security of the believer

[littlelight]

or as some say once saved always saved. I have never believed this dortrine and

after considerable study have come to the conclusion that a person can lose

salvation. Here is 2 of many verses to support that conclusion:

Rom 11:19-21
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either
NKJV
Rev 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere,
NKJV

Most verses that people use to support eternal security are valid if we have an

unconditional covenant. As the verse in Revelation states we are commanded to

perserve. And in Romans we stand by faith. And since we can be cut off it implies

that we have to continue in faith. It is not an unconditional covenant and the

condition is we must preserve and continue in belief.

Lets not bog this down with can you go in and out or other small details. Lets

just stick with can it happen or not.

 

[smaller]

Lets not bog this down with can you go in and out or other small details. Lets

just stick with can it happen or not.

Perhaps you can provide a single named example of a believer in the N.T. who eternally lost their salvation as an example of such a matter? There were perhaps several hundred thousand believers that any of the Apostles could have singled out for this as an example.

Show ONE.

s

 

[Drew]

or as some say once saved always saved. I have never believed this dortrine and

after considerable study have come to the conclusion that a person can lose

salvation. Here is 2 of many verses to support that conclusion:

Rom 11:19-21
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either
NKJV

I agree - this text is directed to believing Gentiles in the church at Rome. It does seem to suggest that those believers can indeed fall away.

And there is also this text from Romans 8, again clearly directed at believers:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Note the "if" conditionals - it appears that one can indeed be denied "life", depending on how one lives.

 

[Drew]

Perhaps you can provide a single named example of a believer in the N.T. who eternally lost their salvation as an example of such a matter? There were perhaps several hundred thousand believers that any of the Apostles could have singled out for this as an example.

Show ONE.

s

An obviously rigged challenge that cannot be answered. The implication here is that since the Bible does not have some sort of "list" of who "lost their salvation", that one cannot therefore lose one's salvation.

 

[littlelight]

thank you drew i appreciate the support.

After my long search I need to see if my conclusion holds up to scripture. i have read through the N.T. several times after coming to my conclusion but sometimes people only see what they want to. I do not want to be one of those. I need some rebuttal with scripture to back it up. I want to stick to losing salvation due to non-belief. If my conclusion holds up to that then other conditions of the new covenant can be discussed.

 

[smaller]

An obviously rigged challenge that cannot be answered. The implication here is that since the Bible does not have some sort of "list" of who "lost their salvation", that one cannot therefore lose one's salvation.

There were certainly enough believers around to name an example of this so called 'fact.'

The real fact is that there is NO SUCH PRESENTATION in the entirety of the New Testament, period.

Yes, FALL in this life back into the snare of Satan is THERE, but this in NO WAY speaks to ETERNAL LOSS of salvation. The latter view is NOT available anywhere as A FACT and that is just a FACT.

I might also add that SCARE TACTICS are favored by preachers who have bills to pay and FEAR is a great motivator.

s

 

[littlelight]

smaller I understand and have an opinion that people cannot lose salvation. But untill you back up your opnion with scripture it is just an opinion. Back it up with scripture and it becomes a belief. I stated why I believe that salvation can be lost and cited scripture. I do not believe that the new covenant is unconditional and cited a command from Jesus to that effect. Where are scriptures that indicate otherwise? Where does it explicitly imply that we are eternally saved when we accept Jesus?

 

[Drew]

There were certainly enough believers around to name an example of this so called 'fact.'

The real fact is that there is NO SUCH PRESENTATION in the entirety of the New Testament, period.

Your line of argument is simply not valid.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - the fact that no Bible author is granted some mysterious insight into who makes it to Heaven, and could therefore tell us that some saint we expect to see there has apparently fallen away, is hardly an argument that people don't fall away.

Yes, FALL in this life back into the snare of Satan is THERE, but this in NO WAY speaks to ETERNAL LOSS of salvation. The latter view is NOT available anywhere as A FACT and that is just a FACT.

I can think of one example which clearly shows that believers can indeed fall away. Here is the text:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

This statement is clearly directed to believers - check the overall context. And what does Paul tell believers? He tells them that there is a possiblity that they will die. And from earlier in the chapter, it is clear that the issue here is eternal destiny.

 

[Theofilus]

There were certainly enough believers around to name an example of this so called 'fact.'

The real fact is that there is NO SUCH PRESENTATION in the entirety of the New Testament, period.

Yes, FALL in this life back into the snare of Satan is THERE, but this in NO WAY speaks to ETERNAL LOSS of salvation. The latter view is NOT available anywhere as A FACT and that is just a FACT.

