security of the believer

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As has already been shown, this is not a valid argument.

One can surmise any reflection from within their own heart, as many have shown. This is a reflection MORE of what is IN THEM than in THE WORD.

There is no statement in the New Testament that Paul ever ate a banana.

Irrelevant. Eternally losing salvation IS a scriptural matter. Though I'm sure somewhere somebody is eternally condemning banana eaters.

In fact, there is no statement in the New Testament that any of the saints ate a banana.

On your logic, this would lead us to conclude that no saint ever ate a banana.

I don't believe spiritual matters involve banana eating. Sorry.

You seem to expect that God would give the New Testament writers knowledge of "what happens after" death to each and every saint. That way we would know if some saint indeed lost their salvation. Do you really think such a "list" is to be expected?

I would expect there to be direct scriptural evidence of such matters.

There is however NONE available.

s

 

[Drew]

One can surmise any reflection from within their own heart, as many have shown. This is a reflection MORE of what is IN THEM than in THE WORD.

This does not address the force of the argument - the fact that God did not reveal the "eternal destiny" of each saint is hardly an argument for eternal security. You presume that we will be given a "list" of what actually happened to people after they died. Not realistic.

Irrelevant. Eternally losing salvation IS a scriptural matter. Though I'm sure somewhere somebody is eternally condemning banana eaters.

It was an illustration, smaller. The general point remains - your position stands on an exceedingly shaky assumption - that if some believer "lost his salvation", some Bible writer would be granted mystical knowledge of this and then would write it down in the Bible.

Possible perhaps, but an exceedingly dubious basis for arguing that no one ever falls away and is lost.

Besides, Paul clearly believed that a believer could be lost - he addresses the following to believers:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

So where does this leave us:

1. Paul clearly believes people can be lost - otherwise this warning makes no sense;

2. smaller tells us that we would expect to see the name, or names, of any saints who fell away and were lost, if it were indeed possible to be lost.

Now who is an author of inspired scripture, Paul or smaller? My point is that even if your argument had the sniff of plausibility, we must, of course, defer to Paul.

 

[smaller]

This does not address the force of the argument - the fact that God did not reveal the "eternal destiny" of each saint

Uh, no, ANY saint. There is no evidence of a single named individual eternally losing their salvation. This is a simple fact.

is hardly an argument for eternal security. You presume that we will be given a "list" of what actually happened to people after they died. Not realistic.

There are extensive scripture sets available for eternal security. Anyone discussing this subject should know both sides of the matters. I have studied and even adhered to the position of NON-eternal security some decades back, and discarded it on the basis of lack of evidence.

It was an illustration, smaller. The general point remains - your position stands on an exceedingly shaky assumption - that if some believer "lost his salvation", some Bible writer would be granted mystical knowledge of this and then would write it down in the Bible.

Yes, one might think that if such a matter were SCRIPTURALLY TRUTHFUL, then it would be applied and shown as such. That is a reasonable expectation.

Possible perhaps, but an exceedingly dubious basis for arguing that no one ever falls away and is lost.

I do not believe that Jesus loses a single sheep. Sorry.

Besides, Paul clearly believed that a believer could be lost - he addresses the following to believers:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Our understandings of these workings will rightfully vary. All mankind dies in any case and they do so because of the presence of indwelling sin, yes, even believers.

So where does this leave us:

1. Paul clearly believes people can be lost - otherwise this warning makes no sense;

The statement indicates no 'eternal loss.' Sorry. And all likewise die because of sin. Your intentions to inflict the penalty further than death and into the eternal torture realm is certainly NOT AVAILABLE in that text.

2. smaller tells us that we would expect to see the name, or names, of any saints who fell away and were lost, if it were indeed possible to be lost.

I have no issues with believers falling into the snares of Satan in this present life. That factually happens everyday. This again does NOT equate to 'eternal loss' of salvation for a believer.

The fact does remain that there is not one single scripture that depicts a believer eternally losing their salvation. Not a one.

Now who is an author of inspired scripture, Paul or smaller? My point is that even if your argument had the sniff of plausibility, we must, of course, defer to Paul.

False dilema Drew. For your lack of evidence, you replace with false dilema. Bananas make for poor footings in these matters.

Paul finished with this:

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Sons of God are NOT lost. Sorry.

There are many usurpers and 'false claimants.'

s

 

[watchman F]

Oh, I would consider a member of the clergy who molests children is in far worse shape than an unbeliever. I still do not believe that believer LOSES their eternal salvation.

This is because what God says in His word as well as all resonable thought has been over ruled by your indoctrination.

