Self-Examination; The Almost Christian

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And how could Satan have stolen away the word before Adam and Eve had received the word? Nevermind that Satan isn't even introduced as a player until afterwards. I honestly don't think your speculation squares with the passage in question.

Well, obviously you are an 'ex' christian of some sort as you seem to have some understandings of the text.

Jesus, in Mark 4:15, tells us how the deal went down in the Garden.

Well, the law is not anything if there is no God. This was my point all along.

It doesn't take a spiritual genius or somebody with Jesus painted across their lips to understand that there is law and lawlessness.

Scriptures give some 'in'sights on how these matters work on the inside of the box of man.

I was finished, but this comment caught me out. Who is attempting to hide what?

As it pertains to this thread, self examinations will reveal internal lawlessness.

To avoid that fact or cover it up with religious cloaking devices is HIDING or EXCUSING the fact of it.

Not saying you are in that vein. But most 'religious' people are assuredly in that vein.

s

 

[The Unbeliever]

Well, obviously you are an 'ex' christian of some sort as you seem to have some understandings of the text.

Jesus, in Mark 4:15, tells us how the deal went down in the Garden.

No, Genesis 1-3 tells us how the deal went down in the Garden. They may fit the prototype described in Mark 4:15, but that doesn't mean there could have been sin before God had spoken regarding the tree.

It doesn't take a spiritual genius or somebody with Jesus painted across their lips to understand that there is law and lawlessness.

If there is law, then there can be lawlessness. That was never in question.

Not saying you are in that vein. But most 'religious' people are assuredly in that vein.

That wasn't my concern, but I admit to feeling uncomfortable with such blanket statements.

 

[Davies]

Good morning Unbeliever,

I don't say there is no God, merely that I am not aware of there being any God. The color of the earth and various forms of life on it do not tell me there is a God, and I'm not ignoring my conscience. In fact, it is my conscience that compels my unbelief. Anything else would be dishonest.

"I can't ignore creation, my conscience, and what the Bible says." - Davies; Good, I would never tell you to do otherwise. - Unbeliever

Because you say that creation doesn't tell you God exists, your unbelief then tells God He is a liar, and shows that you are ignoring all three: creation, conscience, and the Bible. If you violate the conscience long enough, a person can normalize any behavior.
1 John 1:10

New King James Version (NKJV)

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


Romans 1:18-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

How can I keep the first commandment when I don't believe in God?

Even if you did believe in God, you would find you couldn't keep the first Commandment.

Actually, I don't feel like I have that big a problem with the last five. I don't murder, adulterate, or steal, and I generally don't lie or covet. My problems are more in the area of anger and a lack of empathy. I do think it is a good idea to remind myself of these so that I can strive for improvement. But again, without God there is no sin, only wrong and perhaps evil. I know I am often wrong, and evil on occasion. But it doesn't matter how bad I am, if there is no God, then there is no point in coming to the cross and having faith in Jesus.

You may not feel the Commandments are a problem, but they are. You say you have problems with anger and a lack of empathy (that nailed me), but Jesus said if you are angry with your brother without cause or say 'You fool!', you'd be in danger of hell fire, Matthew 5:22. The Bible teaches us that if we hate our brother, then we are murderers, 1 John 3:15. God not only looks on the outside, what we do, but He also looks on the inside, what we think. If you look at a woman to lust after her, then you are an adulterer, Matthew 5:28. If you have stolen or lied in your entire life, those sins need to be accounted.

What does Jesus dieing on the cross tell you? If Jesus is who He said He is, then the cross is your indictment. He was innocent, yet even while we were yet sinners, Jesus gave Himself over to the wrath of the Father to pay for our sins (your sin debt is paid for). In order to deny this, you have to say that Jesus was a liar, or you have to say that His disciples were liars despite all but one of them were killed because they would not recant and say, 'Jesus did not rise from the dead.'

We often mistake the patience of God to mean He doesn't exist, He's not concerned with us, or that He may even endorse our sin. One of the reasons why God allows sin is because He wants all men to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[a] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.


What I think you'll find, Unbeliever, if you refuse to believe in the God of the Bible, you will go through life looking for things that will give you temporary satisfaction, and because that is not what life is about, our satisfaction, you will be missing out on the blessings, mercy, and forgiveness that God would give you.

- Davies

 

[The Unbeliever]

Because you say that creation doesn't tell you God exists, your unbelief then tells God He is a liar, and shows that you are ignoring all three: creation, conscience, and the Bible. If you violate the conscience long enough, a person can normalize any behavior.

Yes, I am aware of your theological commitments to this position. I also realize that what I am saying violates Romans chapter 1. And yet I cannot say otherwise without lying to you. Surely you would not wish me to be a liar, for then I certainly could not honor God.

Even if you did believe in God, you would find you couldn't keep the first Commandment.

