watchman F
Member
The sad thing is smaller no matter what the Bible says or does not say you will not believe the truth becasuse you have already hardened your heart.
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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security of the believer
- Thread starter littlelight
- Start date
watchman F
Member
2nd Peter 2
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
It says here that those that turn from their salvation are worse off than those that have never believed. Those that have never believed are on their way to Hell. How can those that have falling away be better of than non believers i they are not also going to Hell. In other words, someone that is on their way to Heaven cannot be worse off than someone one their way to Hell.
smaller
Member
Again, what you 'think' you see there in that text is simply NOT there. One can assuredly FALL in this present life into a WORSE STATE than prior to their belief, even a WORSE blinding by SATAN than an unbeliever. Satan is a viral infectious adversary. But that text speaks exactly ZERO to a believer 'eternally losing' their salvation. That simply IS NOT THERE.
But you see that is just a fantastic LEAP of logic that is not in the text. The falling itself is what is being spoken of as to condition PRESENT. This still speaks of NO ETERNAL LOSS of salvation for a believer.
I know many unbelievers who are much kinder and loving than many fallen christians. Who is the worse? They or the fallen believer? What does this have to do with losing eternal salvation? Nothing. You are implying that since an unbeliever goes to hell, then so does the fallen believer, but that equation is NOT in that text. It is YOUR fabrication.
I would consider many fallen believers fall into greater states of PRESENT APOSTASY that are far worse conditions than unbelievers. This still does not equate to eternal loss for believers and NO such equation is presented as such other than by IMAGINATION. The direct scriptural support for BELIEVERS going to the LAKE OF FIRE in reality DOES NOT EXIST.
In other words it is a mere assertion, even an IMAGINATION, without FACT of support.
enjoy!
smaller
Danus
Member
Yep...I agreed. I'm not sure it's worth the argument. Those who seek will find the higher context I imagine, but who knows.
smaller
Member
IF you are presenting that people who believe in OSAS are without direct scriptural support, you are assuredly wrong. I am not a newcomer to the charades of other believers who justify themselves and their state and condemn other believers.
Paul specifically DENIES any such adherents of 'eternal security lost' right here. Yet (supposed believers) outright VIOLATE this admonition every time they touch this topic:
Romans 2:1
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
You see I might see the very speakers doing the CONDEMNING of other believers are already UNDER THE same CONDEMNATION they are seeking to BRING upon OTHERS.
I do not view such speakers as eternally lost. They are temporary CAPTIVES of the workings of CONDEMNATION that is BOILING within themselves that has risen to the surface of their hearts for VIEWING.
s
watchman F
Member
You have proven this statement correct smaller, by your denial of the obvious. Someone headed for Heaven, cannot be worse off than someone headed for Hell.
ProphetMark
Member
What happened to Solomon? Did he lose his salvation?
watchman F
Member
Not only do those that believe in OSAS not have scriptural support they MUST deny, dismiss, and ignore large portions of scripture to hold to thier false belief.
Paul not only did not believe in OSAS he knew that he himself could possibly fall away.
1st Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Not suprising that you a believer in false doctrine would so pitifully use such a scripture as this out of order. Paul were writting to Jews who were condemning Gentiles in Rome for doing things they themselves were doing. I do nt believe in OSAS, not do I dismiss scripture to continue believing false doctrine. Therefore this scripturwe has absolutely nothing to do with me at all.
smaller
Member
Oh, I would consider a member of the clergy who molests children is in far worse shape than an unbeliever. I still do not believe that believer LOSES their eternal salvation. They have become a VICTIM of the lowest order of Satan.
God in Christ will FREE them from their bondage of SIN. He paid that price for them. This IS the Gospel Message.
I do not view any such FALLEN ONE as alone in these matters. Satan is surely UPON them and will bear the brunt of such DIVINE JUDGMENTS for taking that captive in this present life, as bad as they are. They are TOOLS of the DEVIL in this present life.