 

[Fembot]

I know we aren't all theologians but shouldn't it be universal knowledge that Jesus died for our sins and we must have faith in him first and foremost? The answers are in the Bible. I wish all Christians could have a simple, agreed upon knowledge. It gets too confusing sometimes.

I don't believe there are sinless people walking around. No one will ever be Christ.
Can someone please tell me how these scriptures relate to the "security of the believer?"

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. -Romans 3:20 KJV

(Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. -NIV)

22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,i through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. -Romans 3:22-3:31

 

[smaller]

This is because what God says in His word as well as all resonable thought has been over ruled by your indoctrination.

I find Paul to be very precise in his deliveries.

Romans 8:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Let's see. Not death, life, angels, principalities, powers, things present, things future, OR ANY OTHER CREATURE shall be ABLE to make THAT SEPARATION.

You may examine yourSELF in trying to MAKE and PROMOTE that SEPARATION.

enjoy!

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[watchman F]

I find Paul to be very precise in his deliveries.

Romans 8:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Let's see. Not death, life, angels, principalities, powers, things present, things future, OR ANY OTHER CREATURE shall be ABLE to make THAT SEPARATION.

You may examine yourSELF in trying to MAKE and PROMOTE that SEPARATION.

enjoy!

smaller

#1 There is nothing in here that says anything about us not being able to fall away.
#2 It certainly does not contradict or concell out the 20 verse/passages that tell s we can fallaway.

 

[smaller]

#1 There is nothing in here that says anything about us not being able to fall away.

Separate BELIEVERS from the LOVE OF GOD in Christ any way you are led. Such 'creatures' are NOT able in any case of depiction and the scriptures they seek to burn fallen believers alive in fire forever ARE NOT AVAILABLE to them, thankfully.

#2 It certainly does not contradict or concell out the 20 verse/passages that tell s we can fallaway.

Those who DO fall away in this present life have not kept themselves in the LOVE of God. This does not mean God left them LOW and DRY.

Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Those who seek to SEPARATE OTHER believers from GODS LOVE on ANY basis have a very sick heart, imho, and the SCRIPTURE has reflected that within themselves and brings that OUT INTO THE OPEN for viewing by others, as they seek ANY CRACK they can find to DAMN OTHERS and 'justify' themselves in doing so.

s

 

[watchman F]

God loves us, that doesn't mean He isn't a just judge. Jesus loves and died even for the sinners that never accept Him. Does that mean they are not going to Hell? NO

 

[smaller]

God loves us, that doesn't mean He isn't a just judge.

Oh yes, very just. I believe the CONDEMNERS in the hearts of men, particularly those in BELIEVERS will be THE FIRST HEADS on the chopping block. Any 'so called' believer that seeks to SEPARATE another believer from the LOVE OF GOD is evidence of CONDEMNATION within those carriers. I do not even blame them for that working, knowing it is OF THE DARKNESS within their own heart that is NOT THEM that is speaking through them.

Jesus loves and died even for the sinners that never accept Him. Does that mean they are not going to Hell? NO

Believers are known only by their 'fruit.' The fruit of intentions to condemn believers to burn alive forever was not on the list of approved edibles the last time I checked.

For the record I believe that ALL VESSELS OF DISHONOUR will find themselves in the LAKE OF FIRE and be therein tortured FOREVER AND EVER. I also believe it is scripturally provable that ALL mankind have a vessel of DISHONOUR within themselves that is not them.

We are all SOWN in DISHONOUR according to Paul in 1 Cor. 15. And in weakness and corruption to boot.

Are any of you seeking condemnation upon others NOT sown in weakness, corruption, dishonour and in a natural body? IF NOT, then you MAY not be rising from those matters because that is what the RESURRECTION is RISEN from.

Did ANY of you ASCEND your ETERNAL JUDGMENT CHAIR and as a SINNER are now able to CONVEY an eternal destiny of BURNING ALIVE FOREVER to another believer?

lol. Thankfully such HEADY POWER was NOT conveyed into the HANDS OF SINNERS by scriptures.

enjoy!

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[Drew]

Our understandings of these workings will rightfully vary. All mankind dies in any case and they do so because of the presence of indwelling sin, yes, even believers.

Clearly, this is not what Paul is saying.

In the following statement by Paul, one cannot conclude that Paul is saying that the believer will die like everybody else. The reason: Paul says that if you live by the Spirit, you will, yes live.

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Of course Paul knows everybody dies. So he cannot be talking about mere physical death here - otherwise he is suggesting, through the "if you walk in the Spirit" clause, that some people will escape the fate of death.

So Paul clearly is not talking about physical death - he is talking about "eternal death". Apart from this solid argument, we see from earlier context that Paul is indeed thinking not of the mere physical death that all humans experience, he is talking about eternal life issues:

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

So one cannot argue that, in the original text I posted, Paul is talking about the physical death that even believers experience.

