Should Christians rethink Hell?

[Doulos Iesou]

Not to mention that Dr. Mohler's view of Hell, is TurnOrKατακαίω's view.

I see what you did there.

 

[turnorburn]

Southern Baptists aren't a heretical organization, nor as Dr. Mohler a heretic, despite the fact that I disagree with him on certain things.

It's not a good idea to get our opinions about others by referring to a random list online.

I didn't say their organization is heretical i say there is heresy within the organization... Its a sign of the times is all..

II Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

tob

 

[TimothyW]

Deleted post. Perhaps it is better to not respond.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I didn't say their organization is heretical i say there is heresy within the organization... Its a sign of the times is all..

II Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

tob

Hi tob,

Can you perhaps cite the heresy that is currently promoted by the Southern Baptist Church?

 

[turnorburn]

Hi tob,

Can you perhaps cite the heresy that is currently promoted by the Southern Baptist Church?

i didn't say that heresy was being promoted i said there is heresy within the Southern Baptist church.. One name on that list Greg Boyd, i don't know if he's baptist but he's associated with the title of this thread..

tob

 

[TimothyW]

i didn't say that heresy was being promoted i said there is heresy within the Southern Baptist church.. One name on that list Greg Boyd, i don't know if he's baptist but he's associated with the title of this thread..

tob

Actually, this thread is about the debate between Chris Date and Al Mohler. Why don't you listen to the podcast and give us your opinion of the debate?

 

[turnorburn]

Why should i listen to teachers that teach there is no need of salvation?

tob

 

[TimothyW]

Southern Baptists aren't a heretical organization, nor as Dr. Mohler a heretic, despite the fact that I disagree with him on certain things.

It's not a good idea to get our opinions about others by referring to a random list online.

I agree

 

[TimothyW]

Why should i listen to teachers that teach there is no need of salvation?

tob

You probably shouldn't. This thread is about the debate between Al Mohler and Chris Date, why don't you give the podcast a listen and then give us your opinion of the debate?

 

[WIP]

Hi WIP, Separation from God would be a bad thing, but then what do you make of all of the destruction passages in the Bible?
(Matt 10:38, Matt 18:14, Matt 21:41, Luke 20:16, John 3:16, John 3:36, John 10:10, John 17:12, Romans 2:12, Romans 14:15, 2 Cor 2:15, 2 Thess 1:9, 2 Peter 3:6, 2 Peter 3:9, Jude 1:7...)

I don't want to get into this debate as I don't see this one ever coming to a conclusion between the opposition on this side of heaven but I will give it some thought.

 

[TimothyW]

I don't want to get into this debate as I don't see this one ever coming to a conclusion between the opposition on this side of heaven but I will give it some thought.

The two sides (by definition) will never agree, but any of us can come to a closer understanding of the scriptures relating to hell. Thanks for agreeing to give this some thought.

 

[turnorburn]

You probably shouldn't. This thread is about the debate between Al Mohler and Chris Date, why don't you give the podcast a listen and then give us your opinion of the debate?

No your right Tim i probably shouldn't i don't have itching ears..
tob

 

[WIP]

The two sides (by definition) will never agree, but any of us can come to a closer understanding of the scriptures relating to hell. Thanks for agreeing to give this some thought.

I found something interesting about the word “destruction” that might add to this discussion. I’ll share it but I won’t defend either side. Quite frankly, I’m a little on the fence in this discussion although I lean toward the ECT position.

I’ve been reading along not only as a moderator but also as an observer/student seeking deeper understanding. For this reason, it pains me when members struggle to keep emotions in check in these threads as it does me no benefit at all.

From Merriam-Webster online.
Destruction : the act or process of damaging something so badly that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired : the act or process of destroying something.

 

[TimothyW]

No your right Tim i probably shouldn't i don't have itching ears..
tob

"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." Proverbs 18:13
Why don't you give the podcast a listen and then give us your opinion of the debate?

 

[Obadiah]

...Why don't you give the podcast a listen and then give us your opinion of the debate?

I agree. Let's stay on topic. Whether or not Southern Baptists are heretics is NOT the topic of this thread.