I do not claim otherwise. I often repented of my sins when I was a believer.

You may not feel the Commandments are a problem, but they are. You say you have problems with anger and a lack of empathy (that nailed me), but Jesus said if you are angry with your brother without cause or say 'You fool!', you'd be in danger of hell fire, Matthew 5:22. The Bible teaches us that if we hate our brother, then we are murderers, 1 John 3:15. God not only looks on the outside, what we do, but He also looks on the inside, what we think. If you look at a woman to lust after her, then you are an adulterer, Matthew 5:28. If you have stolen or lied in your entire life, those sins need to be accounted.

I am aware of those verses. Anger is not hate. And regardless of that, without God there is no sin, there is only wrong and evil. This has been my contention the entire time. I have yet to see you really address it.

What does Jesus dieing on the cross tell you? If Jesus is who He said He is, then the cross is your indictment. He was innocent, yet even while we were yet sinners, Jesus gave Himself over to the wrath of the Father to pay for our sins (your sin debt is paid for). In order to deny this, you have to say that Jesus was a liar, or you have to say that His disciples were liars despite all but one of them were killed because they would not recant and say, 'Jesus did not rise from the dead.'

I don't believe the Bible's account of Jesus. It would be odd beyond belief if I were to believe it and yet not believe in God. There is of course a third option. Someone other than Jesus' immediate disciples wrote the Gospels.

We often mistake the patience of God to mean He doesn't exist, He's not concerned with us, or that He may even endorse our sin. One of the reasons why God allows sin is because He wants all men to come to repentance.

My unbelief has nothing to do with sin or any desire to sin.

What I think you'll find, Unbeliever, if you refuse to believe in the God of the Bible, you will go through life looking for things that will give you temporary satisfaction, and because that is not what life is about, our satisfaction, you will be missing out on the blessings, mercy, and forgiveness that God would give you.

I can compare my life when I believed to my life now. I do not feel that I have lost the things you claim I have, and there are certain benefits I have gained. Overall, it seems to me to be a neutral exchange, with the primary negative occurrence being degrees of ostracization and social stigma from Christians.

 

[Davies]

My unbelief has nothing to do with sin or any desire to sin.

I can compare my life when I believed to my life now. I do not feel that I have lost the things you claim I have, and there are certain benefits I have gained. Overall, it seems to me to be a neutral exchange, with the primary negative occurrence being degrees of ostracization and social stigma from Christians.

Good afternoon Unbeliever,

A question, if you were a believer before, then you would you admit you were wrong before? And if you were wrong before, what's to say that you are not wrong now? What standard of right and wrong are you going by, your feelings? I'm not sure how you are perceiving ostracism, but nothing would make Satan happier than keeping you from reading the Bible and putting your faith in Jesus.

Your unbelief has nothing to do with sin?
Hebrews 3:12

New King James Version (NKJV)

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;


- Davies

 

[Webb]

What is the difference (if any) between evil and sin?

 

[The Unbeliever]

Evil is a moral wrong. Sin is a transgression of divine law. The two can be congruent, but this would be accidental to their nature as you can also have one without the other. Perhaps I should say that sin is a subset of evil, since it does seem to me that you cannot have non-evil sin, but you can have non-sinful evil.

 

[The Unbeliever]

A question, if you were a believer before, then you would you admit you were wrong before? And if you were wrong before, what's to say that you are not wrong now? What standard of right and wrong are you going by, your feelings? I'm not sure how you are perceiving ostracism, but nothing would make Satan happier than keeping you from reading the Bible and putting your faith in Jesus.

Yes, I believe I was wrong before. There is nothing to say that I am not wrong now other than my incognizance of the fact. This is ultimately grounded in both reason and feeling. I do not believe it is otherwise with anyone else. Do you believe the Bible while simultaneously believing it rationally and intuitively wrong?

Satan has not kept me from reading the Bible. I have read it, although not so much as of late. This is mostly because it holds no power for me. When I read it, all I can hear are the various theological positions and arguments that can be made of the passage. God no longer lives in its words, at least not for me.

Your unbelief has nothing to do with sin?
Hebrews 3:12

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

Yes, my unbelief had nothing to do with sin. I was not motivated by the desire to not believe or to depart from God. My motivation had nothing to do with sin. Perhaps, as you and the Bible accuse, it is a sin, but sin was not the reason for my unbelief.

 

[Webb]

I do not agree there is such as "non-sinful evil".

 

[The Unbeliever]

I do not agree there is such as "non-sinful evil".

That does not tell me much. Could you expand on that for me. If there were no God, tormenting children to death would still be evil. But there could be no sin because of the absence of God. This is my understanding. How do you understand the situation?

 

[Webb]

"And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." Gen.1:31

 

[The Unbeliever]

"And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." Gen.1:31

OK. I don't believe that has anything to do with the possibility of non-sinful evil, but perhaps I have missed the connection. Could you spell it out for me in a little more detail?