 

[Drew]

For the record I believe that ALL VESSELS OF DISHONOUR will find themselves in the LAKE OF FIRE and be therein tortured FOREVER AND EVER. I also believe it is scripturally provable that ALL mankind have a vessel of DISHONOUR within themselves that is not them.

I believe there is no scriptural basis for this interpretation of the "vessels of honour" image.

 

[smaller]

[/COLOR]
Clearly, this is not what Paul is saying.

In the following statement by Paul, one cannot conclude that Paul is saying that the believer will die like everybody else. The reason: Paul says that if you live by the Spirit, you will, yes live.

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Of course Paul knows everybody dies. So he cannot be talking about mere physical death here - otherwise he is suggesting, through the "if you walk in the Spirit" clause, that some people will escape the fate of death.

So Paul clearly is not talking about physical death - he is talking about "eternal death". Apart from this solid argument, we see from earlier context that Paul is indeed thinking not of the mere physical death that all humans experience, he is talking about eternal life issues:

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

So one cannot argue that, in the original text I posted, Paul is talking about the physical death that even believers experience.

You really need to read to the end of that chapter Drew and find that nothing can separate a believer from the Love of God.

And no, there is no mention of the 'second death' there for believers either. Death has many depictions in text. Even believers are to account themselves dead in the mortal body because of the presence of sin, to the which Paul refers.

The walking dead fill our streets. Believers can return to this state in this present life.

The intent of anyone who tries to separate believers from the Love of God in Christ is imo a first step back into that walking death. Sorry to tell ya.

s

 

[XTruth]

SMALLER,

I've given you MANY examples, but I'll make it easy with one single definite example of a man who was saved and is now, NO DOUBT, in hell!


Psalms 109:13
Example of Judas
"13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out."

The entire book of Psalms was written from about 450 to 1,500 B.C. This is a prophecy written about Judas Iscariot at least 481 years before he betrayed and rejected Jesus. It is further proof that names can be blotted out of God‟s book of life; though, the codices, the Septuagint and the Vulgate, read „his name,‟ instead of „their name,‟ referring to Judas alone. There is no reason implied why anyone else‟s name can‟t be blotted out who reject Christ after salvation, especially in view of Exodus 32:32-33 and Revelation 22:18-19. Refer to Luke 10:20 for the reasons why doctrine‟s against this belief hold no water. Here, we‟re going to prove that Judas was a justified and a saved man; therefore, having his name written with the righteous in the Lamb‟s book of life and that he died a condemned and a damned man; therefore, had his name blotted out of the book as said in Psalms 109:13. This alone should be proof that anyone can lose salvation. Unfortunately, it won‟t be.

Judas was once saved in his physical life as proved from a number of passages. Judas had to have had his name written in the book of life in order for it to be taken out (Ps.69:25-28; 109:13; Acts 1:20). Judas was a bishop of the church (Ps.109:8, Acts 1:20). He was a familiar friend of Jesus, a man Jesus trusted, and ate of Christ‟s bread (Ps.41:9). Jesus gave him power over demon spirits to cast them out and to heal every kind of sickness and disease (Mat.10:1-4, 8; Mk.3:14-15; 6:7; Lk.9:1-2). He was sent forth as a representative of Christ to all of Israel (Mat.10:5-6) and was part of the apostolic ministry (Acts 1:17, 25). He was called to preach (Mat.10:7) and had the peace of God to give to a home as all Christ‟s disciples had (Mat.10:13). Judas was an apostle, which means he was divinely called and sent forth by God to do His work (Lk.6:13). He was a sheep in the midst of wolves like all the disciples were (Mat.10:16) and had the Holy Spirit in him (Mat.10:19-20). As a disciple, Judas was ordained by Jesus to the ministry (Mk.3:14) and just as successful at it as the other disciples were (Lk.9:6, 10). He also had eternal life at one time by Jesus‟ own admission (Jn.17:2).

So Jesus considered Judas a familiar friend; the Hebrew word for familiar means, to confide in, as to be secure without fear. Many people teach that Judas had the devil in him since birth. Jesus wouldn‟t call an unsaved man controlled by the devil “My own familiar friend,†nor would he have confided in or ate bread with such a man. Those who were very intimate and personal friends always did breaking bread with another and partaking it together. Judas had the Holy Spirit and the power of Christ in him to heal and cast out demons. Can a kingdom divided against itself, stand? Would a man possessed by Satan cast out Satan (Mk.3:23-27)? Only saved men are given the Holy Spirit and authority over devils (Jn.3:5-6; Rom.8:9). Judas had been a righteous man, on fire for God before he gave way to sin and damned his soul.