There is not a single mention in the New Testament of anyone urinating. Is that because it never happened? No, of course not. The reason it isn't mentioned is because everyone knew about, everyone did it and there was no conflict about it. There was no need to adress it. (Btw, before anyone accuses me of making up complete nonsense, Jews today actually have rules in the Talmud about how to urinate. To avoid splatter, you must urinate sitting down and you may not face Jerusalem. If the toilet is facing Jerusalem, you must sit sideways on it.)

The reason there is no list of people who had eternally lost their salvation is that there was no need for such a list. Everybody was in agreement about it. The epistles only address those things that were in doubt or were causing conflicts. Eating meat offered to idols is mentioned because people didn't agree about it. Some said it was ok to eat meat that had been offered to idols and others said that such meat was unclean and that we shouldn't eat it. Paul mentioned it to settle that dispute. I woudn't have been mentiond if there hadn't been a dispute about it.

But although the issue isn't discussed in detail and no lists are given, it is mentioned when talking about other things. For example:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb. 10:26-31 NIV)​

 

[watchman F]

Perhaps you can provide a single named example of a believer in the N.T. who eternally lost their salvation as an example of such a matter? There were perhaps several hundred thousand believers that any of the Apostles could have singled out for this as an example.

Show ONE.

s

Judas Iscariot

 

[Nathan]

You cannot LOOSE your salvation :D.....wait a minute...you can loose your salvation :D...got it? Ok. Now...you cannot loose Salvation :D

Hope this straightens things out....

 

[Tina]

.

A true believer in Christ should have no fear or reason to lose salvation. By "true" believer, I mean one who does not keep on sinning as though regeneration, sanctification and repentence never happened and does not exit !


1 John 3:1-10

How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

 

[littlelight]

"A true believer in Christ should have no fear or reason to lose salvation. By "true" believer, I mean one who does not keep on sinning as though regeneration, sanctification and repentence never happened and does not exit !"

Tina I got lost at the end of your statement. But I agree with you that the elect are eternally saved. However, nowhere does it say that the elect are the only ones that come to a saving knowledge of Jesus. I believe that people other than the elect have been saved , given everything that the elect recieve at salvation, then later fall away.

If you find a verse that implies "only the elect" come to a saving knowledge of Jesus then I might be persuaded.

 

[Nathan]

Tina I got lost at the end of your statement. But I agree with you that the elect are eternally saved. However, nowhere does it say that the elect are the only ones that come to a saving knowledge of Jesus. I believe that people other than the elect have been saved , given everything that the elect recieve at salvation, then later fall away.

If you find a verse that implies "only the elect" come to a saving knowledge of Jesus then I might be persuaded.

Ro 9:10-11 "And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call..."


Just so this is not taken out of context....


Ro 9:14-16 "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.†16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."


Jn 6:43-45 “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—"

 

[Adstar]

I do not believe in the actual statement loosing salvation, it implies either mislaying it or some external entity taking it from you.

I do believe how ever that one can reject what they once embraced.

OSAS is one of them ear tickler doctrines that most people embrace because they like what it says. similar to pre-tribulation rapture. Sounds good, but.

2 Peter 2
15They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man's voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
17These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit,"[5] and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

Here we see Peter clearly declare that those that have escaped from those that live in error and the polutants of this world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ have once again been entangled in the polutants of the world, they have once again fallen into error. He said "it has happened to them"

Read this parable of the sower from Jesus

"Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. 5Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. 7And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 8But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9He who has ears to hear, let him hear

Now for His explanation of the parable.

"Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty

So in the parable 3 of the 4 receive the word, that is they accept the faith. But two of them loose it because of worldly things so you can accept salvation through the Messiah and loose it through your decision.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Danus]

or as some say once saved always saved. I have never believed this dortrine and

after considerable study have come to the conclusion that a person can lose

salvation. Here is 2 of many verses to support that conclusion:

Rom 11:19-21
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either
NKJV
Rev 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere,
NKJV

Most verses that people use to support eternal security are valid if we have an

unconditional covenant. As the verse in Revelation states we are commanded to

perserve. And in Romans we stand by faith. And since we can be cut off it implies

that we have to continue in faith. It is not an unconditional covenant and the

condition is we must preserve and continue in belief.

Lets not bog this down with can you go in and out or other small details. Lets

just stick with can it happen or not.

How do these verses you quoted support your argument? Not seeing where any of those verses have anything to do with loosing ones salvation.

