Self-Examination; The Almost Christian

[jasoncran]

romans 7 for the first line. the last part isnt in the bible

 

[BornAgain]

And it also says, "I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died."

Romans 7:9 (KJV)
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

As the sinful feeling lay dormant apart from the law, he felt as if he were alive. He had no sense of sin or of its condemnation. [He was alive in all the freedom of an untroubled conscience. Possibly he refers to the undisturbed feeling of legal righteousness, as in the rich young ruler, who, when brought face to face with the commandment, could say: "All these things have I observed: what lack I yet?" Matt 19:20. This seems to have been the case with Paul, who says that he was, "as touching the righteousness which is in the law, found blameless." Phil 3:6. In this sense he had kept the law, as every pious Pharisee did.]

but when the commandment came, sin revived,—In this state—"apart from the law," the specific commandment already mentioned, "Thou shalt not covet" (verse 7) he had not till this moment realized that it required a heart service as well as an outward service. Suddenly sin came to life, resuming the active power which properly belongs to it.

and I died;—He felt he was dead in sin. [This evidently points to some definite period in his experience full of painful recollections. Just when or how Paul first began to feel the power of the law is not revealed, but in a man so strong and earnest as he was we may discern the intense effort to satisfy by outward observance the demands of a holy and heart-searching law. When he became "a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious" 1 Tim 1:13, a misguided zeal for God must have goaded him into fury by the sting of an uneasy conscience and the terrors of the law.

Some desperate struggle certainly is suggested by the words of the Lord when he said to him on that ever-memorable day, as he was approaching Damascus, bent on the persecution of the saints: While the outward strife and inward fury were raging, the sudden "light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about" him, and the accusing voice, flashed conviction upon his soul and subdued his strong, proud will.

That was the moment of the struggle upon which he now reflected, and came to realize that instead of serving God he was obnoxious to him, so that for "three days he was without sight, and did neither eat nor drink." At length, Ananias, sent by the Lord, came to him with "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" and commanded him to be baptized and wash away his sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16. Up to this time he was, in the Jewish sense, under the law, but really "apart from" it. It had not yet come to his heart and understanding. When the heart-searching law broken in upon his apprehension, he not only saw that he had broken it, but the sin which he had not felt before arose in active rebellion against that law, and he died.

 

[BornAgain]

jasoncran, thank you.

 

[jasoncran]

your welcome

 

[smaller]

Sin was in the world before the Law.

Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The Law aroused and still arouses sin to reveal itself as internal lawlessness, as Paul shows for himself in Romans 7:

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The Law is spiritual in this regards, showing and proving beyond any doubt, the existence of lawlessness within, just as it did with Paul, for any that are led to be honest with the findings of the Law in contention with that factual working.

You can even read a speed limit sign, and the instant your mind says 'go faster' it is in fact internal resistance working against that law, making one 'think' about violations in breaking same, even thinking that if you can escape getting caught and get by with it, say in a remote and sparsely traveled area, you will be even more inclined to break same.

That's sin.

The law of adultery is particularly effective internally with males of the species.

s

 

[Webb]

Unbeliever--But the "One Lawgiver who is able to save and to destroy" gave the first law in the garden saying "in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die" which disobedience to that law brought sin and death.

 

[The Unbeliever]

But none of these prove that there is sin without a lawgiver and a law. You have only argued what I have already granted, that there is indeed sin in the presence of a lawgiver.

Please consider what I am saying in light of my first post in this thread. I am making a narrower argument than many of you seem to suspect of me.

 

[Webb]

I took it back to the garden, the begining.

 

[The Unbeliever]

Sin was in the world before the Law.

Are you sure? You seem to contradict this later in your post.

Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The Law aroused and still arouses sin to reveal itself as internal lawlessness, as Paul shows for himself in Romans 7:

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The Law is spiritual in this regards, showing and proving beyond any doubt, the existence of lawlessness within, just as it did with Paul, for any that are led to be honest with the findings of the Law in contention with that factual working.

You speak of lawlessness, and yet what is lawlessness without a law? Can you be lawless without law?

You can even read a speed limit sign, and the instant your mind says 'go faster' it is in fact internal resistance working against that law, making one 'think' about violations in breaking same, even thinking that if you can escape getting caught and get by with it, say in a remote and sparsely traveled area, you will be even more inclined to break same.

That's sin.

Again, this seems to advance my own argument. You present me with a law, in this case a speed limit. Of course once I am confronted with such a law, I can either obey or not, and so lawlessness is possible. But if I am told that there are no laws governing this road, how can I possibly rebel against what does not exist?

 

[The Unbeliever]

I took it back to the garden, the begining.

How does this change what I have said about sin and a lawgiver? Your own example has a law, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it". Right from the beginning sin needed a law in order to manifest itself. Lawlessness can only take shape within the framework of law.