Judas‟ soul was damned during the last days of his life and was never renewed again, which is possible to do (Heb.6:6). He fell by transgression from the ministry and apostleship (Acts 1:25). Satan had entered him at the end of Christ‟s ministry (Lk.22:3; Jn.13:2) and he became a thief (John 12:6). Judas became an adversary and betrayer of Christ (Jn.6:70-71) just as Peter would deny Christ (see Peter‟s fall in Mat.26:34, and in Mark 14:27-31 from this book). Neither had happened when first spoken of, so they were still innocent until acted out. Judas‟ salvation had been confirmed in John 17:2, while in John 17:12, Jesus states that all will be kept except the son of destruction in order that prophecy would be fulfilled.

How did Judas fall from something he never had (Acts 1:25)? That defeats the very definition. Some translations say „turn away‟ or „turned aside.‟ We turn from sin to follow Jesus (Jn.8:12). So it is very true that you can turn from Jesus to follow sin, lest Jesus took our free will in exchange for our salvation. It was also said that Satan entered him. This proves that Judas wasn‟t always under the manipulation of him or submitting to Satan‟s temptations to transgress against the righteousness of God through stealing, lying, and betrayal. Neither thief nor covetous, greedy person will ever inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-10). No one dieing a saved man will be condemned at judgment having Satan at his right hand (Ps.109:6-7). All Judas‟ labor was in vain, being counted as worthless (Ps.109:11; Phil.2:16). All his righteousness could not save him the day he betrayed Jesus and took his own life (Eze.3:20). He showed no mercy to Jesus and persecuted Him (Ps.109:16).

God is still merciful and just to forgive such a man as this if that man would return to Him. Judas never did. The KJV and RSV translation of Matthew 27:3 does say Judas repented himself after he saw that he was condemned. But the Greek word for „repent‟ in that verse only means he had deep regret (Turn to Matthew 27:3 for more information about that). Judas was a saved man after coming to Christ and walking with Him. Sin, which is the only thing that has ever condemned man, later condemned the same Judas. His name was in the book of life and was taken out just as anyone who sins against God (Ex.32:33). But let no one who is saved say they aren‟t condemned by „normal sin‟ because it was never against God. All sin is against God and all man‟s sin is betrayal to God by saying your own authority is greater than His.

Matthew 27:3
Example of Judas
"3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders."

Judas was an apostle of the gospel of God (Lk.6:13) and filled with the Holy Spirit (Mat.10:19-20). He also became a thief (Jn.12:6), betrayed Jesus (Mat.27:4), and committed suicide (Mat.27:5). Some say he was always filled with the devil, despite his three years of casting out devils. Therefore, destined to be condemned in order to fulfill prophecy (Ps.69:25-28; 109:6-20). God has never destined one for destruction, but chooses everyone to be saved (1 Tim.2:4). Even the Antichrist has a choice. It‟s just that God already knew their outcome before it happened(s). Others say that a man who was filled by the Spirit of God and walked with Jesus during His earthly ministry could never be damned to hell for eternity with Satan at his right hand (Ps.109:6-7). It rattles the ground from beneath their feet and boggles the minds of the eternal security believing saint‟s foundation of thinking. But their pride is too great and grip too strong to let go (Mat.5:5).

Judas never repented to God. He only had self regret as meant by the Greek word „metamellomai.‟ This word is never used of legitimate repentance. If Judas had a moral change in direction to act or think differently, then the Greek word „metanoeo‟ would have been used. An example of the Greek word „metanoeo‟ being used is when John the Baptist was yelling in the wilderness for people to repent (Mat.3:2), and the same „repent‟ Jesus commanded people to do from the very beginning of His earthly ministry (Mat.4:17). Sometimes, you have to look at the original word, whether in Greek or Hebrew, to be aware of the real meaning. Pastors aren‟t always trying to look smart by their word search studies. They‟re just looking for the authentic comprehension of the message God wishes to convey.

Not only is this proof of a genuine falling away, but also a warning to the reader that self regret isn‟t valid repentance. Judas knew what he did was messed up. He knew and it‟s in writing (Mat.27:4). But confessing sin and accepting your responsibility for it doesn‟t mean you‟ve been atoned for it by God. Judas had self-regret and confessed his sin before man. Unless you go before God, who alone pardons sin, you are not justified and held blameless.

 

[XTruth]

SMALLER,

I've given you MANY examples, but I'll make it easy with one single definite example of a man who was saved and is now, NO DOUBT, in hell!



