watchman F
Member
The sad thing is smaller no matter what the Bible says or does not say you will not believe the truth becasuse you have already hardened your heart.
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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2nd Peter 2Then there is the additional problem that IF a believer falls back UNDER THE WILL of Satan in this present life, that one is if anything A FALLEN COMMRADE of FAITH, not an eternal LOOSER. God is not about to FRY fallen warriors, but WILL in fact SAVE them regardless because there IS AN ENEMY upon them to VIEW for judgments that IS NOT THEM, but the DEVIL(s.)
No fallen believer should be viewed AS ALONE in their blinded state. There is A CAUSE that is upon their MIND and HEART that is NOT THEM.
It says here that those that turn from their salvation are worse off than those that have never believed.
Those that have never believed are on their way to Hell.
How can those that have falling away be better of than non believers
i they are not also going to Hell. In other words, someone that is on their way to Heaven cannot be worse off than someone one their way to Hell.
There are exactly ZERO indications in ALL and ANY of those scriptures that says a 'believer' lost their salvation 'eternally.' Zero. The position that you 'think' those scriptures speak to do NOT equate to 'eternal permanent and absolute' loss. Not a one of them.
The sad thing is smaller no matter what the Bible says or does not say you will not believe the truth becasuse you have already hardened your heart.
You have proven this statement correct smaller, by your denial of the obvious. Someone headed for Heaven, cannot be worse off than someone headed for Hell.The sad thing is smaller no matter what the Bible says or does not say you will not believe the truth becasuse you have already hardened your heart.
Not only do those that believe in OSAS not have scriptural support they MUST deny, dismiss, and ignore large portions of scripture to hold to thier false belief.IF you are presenting that people who believe in OSAS are without direct scriptural support, you are assuredly wrong.
Paul not only did not believe in OSAS he knew that he himself could possibly fall away.Paul specifically DENIES any such adherents of 'eternal security lost' right here. Yet (supposed believers) outright VIOLATE this admonition every time they touch this topic:
Not suprising that you a believer in false doctrine would so pitifully use such a scripture as this out of order. Paul were writting to Jews who were condemning Gentiles in Rome for doing things they themselves were doing. I do nt believe in OSAS, not do I dismiss scripture to continue believing false doctrine. Therefore this scripturwe has absolutely nothing to do with me at all.Romans 2:1
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
You have proven this statement correct smaller, by your denial of the obvious. Someone headed for Heaven, cannot be worse off than someone headed for Hell.
Not only do those that believe in OSAS not have scriptural support they MUST deny, dismiss, and ignore large portions of scripture to hold to thier false belief.
Paul not only did not believe in OSAS he knew that he himself could possibly fall away.
1st Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Not suprising that you a believer in false doctrine would so pitifully use such a scripture as this out of order.
Paul were writting to Jews who were condemning Gentiles in Rome for doing things they themselves were doing.
I do nt believe in OSAS, not do I dismiss scripture to continue believing false doctrine. Therefore this scripturwe has absolutely nothing to do with me at all.
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I'm confused by your contradictory statements ....
First and foremost, you need to grasp a right understanding of "elect".
Does it not mean those chosen by God for salvation ??
In short ....
All elected ones = Confirmed Saved
But not all who claim to be saved = Elected ones
Hope my equations are right ! ... Does this make sense ?
First, let me heartily commend you for taking Paul at his word here in Romans 11 - God did indeed "blind" most Jews so that God could bring salvation to Gentiles.Rom 11:26
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
NKJV
God blinded most of the Jews so that prophecy would be fulfilled. The Jews had to reject Jesus so God could bring salvation to the gentiles. The ones that God drew to Jesus are the ones that He chose to let see and believe.
Watchman was correct in his reply...IF you are presenting that people who believe in OSAS are without direct scriptural support, you are assuredly wrong. I am not a newcomer to the charades of other believers who justify themselves and their state and condemn other believers.
Paul specifically DENIES any such adherents of 'eternal security lost' right here. Yet (supposed believers) outright VIOLATE this admonition every time they touch this topic:
Romans 2:1
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
You see I might see the very speakers doing the CONDEMNING of other believers are already UNDER THE same CONDEMNATION they are seeking to BRING upon OTHERS.
