Should Christians rethink Hell?

[FreeGrace]

When they are destroyed on the day of judgment. 2 Peter 3:7
But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
So, after reading 2 Peter 3:7 do you still believe that the ungodly are not destroyed on the day of judgment and destruction?

The difference between our views is that I understand "destroy" differently than you. Because of such verses as Matt 25:46, 2 Thess 1:9 and Rev 20:10, I'm convinced that unbelievers will suffer ECT. No way around it. If one simply ceases to exist at some point, there can be no concept of eternal.

What do you mean by physical death? Is this a kind of death where the dying person remains alive?

My view of physical death is exactly the same as James' view, as described in James 2:26 - "For just as the body without the spirit is dead-" NASB. When the spirit separates from the body, the body is said to be dead.

As well, when the spirit is separated from God by being cast into the lake of fire per Rev 20:15, they experience the second death. Their spirit is still conscious. But their condition is said to be spiritual death - permament separation from God.

All humans are born "dead in sins" per Eph 2:1. That means humans are separated from God at birth. Their souls/spirits are conscious but they are separated from God. When one believes, they become "spiritually alive" per Eph 2:5. This is the second birth or new birth. They will live with God for eternity because they have His life, which is eternal.

Those who never received the gift of eternal life will experience (consciously) separation from God by being cast into the lake of fire.

If you think I'm wrong, please address each point I've just made and refute my points by using the very verses I've used. Don't think you can refute me (my verses) with other verses. The Bible doesn't work that way.

You asking this again. You assume that being destroyed is no punishment. I don't agree with that.

Once someone no longer exists, they don't experience ANYTHING. How cdan punishment be exacted on one who doesn't exist? I don't recall that you've ever addressed that.

Destruction is the punishment, whether or not the destroyed person can feel it.

Well, that's my point. If one doesn't "feel it", how can it be considered a punishment. It would be like spanking someone in a coma. Not real smart.

Your question makes no sense. Having eternal life is the reward, losing out on having eternal life is the punishment. I don't know why you don't understand this.

Well, the Bible NEVER ever says that EL is a reward. It is a gift, not a reward. And the punishment is not "losing out on EL", but experiencing the second death. Which is a conscious experience. For eternity. ECT.

No, it does not. You ASSUME that the eternal punishment is eternal consciousness. Eternal Destruction is the eternal punishment.

I make no assumptions. The Bible is clear on the concept of "eternal punishment" and being "tormented night and day forever and ever" in the lake of fire, which all unsaved will be cast into. You've made the assumption that they will cease to exist by your very limited application of the single word "destroy".

LIFE is better than DESTRUCTION.

I will say it again: if one simply ceases to exist, there is NOTHING to experience. You've not shown otherwise.

Being destroyed is a punishment because the offender is given something WORSE than they would have had otherwise.

I will give you a very clear example to demonstrate how incorrect you are. If one is in an auto crash, and injured severely, which would be "better": conscious of the injuries, or in a coma?

Destruction is eternal, since the person who is destroyed remains destroyed forever.

You haven't proven your assumption. When one ceases to exist, there is no more concept of time, or eternity. And their not being conscious removes any concept of punishment, which you haven't admitted. The Bible SAYS "eternal punishment". One MUST be conscious in order to experience punishment.

Why would spanking someone who deserves it but is in a coma make sense? Wouldn't one rather first wait or try to get them out of the coma so that they can experience their punishment? Of course they would.

Your belief that the unsaved will have eternal life being tormented alive forever goes against Matthew 25:46 because it is only the other group that goes off to eternal life, not both groups. You doctrine contradicts this scripture.

You've made a very serious error in understanding my view. I've NEVER said the unsaved will have eternal life. I've always said they experience the second death, which is eternal and conscious.

Please stop making the error that being conscious equals being "alive". The Bible is very clear on terms. There is physical life and death just as there is spiritual life and death. I don't think you understand these principles.

 

[FreeGrace]

Christ says “It is finished”, not His mission on Earth was finished or that His ‘spiritual death’ is finished. Yet that’s your claim, obviously. Paul disagrees with you via the 1 Cor 15 passage. Saying Christ paid the price for our sins on the cross, or as Paul does, that our sin debt was "nailed to the cross" is one thing. Saying that "His mission" to Earth was completed there is quite another.