ExampleS of Judas' LOST SALVATION AND CONCLUSIVELY IN HELL (Acts 1:25)

PART 2


Matthew 27:5 "5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."

As we‟ve read in Psalms109:13 and in Matthew 27:3, Judas was a righteous man at one point; winning souls for God‟s kingdom and destroying the expansion of hell. It‟s clear that he fell at one point, but it can‟t be assumed it was a sudden change of heart. It‟s evident that Satan‟s manipulation had been a work in progress. Jesus had called him a familiar friend and entrusted him as treasurer of His ministry, but in John 12:6 we see him being called a thief. A man, who‟s followed Jesus for over 3 years, whether physically or spiritually, wouldn‟t be weak enough to fall so fast by Satan‟s first hit. Judas had been tempted and deceived by Satan‟s influence; causing Judas‟ soul to be condemned in the day of his iniquity (Eze.33:13). As quick as Judas fell is as quick as God would have forgiven him if he humbled himself and asked for mercy; grace would have been given. Not only can we slip away from the truth by neglecting our salvation (Heb.2:1-3), but we can also be renewed again (Gal.4:19), lest God be unjust by restoring impartially (Eph.6:9).

It‟s been proven in Matthew 27:3 that Judas had not repented to God. But what if he had repented and it was just not recorded? This verse does say he threw down the reward of betrayal. What if the cryptographer just got the Greek word for repent mixed up? The rest of this verse should settle the argument about Judas‟ eternal destination. He killed himself. This was no act of redemption and war like Samson. Betraying the innocent blood of the Lord and most likely his only true friend tormented Judas. Judas regretted what he had done and had absolutely no self-forgiveness. Even if Judas had genuinely repented to God in verse 3, and suicide wasn‟t a factor that condemns souls (1 Cor.3:16-17), God cannot forgive anyone who won‟t forgive all sin against man and themselves (Mat.6:12-15; Lk.6:37).

John 17:12 "12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Many look at this verse and only see that Jesus keeps all that are His. They are blinded from the exception of the one, who was Judas. Jesus is specifically referring to the twelve hand picked disciples. If salvation can‟t be lost and God squeezes everyone in His hand so that none can jump ship, then why couldn‟t Judas be kept? Judas was certainly chosen of Jesus and anointed to the ministry and performing miracles just as the other eleven were. If Judas wasn‟t included among the saved, then language means nothing here. None was lost except for Judas who fell by transgression (Ps.41:9; 69:25-29; Acts 1:20-25). (Refer to Psalms 109:13 and Matthew 27:3 for the example of Judas).

The „son of perdition‟ reference of Judas is not the Antichrist in this verse as it is in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The Greeks and Hebrews called anyone who had a particular characteristic, destiny, or quality, the child of that thing. This can be seen twice in Ephesians 2:2-3 when believers who won‟t submit to God‟s authority are called „children of disobedience‟ and „the children of wrath.‟ Judas willfully sinned and became lost, it was not conducted by God that Scripture would be fulfilled. Prophecy was written because God knew what would happen. He wishes for none to be lost (2 Pt.3:9).

Lets examine the word „lost‟ in case anyone doubts how this word is used. The Greek word used for „lost,‟ which is said of Judas‟ eternal state, is „apollumi,‟ which means to destroy fully, to perish, or lose. This Greek word „apollumi‟ was translated „lose‟ in John 12:25: “He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal,†and „perish‟ in John 3:15-16: “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.†Based on this one verse alone, salvation is clearly up to each individual to keep or lose for himself.

Acts 1:25 "25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."

This verse carries on where John 17:12 left off. Judas was saved, but was not kept by Jesus, though that was not the desire of Jesus. Men are free moral agents, and when we rebel to the point of judgment, God is under obligation to enforce His promise of destruction for the wicked (Ex.34:7; Nah.1:2-3). “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law (1 Jn.3:4).†Judas transgressed the law of God and went to the place made for the transgressors when they die. He chose this place after he had been saved. He felt unworthy of eternal life by betraying Christ, though God would‟ve eagerly received Him; for he has received the most heinous of people (1 Cor.6:11). Judas would‟ve had his named immortalized in the foundations of the New Jerusalem, instead of being replaced by Matthias (Acts 1:26). “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb (Rev.21:14).†Transgressions of God‟s laws are always the way a saved individual becomes unsaved.

 

[Drew]

You really need to read to the end of that chapter Drew and find that nothing can separate a believer from the Love of God.

This is essentially an argument of the form: "I am going to ignore what Paul says one place because I beleive what he says somewhere else contradicts it". You need to engage the text I provided - it clearly discloses the possibility of loss for the believer.