God in Christ came TO DESTROY the 'works' of the DEVIL. Not to destroy BLINDED CAPTIVES of same.
enjoy!
s
smaller
Member
I dismiss NO scripture. What you are seeking however does not exist. IF it did you'd have had it on the table by now.
There are many discards in this present life. This again does not equate to 'eternal loss.' You are seeking to insert what is factually NOT THERE or AVAILABLE except by your imaginations.
One can ASSUREDLY FALL in this present life.
Oh please. Believers fall into the snares of Satan in this present life CONSTANTLY and in various degrees. This still does NOT equate to 'eternal loss' of their salvation. The reality is that is a mere assertion that is not contained in the text. You only THINK you see it. But the FACT IS it is NOT THERE to be seen except by impositions that do not exist.
No, Paul was speaking to everyone who reads that scripture and addresses O MAN whoever you are that DO SUCH THINGS. You in fact DO SUCH THINGS. I do not even BLAME YOU for that, as I know when darkness speaks.
Do you realize that within the entirety of legitimate Orthodoxy they have not RULED ONE SINGLE NAMED PERSON into HELL? And they have NOT DONE SO because there is NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT of such visions. They LEAVE THAT PLACE for GOD ALONE and that is WHERE it belongs and WILL STAY until the FINAL EVENT. In these matters they ALSO leave room for OVERWHELMING and DIVINE GRACE to prevail and in fact PRAY FOR ALL MANKIND continually in every service regardless of being alive or passed on.
I respect this practice.
The fact is that you do heap condemnation upon other believers when you claim their eternal loss. You have ascended into a seat that is NOT YOURS TO CLAIM.
You have the presence of indwelling sin just as anyone else does. No sinner has a right to throw stones at another sinner. Jesus was clear on this matter as well, and spoke such to PHARISEES who 'thought' they were in 'good standings' to do so.
The fact is their sins were no better than anyone else's.
enjoy!
s
Danus
Member
.
I'm confused by your contradictory statements ....
First and foremost, you need to grasp a right understanding of "elect".
Does it not mean those chosen by God for salvation ??
In short ....
All elected ones = Confirmed Saved
But not all who claim to be saved = Elected ones
Hope my equations are right ! ... Does this make sense ?
Tina I'm sure it will get twisted and crazy in here, but I hope you can find my reply. Here is my take on The elect.
Some think it means those that God specifically chooses, some think only Israel, but most would agree that the elect are believers. (Period)
God choses those who choose him rather than God saying; "I'll take you, you, and you. the rest are on your own."...Here is a quick quote form a reference I just found.
"In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus said, the angels “will gather his electâ€. The word “elect†is translated from the Greek word “eklektos.†The Greek word “eklektos†is recorded 24 times in the New Testament manuscripts and it is translated either "the elect" or "the chosen." So, who are the elect that Jesus is referring to in the Olivet Discourse?
Some believe "the elect" is Israel others believe "the elect" is all believers.
Whenever we have a question regarding what God means, we should always ask God for the answer. We do this by searching His Word to see what else He says on the topic. So, let’s examine Scripture to see what God says about His elect."
Source Last Days Mystery - Who are the elect
Source Last Days Mystery - Who are the elect
littlelight
Member
Thank you Nathanial ,
I finaly see a verse and it used to give me problems and kept me wavering between being able to lose salvation or eternal security. But first some of the many verses that support one being able to lose it.
John 15:6
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire,
NKJV
Gal 5:2-4
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
NKJV
In Jn 15 :6 Jesus is talking to his disiciples. To be cast out as a branch means that you had to have been part of the vine in the 1st place. Since Jesus is the vine to have been part of the vine meant that you were saved. To be cut off means that you are no longer a part of the branch and no longer saved.
In Gal 5 the reason that they became circumcised was they didn't think that Jesus had done all the work. i.e. they no longer believed. If you fall from grace and become estranged from Jesus as in Gal 5. it means that you have lost your salvation. And the "become" estranged and "fallen" from grace meant that you once had it.