I do not view such speakers as eternally lost. They are temporary CAPTIVES of the workings of CONDEMNATION that is BOILING within themselves that has risen to the surface of their hearts for VIEWING.
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Watchman was correct in his reply...
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Watchman was correct in his reply...
Romans 1:19-32
Example of apostates
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for. God hath shewed it unto them 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Apostates were saved, but fell away and departed from the faith. As you can see by verse 21, they knew God at one time. The Greek word for „knew‟ is „ginosko,‟ which means they knew by experience; they were aware of; could feel; had knowledge; perceived; and understood (Jn.1:48; Eph.5:5; 1 Jn.5:20). They knew God, but their reasoning had substituted His glory for foolish concepts, making the creation greater than the Creator. They had grown cold, like Demas (Col.4:14; 2 Tim.4:10; Ph‟m.24), losing the fear of the Lord required to assure you continue in Him and keep your righteousness (Lk.12:5; 1 Pt.4:17-18; Heb.10:26-31). The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction (Pro.1:7). They had become fools and their hearts grew in darkness instead of in the knowledge and grace of our Lord.
Verse 24 gives the result of apostasy, which in this case was sexual immorality of uncleanness and sex perversions. God permitted this to happen. It‟s like in 1 Corinthians 5 where Paul told the church to give the sinner over to Satan for the destruction of the body that it may lead him back to the Lord for the saving of his soul. Uncleanness is the scriptural term for homosexuality and other sex perversions of men and women (2 Cor.12:21; Gal.5:19; Eph.4:19; 5:3; Col.3:5; 1 Thes.4:7; 2 Pt.2:10).
Because of the apostasy of verses 21-25, God gave those reprobates up to passions of disgrace and embarrassment. The women chose women for sexual relations, as did the men who chose men out of unnatural lust. They were indecent and received back in full the retribution of their rootlessness (Mat.13:3; Jn.15:6), which is their wickedly wrong actions that only lead to eternal death no matter who you believe in (Jas.2:17-19).
Notice in verse 28 that God gave them over to a reprobate mind. The word „reprobate‟ was translated from the Greek word „adokimos.‟ This is the same word used in 2 Corinthians 13:5-7; 2 Timothy 3:8; Titus 1:16, translated „rejected‟ in Hebrews 6:8, and „castaway‟ in 1 Corinthians 9:27. What house can have two masters? If you aren‟t following Christ‟s ways of living according to the Spirit, and are living according to the desires of the flesh instead, then you are against God and have become His enemy (Mat.12:25-30; Jas.4:4; 2 Jn.9).
The next four verses (29-32) have been referenced throughout the entirety of this book, usually going hand in hand with theses verses: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3-7; Colossians 3:5-10; and Revelation 21:8. There are many more, but all these verses commonly group lists of sins together from lying to murdering, and then inform you that anyone doing any of these ungodly acts will either incur God‟s judgment, not inherit His kingdom, or be thrown into the lake of fire. That‟s just three different ways to say the same thing. Funny how all these warnings of continued sin have been written to the church, yet the church concludes those judgments to be upon unbelievers only.
All these sins are either the result of apostasy or apostasy is the result of sin. Both are true. By sinning, you can still go to church every Sunday, hold the belief that Jesus is the only way to receive eternal life (Jn.14:6; Acts 4:12), and be equal to an apostate in God‟s eyes. The only difference between someone who never received the saving grace that comes only from Jesus and someone who neglected their salvation is that the one who had eternal life promised to them at one point will have it worse in hell (2 Pt.2:20-22). Verse 32 says these apostates knew the judgment of God and knew that those who commit such acts were worthy of death. This is the final result of continued apostasy; knowing your fate, but lacking the fear of God‟s judgment.
The following are some other passages to reference in this study that I feel strong enough to write out in full to assure they‟re read. They all show clear statements of the result of turning from the grace one had once received: “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak (Heb.6:4-9).â€
“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Heb.10:26-31).â€
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire (2 Pt.2:20-22).â€
As has already been shown, this is not a valid argument.The point remains that there is NO BELIEVER in the entirety of the N.T. that is shown to have ETERNALLY LOST their salvation.