 

[Davies]

But it also says, "apart from the law, sin lies dead". Without a lawgiver, there can be no law, and so no sin.

Hi Unbeliever,

I would say you are right. If there is no God, then we can define sin to be anything we want or dismiss it altogether. If you can stand on this green earth with its variety of life on land and sea, not to mention the complexity of our own bodies, plus ignnoring what our conscience tells us, and say there is no God, well, I can understand your point of view. I can't ignore creation, my conscience, and what the Bible says. Try to keep the Ten Commandments on face value, then try to keep the Ten Commandments based on how Jesus defined them, and you will prove what Paul taught regarding sin. Two things could happen: you can be self-righteous and say I keep the law of God, or you will confess you are not able to keep them. Even better, if you have a hard time recognizing God, then take the last five Commandments and try to keep them. You will begin to see the depth of sin that is in you and that is in me, and everyone else. This is actually the means to coming to the cross and having faith in Jesus. You wouldn't be above this would you?

- Davies

 

[smaller]

Are you sure? You seem to contradict this later in your post.

Yeah, very sure. And likewise yes, sin was in the world right from the beginning, activated to the fore by the first command, do not eat.

If we took Jesus statement of fact we can even 'see' how it happened. Mark 4:15 is how it went down the moment Gods blessings were bestowed on Adam. What happened to Adam is as Jesus says. And it still happens to this day.

You speak of lawlessness, and yet what is lawlessness without a law? Can you be lawless without law?

It is quite impossibly too late to have any of Gods Words of Law taken out of our present system. The Law was given in progressive fashions for exactly the opposite intentions, to make sin utterly sinful in preparation for final judgments. To observe our present world is to see that preparation transpire daily, also in progressive fashions. The same operational principle is seen in the members of the churches who seek to burn other believers alive in fire. That is also a working of sin in the members, evidenced by their produce.

Again, this seems to advance my own argument. You present me with a law, in this case a speed limit. Of course once I am confronted with such a law, I can either obey or not, and so lawlessness is possible. But if I am told that there are no laws governing this road, how can I possibly rebel against what does not exist?

The law is not about you, but about the resisting powers unseen that operate in this present world. Whether you look at the law or not is irrelevant. The dynamic was already set in place long long ago by Gods Words in contentions with the opposers.

It can not be stopped. The end result will be this:

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

If you have a mouth and are in the world, the fact is upon all. There is no avoiding it, particularly post salvation and as a believer, deeply embedded in Gods Words daily. For those who take their factual medicine, they will be shown other matters in these arenas. For rejectors, they will remain blinded to what is being shown because they are not standing truthfully before our Maker in Godly fear and with a 'whole heart.'

In the heart not all is good. God does not like it when we hide from Him.

When God called to Adam in the Garden, do you really think God did not know where Adam was? In reality He was calling for His son, not the party that had captured him inside and 'hid' him. You will hear the accuser speaking from the lips of Adam in that engagement with God. And from the woman as well. Which is also why they were expelled from His Presence. God does not tolerate lying children well.

Most of the hoo haa one will hear from believers is how they try to stop sinning. The real issues are how that operation works in the first place. When this matter is seen the attempts at hiding are laughable.

s

 

[Davies]

Heeding His warning concerning facing God at the judgment, Jesus now presents a picture of two groups of hearers. He has dealt with, two classes of teachers—false prophets and true prophets—and now gives warning to the two classes of hearers.

The picture is not of two men deliberately selecting foundations upon which to build a house, but it contrasts one who carefully chooses and prepares his foundation with the one who builds carelessly. This is more strongly brought out by Luke 6:48 when he says, "Who digged and went deep, and laid a foundation upon the rock." The one who hears the words of Jesus and obeys them is "likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock"; this means those who do the will of God (verse 21) are like the man who carefully prepared the foundation and built his house.

He who hears the words of Jesus, and does them, is safe against all the evil influences of the world, safe forever; he who simply hears, and does not do, is doomed to fail of salvation, and be crushed in utter destruction.

Hi BornAgain,

When I read Matthew 7:22-23, I see those who depended on thier good deeds to justify them. You would have to admit, if you were able to perform miracles and cast out demons, you would be led to believe you were in a right relationship with God. I think this might have been true of Judas Iscariot. I think Matthew 7:22-23 shows that if you don't trust in Jesus alone outside of your good deeds, though they may be of an extraordinary kind, then you will find that your faith was not in the Lord, but in yourself; you built on the sand, not on the Rock. Those who have faith in Jesus will be faithful, and they will obey the Lord, but those who have done many good deeds, and are trusting in themselves, the waves of judgment will come just as they did in Noah's day, and they will "be crushed in utter destruction."