In your post you had something about God having compassion on whom he has compassion. I don't see that that supports your conclusion that one is eternally saved. I have no problem with God having compassion on some and not having compassion on others. Your conclussion is that those on whom he has no compassion on never come to him and receive salvation. I say some of them do ask for and receive salvation and then for whatever reason they quit believing and then lose what they had received.
Now as for the 1 passage that gave me problems:
John 6:37-40
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:43-44
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
NKJV
when Jesus walked amoungst the Hebrews not all could see him as the Son of God:
Rom 11:26
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
NKJV
God blinded most of the Jews so that prophecy would be fulfilled. The Jews had to reject Jesus so God could bring salvation to the gentiles. The ones that God drew to Jesus are the ones that He chose to let see and believe.
Now for not losing any:
John 18:8-9
8 Jesus answered, "I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way," 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."
NKJV
Jesus lost none of those that the Father drew because He had to fulfill prophcy. There could only be 1 traitor and he was not drawn by the Father.
Is it still true that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him?:
John 12:32
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
NKJV
Acts 9:5
Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."
NKJV
There it is. God the father no longer is the only one drawing people to Jesus. Jesus draws people to himself. And nowhere does it say that all Jesus draw are saved. Some are drawn to Him and are saved eternally, some are drawn and reject Him, others accept him and are saved then fall away. They had salvation for awhile and couldn't hold on. He still has compassion on whom He has compassion, and doesn't on others. All the elect are saved and all others are lost. But some had salvation and let it slip from their grasp.
Are there any other verses that you know that support eternal security?
I finaly see a verse and it used to give me problems and kept me wavering between being able to lose salvation or eternal security. But first some of the many verses that support one being able to lose it.
John 15:6
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire,
NKJV
Gal 5:2-4
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
NKJV
In Jn 15 :6 Jesus is talking to his disiciples. To be cast out as a branch means that you had to have been part of the vine in the 1st place. Since Jesus is the vine to have been part of the vine meant that you were saved. To be cut off means that you are no longer a part of the branch and no longer saved.
In Gal 5 the reason that they became circumcised was they didn't think that Jesus had done all the work. i.e. they no longer believed. If you fall from grace and become estranged from Jesus as in Gal 5. it means that you have lost your salvation. And the "become" estranged and "fallen" from grace meant that you once had it.
In your post you had something about God having compassion on whom he has compassion. I don't see that that supports your conclusion that one is eternally saved. I have no problem with God having compassion on some and not having compassion on others. Your conclussion is that those on whom he has no compassion on never come to him and receive salvation. I say some of them do ask for and receive salvation and then for whatever reason they quit believing and then lose what they had received.
Now as for the 1 passage that gave me problems:
John 6:37-40
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:43-44
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
NKJV
when Jesus walked amoungst the Hebrews not all could see him as the Son of God:
Rom 11:26
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
NKJV
God blinded most of the Jews so that prophecy would be fulfilled. The Jews had to reject Jesus so God could bring salvation to the gentiles. The ones that God drew to Jesus are the ones that He chose to let see and believe.
Now for not losing any:
John 18:8-9
8 Jesus answered, "I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way," 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."
NKJV
Jesus lost none of those that the Father drew because He had to fulfill prophcy. There could only be 1 traitor and he was not drawn by the Father.
Is it still true that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him?:
John 12:32
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
NKJV
Acts 9:5
Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."
NKJV
There it is. God the father no longer is the only one drawing people to Jesus. Jesus draws people to himself. And nowhere does it say that all Jesus draw are saved. Some are drawn to Him and are saved eternally, some are drawn and reject Him, others accept him and are saved then fall away. They had salvation for awhile and couldn't hold on. He still has compassion on whom He has compassion, and doesn't on others. All the elect are saved and all others are lost. But some had salvation and let it slip from their grasp.
Are there any other verses that you know that support eternal security?