And to be fair, I need to accomodate the stuff at the end of the chapter into the view that, yes, believers can indeed be lost. So here is the text with some context:

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord

I suggest that Paul is not asserting "once saved always saved" here. And for the two following reason: Paul has listed a whole of external forces that one might imagine could separate the believer from God - persecution, famine, sword, etc. And then he continues saying that in these same things we are more than conquerors. He is establishing a clear focus on external factors that his audience might thing could dislodge them from their relationship with God. True, he does the phrase "nothing will be able to separate us". And I am confident you will say this includes "our own decisions". Well, I suggest that the context is clearly one of external factors, so that the "nothing in all creation" phrase is intended by Paul to refer to this set of external factors, and that he is not contradicting his clearly warning from earlier in the chapter about the possibility of the believer falling away.

I remind you - you have essentially ignored the force of my argument about that text earlier in chapter 8. You really need to deal with it. At least I have provided an argument about your material. Perhaps you do not find it convincing. Fine. But what about the stuff earlier in the chapter. Please walk us though that text and explain to us how Paul is not raising the distinct possibility that a believer might be ultimately lost.

 

[XTruth]

WHO SHALL SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF CHRIST!!!!

Notes For Verse 35

[Who shall separate us from the love of Christ] Not who shall keep Christ from loving us, but who or what shall keep us from loving Him? This is the true idea, for the things listed here might affect people, but not Christ. If we will not permit them to affect our love for Christ, then we are safe from all danger of backsliding.


Notes For Verse 38

a [For I am persuaded] In Rom. 8:38-39 Paul explains that, in view of his doctrines before stated, he is personally persuaded that nothing will be able to separate him from the love he has for God and Christ.



b [principalities] Satanic powers of Eph. 2:2; 6:12.



Notes For Verse 39

[separate us from the love of God] One who lives and walks in the Spirit, will not be separated by any of the 17 things of Rom. 8:35-39 anymore than he will be moved to commit the 17 things of Gal. 5:19-21. The secret of victory and absolute assurance for the believer is to walk as taught in Rom. 6:14-23; 8:1-13; Gal. 5:16-26.

THIS IS BY NO MEANS TEACHING ETERNAL UNCONDITIONAL SECURITY!!!

 

[smaller]

--As quick as Judas fell is as quick as God would have forgiven him if he humbled himself and asked for mercy; grace would have been given. Not only can we slip away from the truth by neglecting our salvation (Heb.2:1-3), but we can also be renewed again (Gal.4:19), lest God be unjust by restoring impartially (Eph.6:9).

There was a vastly more important observation with Judas and with Peter from Jesus that was put into view in these matters. You do rightfully acknowledge the ENTRANCE OF SATAN into Judas. This fact can NOT be denied. At that point you may recognize TWO separate entities, Judas and Satan in ONE flesh man.

Jesus taught this PRINCIPLE and it is FACTUAL. That is: Where the Word is sown, SATAN does enter. Nearly all believers 'exempt themselves' from this reality every time they read those scriptures. This to me is the simplest form of the BLINDNESS that Satan imposes on those who claim exemptions to the fact. This same fact was also demonstrated in Peter.

The reality of what Jesus taught in these matters is CRYSTAL CLEAR.

All have sin and have sinned. Sin is OF THE DEVIL. Do the math here to see IF YOU ARE EXEMPT from a similar working in Judas or in Peter. The instant one goes down the NARROW PATH of WORD FACT they should HONESTLY FIND their every SIN connected to THE DEVIL. To me there is no avoiding of this fact and the TOTAL VALIDITY of Jesus' teachings in these matters.

NOW, if and when you DO acknowledge these matters 'personally' you may not be so QUICK to toss Judas to the eternal fires because when YOU DO, you are also inflicting that SAME MEASURE upon yourself. Your sins are not one whit different than Judas' sins, that being OF THE DEVIL.

Still wanna play the ETERNAL JUDGMENT GAME?

and...Judas DID repent: Matt. 27:3

It‟s been proven in Matthew 27:3 that Judas had not repented to God.

You can claim that, but it was recorded that he did.

"4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood."

Your view of this matter is not much far off from that of the Pharisees of the temple. They said, in essence, SO WHAT? Not 'my problem.' They took NO NOTE of the INNOCENT BLOOD that THEY also participated to SHED.

The reality of all of these matters is that the PASSION was A DIVINE EXERCISE in DETERMINISM that could not be swayed by ANY MAN'S FREE WILL. It was going to HAPPEN exactly as the scriptures foretold. Judas' betrayal was WRITTEN long before in happened in Psalm 41.

