias,whom ye slew between the temple and the alter.

JHM
Do you believe Jesus?

 

[Vic C.]

You people don't seem to have a clue about the realities of the world. I typed this up on my machine without seeing your latest nonsense so it doesn't apply to that, just the former stuff.

Look, you antisemites want to go to hell, who am I to stop you ? If that is what you want to do then go.

OK, I encourage everyone's opinions but these constant insults and belittling will cease and desist now! There is no reason for this simply because myself and other don't see it as you do.

Please check the egos at the door or don't bother to open it up and walk through it. :gah No one is being antisemitic here, especially when Biblical proof is used. I resent being called antisemitic. :bigfrown