Drew
Member
First, let me heartily commend you for taking Paul at his word here in Romans 11 - God did indeed "blind" most Jews so that God could bring salvation to Gentiles.
Many decide that they know better than Paul and resist this idea of the "blinding" of the Jews (many Jews, that is) has some connection to salvation for the whole world. But it is clear that this is indeed what Paul is saying.
However, I do not see the connection to the eternal security issue.
littlelight
Member
Drew I was explaining why Jn 6:37-40,43-44 was true but then had to prove why it is no longer valid. If someone cites scripture I either have to accept their defination of what it means or prove by other scripture what it means to me , which, I hope is the truth.
Tina, I'm sorry that I threw a new term at you. The elect=true beleivers. thanks for the reply.
Tina, I'm sorry that I threw a new term at you. The elect=true beleivers. thanks for the reply.
Watchman was correct in his reply...
Romans 1:19-32
Example of apostates
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for. God hath shewed it unto them 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Apostates were saved, but fell away and departed from the faith. As you can see by verse 21, they knew God at one time. The Greek word for „knew‟ is „ginosko,‟ which means they knew by experience; they were aware of; could feel; had knowledge; perceived; and understood (Jn.1:48; Eph.5:5; 1 Jn.5:20). They knew God, but their reasoning had substituted His glory for foolish concepts, making the creation greater than the Creator. They had grown cold, like Demas (Col.4:14; 2 Tim.4:10; Ph‟m.24), losing the fear of the Lord required to assure you continue in Him and keep your righteousness (Lk.12:5; 1 Pt.4:17-18; Heb.10:26-31). The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction (Pro.1:7). They had become fools and their hearts grew in darkness instead of in the knowledge and grace of our Lord.
Verse 24 gives the result of apostasy, which in this case was sexual immorality of uncleanness and sex perversions. God permitted this to happen. It‟s like in 1 Corinthians 5 where Paul told the church to give the sinner over to Satan for the destruction of the body that it may lead him back to the Lord for the saving of his soul. Uncleanness is the scriptural term for homosexuality and other sex perversions of men and women (2 Cor.12:21; Gal.5:19; Eph.4:19; 5:3; Col.3:5; 1 Thes.4:7; 2 Pt.2:10).
Because of the apostasy of verses 21-25, God gave those reprobates up to passions of disgrace and embarrassment. The women chose women for sexual relations, as did the men who chose men out of unnatural lust. They were indecent and received back in full the retribution of their rootlessness (Mat.13:3; Jn.15:6), which is their wickedly wrong actions that only lead to eternal death no matter who you believe in (Jas.2:17-19).
Notice in verse 28 that God gave them over to a reprobate mind. The word „reprobate‟ was translated from the Greek word „adokimos.‟ This is the same word used in 2 Corinthians 13:5-7; 2 Timothy 3:8; Titus 1:16, translated „rejected‟ in Hebrews 6:8, and „castaway‟ in 1 Corinthians 9:27. What house can have two masters? If you aren‟t following Christ‟s ways of living according to the Spirit, and are living according to the desires of the flesh instead, then you are against God and have become His enemy (Mat.12:25-30; Jas.4:4; 2 Jn.9).
The next four verses (29-32) have been referenced throughout the entirety of this book, usually going hand in hand with theses verses: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3-7; Colossians 3:5-10; and Revelation 21:8. There are many more, but all these verses commonly group lists of sins together from lying to murdering, and then inform you that anyone doing any of these ungodly acts will either incur God‟s judgment, not inherit His kingdom, or be thrown into the lake of fire. That‟s just three different ways to say the same thing. Funny how all these warnings of continued sin have been written to the church, yet the church concludes those judgments to be upon unbelievers only.