We are saved by grace (We don't deserve it) through faith (We believe). What meaning to you place behind the word "Persevere"? What does that mean to you?

Is it like the Journey song "Don't stop Believing"?

 

[XTruth]

Perhaps you can provide a single named example of a believer in the N.T. who eternally lost their salvation as an example of such a matter? There were perhaps several hundred thousand believers that any of the Apostles could have singled out for this as an example.

Show ONE.

s

There are many writings on the billions of lost salvations from New Testament proof alone. The copy and paste below come from the online book here: "Once Saved, Always Saved" Destroying A Doctrine Of Demons -  Salvation Book

The book is written from Gen-Rev., so the passages next to the examples are easily found. bacically used the references instead of the page numbers.

18. Judas…………..………………………………………… Matthew 27:3
19. Peter‟s First Lost Salvation……………..………………. Mark 14:27-31
20. The 11 Disciples…….…………………………………… Mark 14:50
21. Lot‟s Wife………….………………………...………….. Luke 17:30-35
22. Many Disciples…………………………………………... John 6:60-69
23. Ananias and Sapphira……………………………………. Acts 5:1-11
24. The Apostates…….……………………………………….Romans 1:19-32
25. The Adamites…………………………………………….. Romans 5:12-21
26. Israel……………………………………………………… 1 Corinthians 10:1-12
27. Peter‟s Second Lost Salvation…………………………… Galatians 2:11-14
28. Barnabas…………………………………………………. Galatians 2:11-14
29. The Galatians…………………………………………….. Galatians 5:1-7
30. Demas……………………………………………………. Colossians 4:14
31. Hymenaeus and Alexander……………………………… 1 Timothy 1:19-20
32. The Many Young Widows…………………………….. 1 Timothy 5:11-15
33. The Many Others………………………………………… 1 Timothy 6:6-10
34. The Many Others………………………………………… 1 Timothy 6:17-21
35. Hymenaeus and Philetus………………………………… 2 Timothy 2:17-18
36. The Demons……………………………………………… James 2:19
37. The Holy Angels……………………………..…………. 2 Peter 2:4
9
38. The Apostates…………………………………………… 2 Peter 2:20-22
39. Israel…………………………………………………….. Jude 5
40. The Holy Angels…………………………………………. Jude 6
41. Sodom and Gomorrah…………………………………… Jude 7
42. The Seven Churches……………………………………... Revelation 2:1 – 3:22
43. The Church Of Ephesus…………………………………. Revelations 2:1-7
44. The Church Of Smyrna………………………………….. Revelation 2:8-11
45. The Church Of Pergamos………………………………... Revelation 2:12-17
46. The Church Of Thyatira…………………………………. Revelation 2:18-29
47. The Church Of Sardis……………………………………. Revelation 3:1-6
48. The Church Of Philadelphia……………………………... Revelation 3:7-13
49. The Church Of Laodicea………………………………… Revelation 3:14-22
50. Satan and His Angels…………………………………… Revelation 12:7-9

 

[Tina]

.

Tina I got lost at the end of your statement. But I agree with you that the elect are eternally saved. However, nowhere does it say that the elect are the only ones that come to a saving knowledge of Jesus. I believe that people other than the elect have been saved , given everything that the elect recieve at salvation, then later fall away.

If you find a verse that implies "only the elect" come to a saving knowledge of Jesus then I might be persuaded.

I'm confused by your contradictory statements ....

First and foremost, you need to grasp a right understanding of "elect".
Does it not mean those chosen by God for salvation ??


In short ....


All elected ones = Confirmed Saved

But not all who claim to be saved = Elected ones



Hope my equations are right ! ... Does this make sense ?

 

[smaller]

smaller I understand and have an opinion that people cannot lose salvation. But untill you back up your opnion with scripture it is just an opinion.

Uh, no, the logic here my friend is that your assertion is presented NOWHERE in the text of the New Testament, period. I am quite comfortable with NOT accepting your opinion because that does NOT EXIST in the text.

NO believer is named and shown AS AN EXAMPLE of your assertion of opinion. That is just a hardline FACT, be it as it may that you may not like to hear this fact.

Back it up with scripture and it becomes a belief.

OSAS is written throughout the text of the N.T. God does not abandon or forsake us, period. You may believe He does, but that is just an opinion.

I do not deny that BLINDNESS of SATAN can return upon the minds and hearts of ANY believer in this present life and to varying degrees. This does not equate to eternal abandonment.