Yes, Satan did ENTER where The Word was sown in Judas and Satan performed like the dancing sin monkey that he is IN JUDAS. Few believers recognize the reality of this working in themselves. That is why they should not be judging other sinners to eternal condemnations.

The rest of this verse should settle the argument about Judas‟ eternal destination. He killed himself.

That settles nothing to your conclusion. The same SATAN that is up to his eyeballs in this matter could have just as easily led Judas to death. That same working IN MEN led Jesus to HIS DEATH. How many more are you going to FRY ALIVE FOREVER on the basis of DIVINE ACTIONS in the PASSION?

Jesus forgave the men who drove the nails into Him because they were IGNORANT of the facts of the operations of the EVIL ONE in them.

--suicide wasn‟t a factor that condemns souls (1 Cor.3:16-17),
God cannot forgive anyone who won‟t forgive all sin against man and themselves (Mat.6:12-15; Lk.6:37).

Using 1 Cor. 3 to condemn suicide now? lol. The ONE WHO DESTROYS TEMPLES IS THE MAN OF SIN who SITS THEREIN. God WILL destroy THAT LAWLESS ONE.

And if you believed your own bolded statement above, you MIGHT be the first one in line to FORGIVE JUDAS if you don't want YOUR SINS counted against YOU.

As you so measure to OTHERS, so your own FATE is sealed. I believe if the LAWLESS ONE is within a person that LAWLESS ONE speaks in them and through them in NOT forgiving ALL MEN of ALL their sins and in that the JUDGMENT OF THE LAWLESS ONE IS in fact SEALED and SET.

John 17:12 "12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." Many look at this verse and only see that Jesus keeps all that are His. They are blinded from the exception of the one, who was Judas.

And that is you only seeing Judas. Paul brings the SON OF PERDITION back into view in 2 Thes. 3 and WHO IS IT? Not Judas, but SATAN. What is it you don't get?

Jesus is specifically referring to the twelve hand picked disciples. If salvation can‟t be lost and God squeezes everyone in His hand so that none can jump ship, then why couldn‟t Judas be kept?

Every last one of the disciples HAD SIN and THAT SIN is just as much connected to the DEVIL as the sin of Judas. Any singling of Judas out is FALSE understanding. Judas played his role exactly as the scriptures foretold and could NOT have done anything else. God DOES control the EVIL action in men by 'allowing' and 'using' that impetus to HIS SOLE DESIRES.

God in Christ will TAKE GREAT PLEASURE in the ELIMINATION of SATAN when the TIME comes.

Judas was certainly chosen of Jesus and anointed to the ministry and performing miracles just as the other eleven were. If Judas wasn‟t included among the saved, then language means nothing here. None was lost except for Judas who fell by transgression (Ps.41:9; 69:25-29; Acts 1:20-25). (Refer to Psalms 109:13 and Matthew 27:3 for the example of Judas).

And I consider your view nothing more than a desire to DAMN another man for his sins and EXCUSE your own. I consider that action a working of darkness in such people and I DON'T BLAME THEM for it. I know where it comes from. Satan in the heart.

I do NOT believe a man becomes TEMPORARILY SINLESS after repentances and confessions. The presence of indwelling sin IS in ALL mankind and that working does NOT depart or change what it factually does, whether OVERT or COVERT.

The „son of perdition‟ reference of Judas is not the Antichrist

There are many depictions of the workings of Satan in mankind in the O.T. Many are called the 'sons of belial.' Even David was termed that. Most 'slaves' don't KNOW that they are NOT ALONE in these matters.

The point in any of these matters of JUDGMENTS is that the DEVIL is assuredly in the MIX. Any man that seeks to DENY that fact to themselves and CONDEMN others apart from that fact is a man under that deception and they don't realize it. There ARE two separate entities in play on these matters. To focus on the man only is FALSE understanding.

believers who won‟t submit to God‟s authority are called „children of disobedience‟ and „the children of wrath.‟ Judas willfully sinned and became lost, it was not conducted by God that Scripture would be fulfilled. Prophecy was written because God knew what would happen. He wishes for none to be lost (2 Pt.3:9).

And the fact remains that NO SCRIPTURE depicts JUDAS as 'eternally lost.' That presentation is one of SURMISE that brings other issues to the table. All of Israel were taught in the O.T. to be GODS CHILDREN. Are you so willing to say that God does-> (insert your favorite form of eternal damnation) to HIS CHILDREN.

Judas was such.

This Greek word „apollumi‟ was translated „lose‟ in John 12:25: “He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal,” and „perish‟ in John 3:15-16: “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Based on this one verse alone, salvation is clearly up to each individual to keep or lose for himself.