I believe that Christ's paying the price for our sins on the cross is exactly what He meant by "it is finished". They payment had been paid BEFORE He died physically. And He was separated from His Father while His Father wasw forsaking Him and judging Him for our sins, which I believe is spiritual death and what is meant by the term "blood of Christ" "death of Christ", etc. So Paul and I are on the same page.

You didn’t provide any OT Scriptural passages that indicate Jesus was going to die spiritually in accordance with the OT Scriptures like I asked for.

Every verse that speaks of Christ's death is in reference to His paying the price for our sin, which is His spiritual death while physically alive.

I do have one last question for you though since all this discussion about 'spiritual death'. Kind to summarize your view for me:

Essentially then, is it your view that the lost’s Eternal Punishment (i.e. their second death) is a second ‘spiritual death’?

All are born spiritually dead, per Eph 2:1 where Paul tells the Ephesians they were 'dead in sins'. That has to be a spiritual death, because he was describing living people before they were saved, or "made spiritually alive" (v.5). So before they were spiritually alive, they were spiritually dead in sins. I believe this should be obvious to everyone.

So, man is born physically alive and spiritually dead. If one believes in Christ, they are made spiritually alive, which is the new birth, or a second birth, which is spiritual.

For those who never received the gift of eternal life, and are spiritually dead (separated from God in time), will experience another death, called the second death, which is when they are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20;15).

So, everyone will be either
a. born once, and die twice,
b. or born twice and die once.

I'll let you munch on that one for a while.

 

[FreeGrace]

Is it possible that what we understand "punishment" to be may not be quite correct? I personally believe that to not be in the presence of God for eternity (heaven) would be punishment with weaping and gnashing of teeth so long as one realizes what is happening. I see this being reinforced in the story of the rich man and Lazarus and how the rich man was in torment because he realized he could not be where he truly wanted to be. Does that make sense?

When Jesus cried out to the Father from the cross, "Why have you forsaken me?" I also suspect part of the reason for Christ's torment was that he was separated for a time.

Excellent point!! The mere fact of cognizance of having rejected the free gift of eternal life and eternity with God will certainly seem to be torment enough. Yet, Rev 20:11-15 is clear that unbelievers will be judged for their deeds. And Jesus indicated that it will be "more tolerable" on that day for some rather than others. So I don't think everyone in the lake of fire will be in shallow end of the pool. Some will be in the deep end. Because they deserved it.

Just as faithful and obedient believers will have deserved the reward they have earned for eternity.

 

[TimothyW]

The difference between our views is that I understand "destroy" differently than you. Because of such verses as Matt 25:46, 2 Thess 1:9 and Rev 20:10, I'm convinced that unbelievers will suffer ECT.

Thanks FreeGrace. I know that you understand "destroy" differently than I do. What can I say to that? I use the regular dictionary definition of "destroy", and I believe that I have given you that definition as well. Concerning Matt 25:46, and Rev 20:10, neither verse actually says that the lost will suffer ECT. I'm not sure why you included 2 Thess 1:9, as it specifically says that they will pay the penalty of eternal destruction and it doesn't say anything to support ECT.
Here is 2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
I'm not seeing a big objection from Saint Paul to my belief that the penalty is eternal destruction.

 

[FreeGrace]

Thanks FreeGrace. I know that you understand "destroy" differently than I do. What can I say to that? I use the regular dictionary definition of "destroy", and I believe that I have given you that definition as well.

I use lexicons of the Greek or Hebrew words, since those are the words used, not the English words, which are just a translation. All words have a range of semantical meaning. I prefer to focus on understanding the range of the word actually written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Concerning Matt 25:46, and Rev 20:10, neither verse actually says that the lost will suffer ECT.

Re: Matt 25, I combine v.41 with v.46 to inform my view.
v.41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels NASB

This is in reference to unbelievers. Note "eternal fire".

v.46 "“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” NASB

Same group as v.41. So, the term "eternal fire" applies to v.46 and "eternal punishment". I've proven that in order to be punished, one MUST be conscious of it.

I'm not sure why you included 2 Thess 1:9, as it specifically says that they will pay the penalty of eternal destruction and it doesn't say anything to support ECT.
Here is 2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
I'm not seeing a big objection from Saint Paul to my belief that the penalty is eternal destruction.

Here is the Greek word for "destruction"
olethros
1) ruin, destroy, death
1a) for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed

There is nothing in this word to indicate cessation of existence, which is your view. So this verse doesn't support your view. And certainly the "lusts of the flesh" will be "subdued and destroyed" in the second death.