 

[Webb]

What God made was "good", "very good". Evil is an oposite of good, as is sin. If there is a difference between evil and sin, what is it? If no sin till after law, then would there be no evil as well? Or to put it in another way, if what God made was "very good" whence came evil?

 

[The Unbeliever]

What God made was "good", "very good". Evil is an oposite of good, as is sin. If there is a difference between evil and sin, what is it? If no sin till after law, then would there be no evil as well? Or to put it in another way, if what God made was "very good" whence came evil?

My point was that you could have evil without God, but not sin. This in itself is a distinction. Also, you can be evil even in the absence of law. Even if there were no law against torturing infants, it would still be evil.

 

[Webb]

I fail to see such reasoning.

 

[The Unbeliever]

I fail to see such reasoning.

Perhaps if you asked a question, I could understand where you are not understanding and better explain what it is I am saying. As it is, your response is too terse for me to properly deduce what you are finding problematic.

 

[Davies]

My point was that you could have evil without God, but not sin. This in itself is a distinction. Also, you can be evil even in the absence of law. Even if there were no law against torturing infants, it would still be evil.

Hi Unbeliever,

If God doesn't define what evil is, then who does? Couldn't you think, because every society has some form of standard, it speaks of a Creator. What you might think is evil in your world may be acceptable behavior in another society. Evil, without being defined by God, would be relative at best. I don't think you'll find any Christians eating that pie.

- Davies

 

[Webb]

I did ask a question. I previously noted that after creation God said all was not simply "good" but "very good". Evil is the opposite of good (so teaches the scripture), therefore my question was and remains, when did evil originate? I fail to see how you separate evil from sin.

 

[Davies]

Good morning,

There is nothing quite like examining yourself in the light Scripture. Though Matthew Mead is just a man, I find his examination of self to be probing, touching a lot of sore spots, so, I'd like to reiterate what Matthew prefaced this book with, and that is, this should not be an occasion to stumble the Christian. If we find ourselves falling short of God's standards based on His word, then we know we are under grace which provides all the motivation we need to repent of any known sin.

"Though God calleth all those that shall be saved, yet all shall not be saved whom God calleth: every man under the Gospel is called of God in one sense or other, but yet every man under the Gospel shall no therefore be saved. "For many are called, but few chosen."-(Matt. xx.16.)

... Every man that lives under the preaching of the Gospel, is thus called; God calls every soul of you to repent, and lay a sure foundation for heaven and salvation, by the word you hear this day.-(See Matt. xxii. 9.)

1. Many under the call of God, come to Christ, but are not converted to Christ, have nothing of grace and life of Christ; such as he, who when Christ sent out his servants to bid guests unto the marriage, came in at the call of Christ, but yet "had not on the wedding garment," that is, had none of the grace and righteousness of Jesus Christ.

2. Many that are under the call of the Gospel, come to Christ, and yet afterwards fall away from Christ, as Judas and Demas did; it is said when Christ preached a doctrine that his disciples did not like, that "from that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."-(John vi. 66.)

Now then, if many are under this external call of God only, if many that come to Christ, are not converted to Christ, but fall away from Christ; then a man may be called of God, and yet be but almost a Christian." Matthew Mead, The Almost Christian...

The passage refers to putting on the righteousness of Jesus. There in lies the difference of being saved and not being saved. A person who has put on the righteousness of Jesus values what the Bible says as truth. If you can't say you value the Bible as truth, then you have a right to question whether or not you are a Christian. If you don't trust one thing in the Bible, how do you trust something else in the Bible? Or, do we make ourselves to be God when we determine what is right and wrong, building on the foundation of our own righteousness? 'I'd be captain of me own ship, and if ye Christians weren't makin so many waves, I'd be smooth sailin!'

- Davies

 

[The Unbeliever]

Hi Unbeliever,

If God doesn't define what evil is, then who does?

Humans are social animals. Morality is defined within this social context. Evil would be anything that harms the integrity of this bond. If you steal or lie, you do active damage to the trust that is the necessary foundation to social interaction. Murder likewise creates fear and doubt.

Couldn't you think, because every society has some form of standard, it speaks of a Creator.

I think it sufficient that every society is composed of the same species and lives within a narrow spectrum of environmental constraints.

What you might think is evil in your world may be acceptable behavior in another society. Evil, without being defined by God, would be relative at best. I don't think you'll find any Christians eating that pie.

No, the constraints of a functional society, limited variations in environmental factors, and common physiological makeup make defining evil a non-arbitrary task. There are behaviors that clearly work and behaviors that clearly do not. Between these there can be variation depending on socio-environmental factors, but this range is sufficiently narrow that it allows for confluences and compromise. Recognizing this variation and what also clearly lies outside of it, at least allows us to delineate with a fair amount of certainty these outlier behaviors as evil.