- Davies

 

[smaller]

Hi BornAgain,

When I read Matthew 7:22-23, I see those who depended on thier good deeds to justify them. You would have to admit, if you were able to perform miracles and cast out demons, you would be led to believe you were in a right relationship with God. I think this might have been true of Judas Iscariot. I think Matthew 7:22-23 shows that if you don't trust in Jesus alone outside of your good deeds, though they may be of an extraordinary kind, then you will find that your faith was not in the Lord, but in yourself; you built on the sand, not on the Rock. Those who have faith in Jesus will be faithful, and they will obey the Lord, but those who have done many good deeds, and are trusting in themselves, the waves of judgment will come just as they did in Noah's day, and they will "be crushed in utter destruction."

- Davies

A believer should expect to hear those Words with JOY!

Will step through some simplicities here, not knowing who will hear, but some will.

Here is what happens when we fall upon the STONE:


Matthew 21:44
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Who are we broken from when we thereupon fall?

The same operator as Saul was broken from:

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

In this breaking the BELIEVER becomes the PREVAILING PARTY in their lump. We do not however become 'sinless.' Sin was, is and remains OF THE DEVIL.

In Matthew 7 Jesus undoubtedly will speak those Words and will speak so to EVERY believer as they are RID permanently and forever of that resisting party, whom Jesus has every intention to CRUSH TO POWDER.

That 'crushing' is to transpire under our very feet:

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

So, you and 99% of believers still FEAR to hear those Words.

I expect to hear them and will REJOICE!

Ears to hear are precious.

If you do not understand that the tempter within the mind and heart will NEVER be legal or sinless or obedient, you will never understand and you will run from the LIVING WORDS of God until the end.

It is not believers who will be calling Lord Lord, but the children of the flesh, the children of the wicked one.

The TARE grows in our own ground, our own dust body.

Matthew 13:25
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

God TOLERATES the tares growing because to remove them will HARM the growing of the WHEAT. What harm would there be to YOU if the Tare was some other person?

Matthew 13:29
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

In the end, at the harvest, this is what happens:

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

When a believer reads these matters, their natural inclination is always to see the bad parts as being some other guy.

That is NOT the case.

The same Word that DIVIDES and BREAKS US from our enemy is the SAME WORD that is meant to both arouse and to eventually DESTROY the enemy.

In any legitimate 'self' examination disciples WILL FIND what they are to HATE and they will see RIGHTLY what is to be hated in others as well.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

s

 

[Davies]

Romans 7:9 (KJV)
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

As the sinful feeling lay dormant apart from the law, he felt as if he were alive. He had no sense of sin or of its condemnation. [He was alive in all the freedom of an untroubled conscience. Possibly he refers to the undisturbed feeling of legal righteousness, as in the rich young ruler, who, when brought face to face with the commandment, could say: "All these things have I observed: what lack I yet?" Matt 19:20. This seems to have been the case with Paul, who says that he was, "as touching the righteousness which is in the law, found blameless." Phil 3:6. In this sense he had kept the law, as every pious Pharisee did.]

Hi BornAgain,

I thought this was a good explanation of the Paul's awareness of sin. As a Pharisee, he couldn't see his need for salvation, but God revealed it to Him by the law. Despite having the Lord appear to him on the road to Damascus, Paul is saved in the same manner anyone is saved.
1 Timothy 1:15-16

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.


I believe that Paul wrote to Timothy at the end of his life. At the beginning of Paul's conversion, he was the least of the Apostles. At the end of his life, he was the chief of sinners. I'm thinking as we grow closer to Jesus, we will see more clearly that we are great sinners. An objection comes up and says, 'We shouldn't beat ourselves up,' not realizing that it is a grace to be able to see our sin clearly, because it means the Spirit is working in us. Perhaps the reason a person comes to faith gradually is because the full weight of our sins, if realized, before we are able to trust in Jesus, would bring us to despair. The law of God reveals our sin, and the Holy Spirit reveals the grace and mercy of Jesus. The greater the understanding of our sins, the greater our understanding of the grace of God and just how much He has forgiven us.

- Davies

 

[BornAgain]

Hi BornAgain,

I thought this was a good explanation of the Paul's awareness of sin. As a Pharisee, he couldn't see his need for salvation, but God revealed it to Him by the law. Despite having the Lord appear to him on the road to Damascus, Paul is saved in the same manner anyone is saved.
1 Timothy 1:15-16

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.


I believe that Paul wrote to Timothy at the end of his life. At the beginning of Paul's conversion, he was the least of the Apostles. At the end of his life, he was the chief of sinners. I'm thinking as we grow closer to Jesus, we will see more clearly that we are great sinners. An objection comes up and says, 'We shouldn't beat ourselves up,' not realizing that it is a grace to be able to see our sin clearly, because it means the Spirit is working in us. Perhaps the reason a person comes to faith gradually is because the full weight of our sins, if realized, before we are able to trust in Jesus, would bring us to despair. The law of God reveals our sin, and the Holy Spirit reveals the grace and mercy of Jesus. The greater the understanding of our sins, the greater our understanding of the grace of God and just how much He has forgiven us.