So, that's an application of the word that you haven't considered.

 

[TimothyW]

Thanks Freegrace, I'm not sure why you are saying that there is nothing in the definition of olethros to indicate cessation of existence. "Destroy" and "Death" both indicate cessation of existence.

Here is 2 Thessalonians 1:9 again, so that you can see that the verse doesn't say anything about eternal conscious torment, and it actually says the same thing that I am saying, that the penalty is eternal destruction.
"These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (NASB)

Editted to add:
Concerning Matthew 25:41, this says that they go into the eternal fire. I agree with this, as I'm sure that you do as well. Since fire destroys what is put into it, I'm not seeing any contradiction with my view that the goats in the parable are destroyed. Since you said that verse 41 informs your view of verse 46, will you be saying that the lost are destroyed and only the sheep will go to eternal life?

 

[TimothyW]

FreeGrace, I want to ask you this in order to help you. I don't mean any disrespect by this at all.
When you were attempting to convince me that olethros didn't mean destruction, why did you use a definition that included the word "destruction"? It would probably be better for your argument if you would simply avoid 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

 

[stovebolts]

As well, when the spirit is separated from God by being cast into the lake of fire per Rev 20:15, they experience the second death. Their spirit is still conscious. But their condition is said to be spiritual death - permanent separation from God.

Hi Freegrace.
How do you view these verses and how do you reconcile it with your above post?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

The way I understand it, Death is the consequence for sin and Death is not eternal. Its' days are numbered and it will be utterly destroyed.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Hi Freegrace.
How do you view these verses and how do you reconcile it with your above post?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

The way I understand it, Death is the consequence for sin and Death is not eternal. Its' days are numbered and it will be utterly destroyed.

Sorry, this was not directed at me......but every spirit goes back to God at judgment time. It says it in the Ecclesiastes 12:14

and Hebrews 9:27 Just as a man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment

 

[TimothyW]

Sorry, this was not directed at me......but every spirit goes back to God at judgment time. It says it in the Ecclesiastes 12:14

and Hebrews 9:27 Just as a man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment

But the question was "How do you reconcile it with your above post?" post being "But their condition is said to be spiritual death - permanent separation from God."

If at death the spirit returns to God, but death is said to be separation from God...How do these ideas reconcile?

 

[FreeGrace]

Thanks Freegrace, I'm not sure why you are saying that there is nothing in the definition of olethros to indicate cessation of existence. "Destroy" and "Death" both indicate cessation of existence.

Again, I disagree. To "destroy" only demands ceasing of current function, not ceasing to be. And 'death' can and does indicate separation as well as cessation of function. But your view is less inclusive.

Here is 2 Thessalonians 1:9 again, so that you can see that the verse doesn't say anything about eternal conscious torment, and it actually says the same thing that I am saying, that the penalty is eternal destruction.
"These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (NASB)

I'm just not understanding how you do not understand that the very concept of "eternal" means ON-GOING. Which eliminates ANY concept of ceasing to exist, which ceases any concept of "on-going".

So, in order to have eternal punishment, it HAS TO mean on-going punishment. To not exist removes any concept of on-going punishment.

Please explain how my example of spanking someone in a coma can be considered punishment since they have no conscious awareness of the spanking.

Editted to add:
Concerning Matthew 25:41, this says that they go into the eternal fire. I agree with this, as I'm sure that you do as well. Since fire destroys what is put into it, I'm not seeing any contradiction with my view that the goats in the parable are destroyed.

Sure, fire destroys the current status of the material. But it does NOT cease to exist, which is the problem that you will not face. Burn some wood, and what it left? Nothing? No. What is left is ashes, which is what formerly existed.

The fire never causes anything to cease to exist. It just changes the form/structure of what it burns. The only thing that can be said to "cease to exist" is the current state.

Science knows that energy cannot created nor destroyed. It can only be altered.

Since you said that verse 41 informs your view of verse 46, will you be saying that the lost are destroyed and only the sheep will go to eternal life?

Yes, only the sheep (saved people) will go to be with God forever because they have eternal life. The others will exist forever in the lake of fire. They will be conscious of their existence. But please don't call that "life" of any kind. It is properly called the second death. It is eternal separation from God.