 

[chessman]

(Removed. Back to topic. Obadiah)

 

[Butch5]

Thanks Butch, I appreciate that.
I've looked at the major verses that the ECT group uses. I don't know of any that they use that I haven't seen.
Matthew 25:46 says that there is eternal punishment, which I agree with and this verse also says that only the righteous get to have eternal life and this is obviously a problem for the ECT view.
Luke 16 contains a parable about the intermediate state, I think that the ECT view also acknowledges this. Since it is about the intermediate state and not the final state, I'm not sure how it can be used as solid evidence for the final state being ECT. Also, Chris Date has pointed out that "eternal" is not even part of this parable.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 is often referenced to support ECT, but it specifically says the penalty is eternal destruction which is the Conditionalist View.
Revelation 14:10 is probably the best evidence for ECT, as it says the smoke of their torment rises forever, however this does not say that the torment lasts forever, merely the smoke. And Chris Date pointed out that this same language is used in the OT to denote total destruction.
The last verse that people use to support ECT is Revelation 20:10.
This verse doesn't say anything about the fate of the lost, it says that only three entities will be tormented, these are the devil, the beast, and the false prophet.

For the Conditional Immortality group, the evidence that the wicked will be destroyed or perish is much stronger. The Bible specifically speaks of this in Psalm 37:10, 20 and 38; Ezekiel 18:4; Malachi 4, Matthew 10:28, John 3:16 and 36; Romans 6:23, 2 Peter 3, and Jude 1:7 among other passages of scripture. In the podcast Chris Date listed many more verses which I believe the ECT side should address.


I don't believe that God does this, but if it turns out that the ECTists are correct, I still trust that God is just and I don't understand it. I agree with all that you have said. Perhaps the justice of God is an argument against ECT.

Hi Timothy,

I really think the prophecy of Jeremiah concerning Gehenna really ends the debate. If Gehenna is going to be made holy to the Lord, I don't see any way the wicked could burn there forever.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer 31:38-40 KJV)

Regarding the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, (Luke 16:19-31) I don't think it's about the intermediate state, I think it's parable about the demise of the priesthood. ECT uses this passage for support but I think it really causes problems for the doctrine. In order to use this passage to support ECT, one has to be inconsistent. One has to say that the body is in the grave and that it is the spirit or soul that is in Hades suffering, however, the details of the parable speak of the body, finger, tongue, eyes, etc. These are body parts, not parts of the spirit or soul. Spirit is breath or wind and doesn't have fingers, tongues, or eyes. If Hades is the Grave then we would expect to find body parts there. A spirit can't be seen yet the rich man sees Abraham and Lazarus, how is that? All the things we see in this parable relate to the body, yet ECT says it is spirit or soul and not body, which doesn't even fit the parable.

 

[TimothyW]

Hi Timothy,

I really think the prophecy of Jeremiah concerning Gehenna really ends the debate. If Gehenna is going to be made holy to the Lord, I don't see any way the wicked could burn there forever.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer 31:38-40 KJV)

Good post, I agree that Jeremiah 31:38-40 settles the question. I wonder how the traditional view sees it.
I've been reading the ESV lately, here's the passage in the ESV Bible:

Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when the city shall be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. And the measuring line shall go out farther, straight to the hill Gareb, and shall then turn to Goah. The whole valley of the dead bodies and the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be sacred to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.​

 

[Butch5]

Good post, I agree that Jeremiah 31:38-40 settles the question. I wonder how the traditional view sees it.
I've been reading the ESV lately, here's the passage in the ESV Bible:

Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when the city shall be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. And the measuring line shall go out farther, straight to the hill Gareb, and shall then turn to Goah. The whole valley of the dead bodies and the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be sacred to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.​

The LXX reads a little differently but has the same idea. In your other post you said,

"Revelation 14:10 is probably the best evidence for ECT, as it says the smoke of their torment rises forever, however this does not say that the torment lasts forever, merely the smoke. And Chris Date pointed out that this same language is used in the OT to denote total destruction."

This passage doesn't address the dead, these people are alive. They are worshipping the beast.

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:9-11 KJV)

If this was about the dead in the Lake of Fire they would have to be worshipping the beast and his image. I doubt his image will be in the Lake of Fire.

 

[TimothyW]

The LXX reads a little differently but has the same idea. In your other post you said,

"Revelation 14:10 is probably the best evidence for ECT, as it says the smoke of their torment rises forever, however this does not say that the torment lasts forever, merely the smoke. And Chris Date pointed out that this same language is used in the OT to denote total destruction."

This passage doesn't address the dead, these people are alive. They are worshipping the beast.

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:9-11 KJV)

If this was about the dead in the Lake of Fire they would have to be worshipping the beast and his image. I doubt his image will be in the Lake of Fire.