I stated why I believe that salvation can be lost and cited scripture.

You have cited exactly ZERO scripture that shows a believer eternally losing his salvation because of the simple fact that there is NO SUCH SCRIPTURE TO CITE.

I do not believe that the new covenant is unconditional and cited a command from Jesus to that effect. Where are scriptures that indicate otherwise? Where does it explicitly imply that we are eternally saved when we accept Jesus?

IF you know this general topic matter it is like many topics. There will be scripture sets on both sides of the issue. Few understandings find factual HARMONY when they land on one side or another.

In the case of believers eternal loss of salvation, there factually remains not ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that applies this so called FACT to 'a specific believer.' This is just a simple fact. Without an example, the position you hold is logically void.

One can fall in this present life. That does NOT equate to permanent BLINDNESS and an eternal life of being burned alive forever (or insert your favorite form of eternal punishment, annihilation or separation.)

enjoy!

smaller

 

[smaller]

There are many writings on the billions of lost salvations from New Testament proof alone. The copy and paste below come from the online book here: "Once Saved, Always Saved" Destroying A Doctrine Of Demons - *Salvation Book

The book is written from Gen-Rev., so the passages next to the examples are easily found. bacically used the references instead of the page numbers.

18. Judas…………..………………………………………… Matthew 27:3
19. Peter‟s First Lost Salvation……………..………………. Mark 14:27-31
20. The 11 Disciples…….…………………………………… Mark 14:50
21. Lot‟s Wife………….………………………...………….. Luke 17:30-35
22. Many Disciples…………………………………………... John 6:60-69
23. Ananias and Sapphira……………………………………. Acts 5:1-11
24. The Apostates…….……………………………………….Romans 1:19-32
25. The Adamites…………………………………………….. Romans 5:12-21
26. Israel……………………………………………………… 1 Corinthians 10:1-12
27. Peter‟s Second Lost Salvation…………………………… Galatians 2:11-14
28. Barnabas…………………………………………………. Galatians 2:11-14
29. The Galatians…………………………………………….. Galatians 5:1-7
30. Demas……………………………………………………. Colossians 4:14
31. Hymenaeus and Alexander……………………………… 1 Timothy 1:19-20
32. The Many Young Widows…………………………….. 1 Timothy 5:11-15
33. The Many Others………………………………………… 1 Timothy 6:6-10
34. The Many Others………………………………………… 1 Timothy 6:17-21
35. Hymenaeus and Philetus………………………………… 2 Timothy 2:17-18
36. The Demons……………………………………………… James 2:19
37. The Holy Angels……………………………..…………. 2 Peter 2:4
9
38. The Apostates…………………………………………… 2 Peter 2:20-22
39. Israel…………………………………………………….. Jude 5
40. The Holy Angels…………………………………………. Jude 6
41. Sodom and Gomorrah…………………………………… Jude 7
42. The Seven Churches……………………………………... Revelation 2:1 – 3:22
43. The Church Of Ephesus…………………………………. Revelations 2:1-7
44. The Church Of Smyrna………………………………….. Revelation 2:8-11
45. The Church Of Pergamos………………………………... Revelation 2:12-17
46. The Church Of Thyatira…………………………………. Revelation 2:18-29
47. The Church Of Sardis……………………………………. Revelation 3:1-6
48. The Church Of Philadelphia……………………………... Revelation 3:7-13
49. The Church Of Laodicea………………………………… Revelation 3:14-22
50. Satan and His Angels…………………………………… Revelation 12:7-9

There are exactly ZERO indications in ALL and ANY of those scriptures that says a 'believer' lost their salvation 'eternally.' Zero. The position that you 'think' those scriptures speak to do NOT equate to 'eternal permanent and absolute' loss. Not a one of them.

Devils, no issues on that matter. They ARE assuredly heading to the Lake of Fire by many examples. But we are discussing BELIEVERS here in this thread.

The fact remains that there is not ONE SINGLE BELIEVER with this supposed eternal loss fate foisted upon them for an example.

Then there is the additional problem that IF a believer falls back UNDER THE WILL of Satan in this present life, that one is if anything A FALLEN COMMRADE of FAITH, not an eternal LOOSER. God is not about to FRY fallen warriors, but WILL in fact SAVE them regardless because there IS AN ENEMY upon them to VIEW for judgments that IS NOT THEM, but the DEVIL(s.)

No fallen believer should be viewed AS ALONE in their blinded state. There is A CAUSE that is upon their MIND and HEART that is NOT THEM.

enjoy!

smaller