There is a working in ALL of us that we are to both HATE and LOSE, the latter loss being ETERNAL. Every WORD of God that brings ETERNAL CONDEMNATION will be applied to THE WORKERS OF INIQUITY that are IN ALL MEN.

Even those who appear to be believers in Matt. 7:22-24 WILL hear those Words of God in Christ. IF you see the MAN OF LAWLESSNESS who is linked to EVERY SIN you may also see WHO is being spoken to.

Acts 1:25 "25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."

This verse carries on where John 17:12 left off. Judas was saved, but was not kept by Jesus, though that was not the desire of Jesus. Men are free moral agents,

No 'free moral agent' has 'freed themselves' from the FACTS OF SIN and the connections thereof to THE DEVIL. It is quite pointless to rule out either God or the DEVIL in relationships to the WILL of the individual. Therefore MORAL AGENCY is nothing but a FALSE PAINT applied to the realities of indwelling sin, which is SIN regardless of EXTERNAL ACTIONS and is CONNECTED to the DEVIL.

No believer is going to make THE DEVIL in his connections to SIN change into obedience or belief and ALL HAVE SIN as a present tense occupancy of the flesh.

The BEST moral agent in the world STILL HAS SIN, which same is OF THE DEVIL. Any 'righteousness' exhibited is FILTHY RAG because of that FACT of attachment.

s

 

[smaller]

This is essentially an argument of the form: "I am going to ignore what Paul says one place because I beleive what he says somewhere else contradicts it". You need to engage the text I provided - it clearly discloses the possibility of loss for the believer.

Paul speaks nothing of eternal loss of salvation to the believer in the Romans 8 citing. Those who fall back into the flesh are IN DEATH in THIS PRESENT LIFE.

And to be fair, I need to accomodate the stuff at the end of the chapter into the view that, yes, believers can indeed be lost. So here is the text with some context:
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord

I suggest that Paul is not asserting "once saved always saved" here.

It is quite apparent that NOTHING can separate a believer from the Love of God in Christ. You can imply anything YOU want to from there.

And for the two following reason: Paul has listed a whole of external forces that one might imagine could separate the believer from God - persecution, famine, sword, etc. And then he continues saying that in these same things we are more than conquerors. He is establishing a clear focus on external factors that his audience might thing could dislodge them from their relationship with God. True, he does the phrase "nothing will be able to separate us". And I am confident you will say this includes "our own decisions". Well, I suggest that the context is clearly one of external factors, so that the "nothing in all creation" phrase is intended by Paul to refer to this set of external factors, and that he is not contradicting his clearly warning from earlier in the chapter about the possibility of the believer falling away.

And as stated repeatedly, believers assuredly fall in this present life. This still has not separated them from the LOVE OF GOD in Christ.

I remind you - you have essentially ignored the force of my argument about that text earlier in chapter 8. You really need to deal with it.

and you simply need to show where ETERNAL CONDEMNATION of ANY BELIEVER is depicted. I certainly DON'T see that in that same text because IT ISN'T THERE.

At least I have provided an argument about your material. Perhaps you do not find it convincing. Fine. But what about the stuff earlier in the chapter. Please walk us though that text and explain to us how Paul is not raising the distinct possibility that a believer might be ultimately lost.

Here is a PICTURE of PRESENT DEATH of the believers:

1 John 4:20
If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

I would submit that ANYONE who seeks to THROW a fallen believer to eternal torture cannot exhibit MORE HATRED to their BROTHER than that.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Danus]

I know we aren't all theologians but shouldn't it be universal knowledge that Jesus died for our sins and we must have faith in him first and foremost? The answers are in the Bible. I wish all Christians could have a simple, agreed upon knowledge. It gets too confusing sometimes.

I don't believe there are sinless people walking around. No one will ever be Christ.
Can someone please tell me how these scriptures relate to the "security of the believer?"

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. -Romans 3:20 KJV

(Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. -NIV)

22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,i through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. -Romans 3:22-3:31

Well Said Fembot.

To me the danger of thinking you can loose your salvation (Once accepted) lies with thinking then, that you can keep it. To do so would mean some sort of effort on your part beyond the faith we are called to have.

Here is a quote from Adrian Rogers on this.

"If you think you're going to get to heaven by your good works, I
guarantee you will always wonder if you've done enough. You will not
have a "know-so" salvation. You will have a "hope-so" salvation. Rather
than standing up straight in confidence like an exclamation point, you
will be bent over and wondering like a question mark. That is, until you
understand that it's all by grace. Suppose everybody who wanted to be
saved had to run around the block. Some can't run. What if you had to
read a chapter in the Bible to be saved? Some can't read. But there is
one thing that can make the promise sure, and that is grace." - Adrian Rogers