- Davies

Hi Davies,

That was a good post, thank you.

BornAgain

 

[Webb]

Hi Unbeliever

I now believe you to be correct. I read your post #13, too hastily and made three mistakes: (1) not reading the previous posts before yours; (2) your user name threw me off course; (3) as a result I misread your phrase "---the foundations for declaring something to be a sin are themselves doubted." I concluded you were one of the doubters. Your position if I now properly understand, has always been mine.

God bless

 

[The Unbeliever]

Hi Unbeliever,

I would say you are right. If there is no God, then we can define sin to be anything we want or dismiss it altogether.

Thanks.

If you can stand on this green earth with its variety of life on land and sea, not to mention the complexity of our own bodies, plus ignnoring what our conscience tells us, and say there is no God, well, I can understand your point of view.

I don't say there is no God, merely that I am not aware of there being any God. The color of the earth and various forms of life on it do not tell me there is a God, and I'm not ignoring my conscience. In fact, it is my conscience that compels my unbelief. Anything else would be dishonest.

I can't ignore creation, my conscience, and what the Bible says.

Good, I would never tell you to do otherwise.

Try to keep the Ten Commandments on face value, then try to keep the Ten Commandments based on how Jesus defined them, and you will prove what Paul taught regarding sin.

How can I keep the first commandment when I don't believe in God?

Even better, if you have a hard time recognizing God, then take the last five Commandments and try to keep them. You will begin to see the depth of sin that is in you and that is in me, and everyone else. This is actually the means to coming to the cross and having faith in Jesus. You wouldn't be above this would you?

Actually, I don't feel like I have that big a problem with the last five. I don't murder, adulterate, or steal, and I generally don't lie or covet. My problems are more in the area of anger and a lack of empathy. I do think it is a good idea to remind myself of these so that I can strive for improvement. But again, without God there is no sin, only wrong and perhaps evil. I know I am often wrong, and evil on occasion. But it doesn't matter how bad I am, if there is no God, then there is no point in coming to the cross and having faith in Jesus.

 

[smaller]

Thanks.


I don't say there is no God, merely that I am not aware of there being any God. The color of the earth and various forms of life on it do not tell me there is a God, and I'm not ignoring my conscience. In fact, it is my conscience that compels my unbelief. Anything else would be dishonest.


Good, I would never tell you to do otherwise.


How can I keep the first commandment when I don't believe in God?


Actually, I don't feel like I have that big a problem with the last five. I don't murder, adulterate, or steal, and I generally don't lie or covet. My problems are more in the area of anger and a lack of empathy. I do think it is a good idea to remind myself of these so that I can strive for improvement. But again, without God there is no sin, only wrong and perhaps evil. I know I am often wrong, and evil on occasion. But it doesn't matter how bad I am, if there is no God, then there is no point in coming to the cross and having faith in Jesus.

Odd as it may seem you would to me exemplify a more truthful believer than the majority of believers.

To enter the ground of faith, one believes in the hope for better, the faith that love and doing loving actions has some merit, and the hope that someday evil will be taken away completely, which will require Divine Interventions into the heart, and in fact love is part of that intervention from The Spirit of God, even though you may not perceive it as such.

s

 

[The Unbeliever]

Yeah, very sure. And likewise yes, sin was in the world right from the beginning, activated to the fore by the first command, do not eat.

If we took Jesus statement of fact we can even 'see' how it happened. Mark 4:15 is how it went down the moment Gods blessings were bestowed on Adam. What happened to Adam is as Jesus says. And it still happens to this day.

And how could Satan have stolen away the word before Adam and Eve had received the word? Nevermind that Satan isn't even introduced as a player until afterwards. I honestly don't think your speculation squares with the passage in question.

It is quite impossibly too late to have any of Gods Words of Law taken out of our present system. The Law was given in progressive fashions for exactly the opposite intentions, to make sin utterly sinful in preparation for final judgments. To observe our present world is to see that preparation transpire daily, also in progressive fashions. The same operational principle is seen in the members of the churches who seek to burn other believers alive in fire. That is also a working of sin in the members, evidenced by their produce.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I said, but OK.

The law is not about you, but about the resisting powers unseen that operate in this present world. Whether you look at the law or not is irrelevant. The dynamic was already set in place long long ago by Gods Words in contentions with the opposers.

Well, the law is not anything if there is no God. This was my point all along.

Most of the hoo haa one will hear from believers is how they try to stop sinning. The real issues are how that operation works in the first place. When this matter is seen the attempts at hiding are laughable.

I was finished, but this comment caught me out. Who is attempting to hide what?