We were born separated from God (Eph 2:1) but that isn't permanent nor eternal. Only when one shows up at the GWT judgment without possessing eternal life is one cast into the second death. At that point, there is no chance of getting eternal life. Permanent separation from God.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace, I want to ask you this in order to help you. I don't mean any disrespect by this at all.
When you were attempting to convince me that olethros didn't mean destruction, why did you use a definition that included the word "destruction"? It would probably be better for your argument if you would simply avoid 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

I never tried to convince you that the Greek word didn't mean destruction. I was showing that it more than what you seem to think it means. You're applying only 1 English word to the Greek word to support your opinion.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi Freegrace.
How do you view these verses and how do you reconcile it with your above post?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

The way I understand it, Death is the consequence for sin and Death is not eternal. Its' days are numbered and it will be utterly destroyed.

Eccl 12:7 tells us that all souls will report to God. Doesn't mean all souls will live with God eternally. Those who report to the Bema (Judgment Seat of Christ - 2 Cor 5:10) will be given reward or informed of loss of reward. Thos who report to the GWT judgment of Rev 21 will be judged as to how tolerable it will be for them in the second death, since Jesus noted that it will be "more tolerable" for some than for others, based on their lives: Matt 10:15, 11:22,24, Mark 6:11, Lu 10:12,14.

 

[FreeGrace]

But the question was "How do you reconcile it with your above post?" post being "But their condition is said to be spiritual death - permanent separation from God."

If at death the spirit returns to God, but death is said to be separation from God...How do these ideas reconcile?

The spiritual death, or second death is applied AFTER the GWT judgment. That's when they are cast into the lake of fire. That's WHEN they are permanently separated from God.

Question for you: At birth, is the person permanently separated from God, or just separated from God?

 

[LovethroughDove]

But the question was "How do you reconcile it with your above post?" post being "But their condition is said to be spiritual death - permanent separation from God."

If at death the spirit returns to God, but death is said to be separation from God...How do these ideas reconcile?

Jesus says that there will be separation. Matthew 25:41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'

At your physical death (dying once) as per Hebrews 9:27......you then go to God for judgment.........and then separation Matthew 25:41

 

[Free]

Sure, fire destroys the current status of the material. But it does NOT cease to exist, which is the problem that you will not face. Burn some wood, and what it left? Nothing? No. What is left is ashes, which is what formerly existed.

The fire never causes anything to cease to exist. It just changes the form/structure of what it burns. The only thing that can be said to "cease to exist" is the current state.

Science knows that energy cannot created nor destroyed. It can only be altered.

Based on what the Bible says, has energy always existed?

 

[FreeGrace]

Based on what the Bible says, has energy always existed?

Is God energy? If you believe that He is, then the answer is definitely "yes".

I cannot imagine that God is not energy.

 

[Free]

Is God energy? If you believe that He is, then the answer is definitely "yes".

I cannot imagine that God is not energy.

That's a very serious assertion that cannot be substantiated from Scripture, could be heretical in and of itself, and can lead to all sorts of heretical and aberrant teachings. Take JWs for instance. They believe the Holy Spirit is just a force, not a person. Or take pantheism. If energy cannot be created or destroyed, by God, and God is energy, then he has created everything from out of himself, making everything divine, making himself one and the same as his creation.

Energy is not personal. The Bible says that God is spirit. To equate the two is to go far beyond what Scripture states.

So your assertion that people in hell just turn into another form of energy, ignores the fact that God can and did create all matter, which would include energy, and he that can also destroy it completely should he choose to.

 

[LovethroughDove]

God is Light.
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

Opposite of God: is Darkness
2 Peter 2:17 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.

I posted before that the Rich man wanted water (Life giving source), but he was in hell(second death).

The Hebrews 9:27 Just as a man is destined to die once (physically), and after that to face judgment

This scripture says we die once, (That is permanent).........So, wouldn't the second death be eternal darkness without God?

 

[TimothyW]

I think I've said all that I need to. I am really enjoying the discussion, but maybe I should do other things.
I think the Scriptural support is there for the destruction of the wicked (Psalm 37:10, and others) and for immortality for the saved (2 Tim 1:10 and others), so I don't need to say much more.

I went to a wedding tonight, the pastor's son got married. It kind of puts this into perspective for me. Loving other people is more important than being right or having every doctrine exactly correct. God bless you LovethroughDove and FreeGrace. I hope to meet up with you in our Father's Kingdom.