All these sins are either the result of apostasy or apostasy is the result of sin. Both are true. By sinning, you can still go to church every Sunday, hold the belief that Jesus is the only way to receive eternal life (Jn.14:6; Acts 4:12), and be equal to an apostate in God‟s eyes. The only difference between someone who never received the saving grace that comes only from Jesus and someone who neglected their salvation is that the one who had eternal life promised to them at one point will have it worse in hell (2 Pt.2:20-22). Verse 32 says these apostates knew the judgment of God and knew that those who commit such acts were worthy of death. This is the final result of continued apostasy; knowing your fate, but lacking the fear of God‟s judgment.
The following are some other passages to reference in this study that I feel strong enough to write out in full to assure they‟re read. They all show clear statements of the result of turning from the grace one had once received: “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak (Heb.6:4-9).â€
“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Heb.10:26-31).â€
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire (2 Pt.2:2022).â€
Romans 2:1-3
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Ungodliness is inexcusable! You‟ve just read the example of the countless lost salvations by the apostates who had known God but turned the Truth into a lie for themselves. They desired the lust of the flesh and took pleasure in those doing the same, even though they knew those who commit such things are worthy of death. In verse 1, Paul is speaking about the Jews who always took the disposition to justify themselves and condemn others, even though they were guilty of some of the same things God condemns from Romans 1:29-32. So they are liable to God‟s just judgment on sin as much as the Gentiles. This is exactly what Christian‟s do who still sin. They tell the unbelievers and the people of other faiths that they are guilty by their sins; yet, they continually do the same things they know God judges.
The “carnal Christian†won‟t forgive his ex-girlfriend, yet the judgment of God is against those who haven‟t forgiven everyone (Mat.6:12, 14-15; Mk.11:25-26; 1 Jn.2:9-11; 3:14-15). The “sinning Christian†fornicates with his girlfriend, yet the judgment of God is against those who are sexually immoral (1 Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:3-7). The “I‟m only human Christian†lies to his parents all day long, yet the judgment of God is against those who are liars (Rev.21:8, 27; 22:15). “And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God (Rom.2:3)?â€
smaller
Member
When any believer falls in this present life into the SNARE OF SATAN it is no longer JUST that believer in view in these matters, but the ENSLAVER.
Scripture DOES SPEAK to that ENSLAVER and does so speak to same IN MAN.
When the CONDEMNER SPEAKS it is a SIGN of THE ENSLAVER upon that MAN and scripture DOES condemn the ENSLAVER, therefore the CONDEMNATION is applicable, but NOT TO THE SLAVE of same.
Jesus came to FREE captives. If a man says I HAVE NO SIN, that man is under the deception of THE LIAR and the LIAR speaks from within that man.
Biblical principle 101- Where The Word is sown, SATAN enters the hearts to SIN by STEALING GODS WORDS, particularly the WORDS applied to Satan IN man.
The point remains that there is NO BELIEVER in the entirety of the N.T. that is shown to have ETERNALLY LOST their salvation.
Not ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE. As such the position is not upheld in fact. And particularly NOT SO when the ENSLAVER is in view upon those so blinded.
TWO positions can be spoken to ONE MAN and BOTH positions can be FULLY TRUE.
Example?
When Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to SATAN, Jesus was in fact speaking to SATAN in PETER and condemned SATAN, not PETER.
Put that fact into your equations and you MAY SEE FACTUALLY and with far more accuracy as to WHOM is being addressed.
ALL have SIN. Sin is securely connected to the DEVIL by 1 John 3:8. There is no getting the DEVIL OUT of the SIN equations, and particularly not SO when the DEVIL takes captives AT his WILL.
God allows the predations of SATAN in this present life to FILL UP the measures of SIN for Satan's impending WRATH and EXECUTION.
enjoy!
smaller
Drew
Member
As has already been shown, this is not a valid argument.
There is no statement in the New Testament that Paul ever ate a banana.
In fact, there is no statement in the New Testament that any of the saints ate a banana.
On your logic, this would lead us to conclude that no saint ever ate a banana.
You seem to expect that God would give the New Testament writers knowledge of "what happens after" death to each and every saint. That way we would know if some saint indeed lost their salvation. Do you really think such a "list" is to be expected?