Should Christians serve in the military?

[Tri Unity]

you claim that stormcrow and i adovacate war? why is serving bad? the roman army was also the cops then as well. to whom came in took paul to felix? the roman local centurion with his 100 men!. that also mean one cant also serve as a cop.

I would (personally) not serve in any political or government position. This includes being a policeman, politician, judge, lawyer, etc. There are some institutions that are borderline, but they don't need mentioning here. I'm only telling you what I believe from what I have learnt from the scriptures and from the Early Church Fathers (ante-Nicene). You are welcome to believe whatever you want, and so is Stormcrow. I am just making the comment that it is not what Jesus and the Apostles taught, and not what the immediate disciples understood in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. The church has now fallen away from orthodoxy, and it is now a free-for-all. That's ok. It was predicted. I'm not going to be persuaded that Jesus, the Apostles and the earliest Christians were wrong, and you now are right. Otherwise I would worship you. We don't all need to believe the same things. We need to find our own level of faith that we are content with, for one day we will be judged on our beliefs.

Another thread on The Disciple and Politics is found here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=43806&p=671831#post671831

 

[felix]

I would say, military by itself is not wrong but Christian must avoid military as much as possible as violence in their job against enemy may make them violent among his family/friends (not necessarily for all) and being violent is not a quality God likes as in Rom 1:30.

There are countries where serving in military is mandatory for every citizen who attains college age esp, in countries like Singapore etc. Hence, they had to serve military as under country law and no escaping.

 

[Tri Unity]

There are countries where serving in military is mandatory for every citizen who attains college age esp, in countries like Singapore etc. Hence, they had to serve military as under country law and no escaping.

I have friends who have gone to jail so as not to fight in war. The earliest Christians did this too, and many times back then they were killed in terrible ways for defying the Romans and not fighting. Christians have changed dramatically since then. We are now "arm-chair" christians. We know how to talk about it from our arm-chair, but in our spirit we are no different to the nations around us. We are certainly not willing to die for our faith, as the first Christians did. Now we kill for our faith. A big difference!

 

[felix]

I have friends who have gone to jail so as not to fight in war. The earliest Christians did this too, and many times back then they were killed in terrible ways for defying the Romans and not fighting. Christians have changed dramatically since then. We are now "arm-chair" christians. We know how to talk about it from our arm-chair, but in our spirit we are no different to the nations around us. We are certainly not willing to die for our faith, as the first Christians did. Now we kill for our faith. A big difference!

What you are saying is refining, only the true Christians will still have faith and die for it. But military does not necessarily war as most military of the world just protect their borders. You should worry too much about serving in military esp, under a dictator like Hitler or when someone who begins to use military for "political reasons" (as exactly told by outgoing Australian defense general describing Australia's role in in Afghanistan for the sake of US), rather than just defending the country.

 

[Classik]

And your point is?

There are several soldiers (uncountable soldiers) who never killed.

 

[Butch5]

"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte.

Oh brother

 

[Butch5]

A hypocrite uses the benefits of another blood

So, following Christ makes me a hypocrite? Are you a hypocrite?

 

[Butch5]

The where and why 'they' are sending our kids today in that way i agree....

I know it is popular today to find as much fault with America as possible. Looking and only finding the negative. That is what is taught in our school system... The Fathers were not all bad they were human with some good ideas and some bad... I would bet my last dollar that those old guys were more 'Christian' then the ones we have had in the last 100 years.

Then you might want to do some research. If you do you'll find out that many were Deisits and not Christians. Many would be rejected as Christians by todays standard.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, of course it is. I just wanted to see how far you would take your argument. I sure hope you are consistent and haven't used or in some other way depended on the services of such persons.

That's not consitency. God has established governmenst for that very purpose. What He has not established in the Christians participation in such.

 

[Butch5]

if being in the military a sin then why doesnt the posters who agree with that move to some location on the earth where no goverment is needed that must ensure their freedom live as they see fit? law and order takes a sword not a bible.

when you go to that food line and also doctor whom works for the goverment its taken at times from person who wont pay taxes by force and with blood shed if needed.

This is a straw man. No is saying militaries shouldn't exist. The question is, is this a place for the Christian.

 

[Butch5]

he preached change the world via my word fix that which is corrupt via my word and also while it will fail it will demostrate my kingdom and souls will be saved.

Where is this teaching found?

 

[Butch5]

Try getting a better translation!

For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. James 2:11 (NASB)

It seems it was understood differently in the beginning.

Tertullian
Nay, He puts His interdict on every sort of man-killing by that one summary precept, “Thou shalt not kill.â€

And finally, for those who allege government is "evil", here is what Paul had to say about it:

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil.

Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good.

But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. Romans 13:1-7 (NASB)

But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

Government as an avenger bearing the sword (military and police) to bring wrath on those who do evil.

Why should Christians not serve in such a noble capacity???

Isn't this a straw man? Who is advocating that government is evil?

 

[ReesesPieces]

The where and why 'they' are sending our kids today in that way i agree....

I know it is popular today to find as much fault with America as possible. Looking and only finding the negative. That is what is taught in our school system... The Fathers were not all bad they were human with some good ideas and some bad... I would bet my last dollar that those old guys were more 'Christian' then the ones we have had in the last 100 years.

Its not Just America its the whole world Ive never agreed with much in school or politics it just dosent make sense, in fact I questioned a lot of what was taught during my school years. As for politics and the founding fathers I personally think they were just as wicked except they had more class about them...nothing is new at all just the way its carried out is different. Our politicians today and just plain sloppy.

 

[Stormcrow]

For Jason about the armies and leadership of Rome...

Attributing his success to his newfound faith, he made Christianity the official religion of the empire. Constantine ordered the end of any religious persecution in all of the Empire, a step he had already taken in his own provinces of Britainia and Gaul in 306. He proclaimed the Edict of Toleration at Milan in 313, in which Christianity was made legal throughout Rome.

By 324 Constantine was in full control of a united empire. He relocated the imperial headquarters to Byzantium, whose name he then changed to Constantinople. The top political and military posts were now filled by Christians. Although they continued to operate, the old pagan temples were stripped of their former wealth, which was then shifted to Christian churches. The many fledgling churches across the empire thus acquired great strength and prosperity. In the East, the city of Constantinople would grow to be the capitol of a Christian Byzantine Empire, flourishing long after the Western Empire was lost to invading barbarians. Although no longer part of a unified Roman empire, western Europe would see the continued growth of Christianity.

It was in 337 AD that Constantine received Christian baptism on his deathbed. His chosen religion continued to grow eventually completely extinguishing the old pagan religion. It has been argued that Constantine was merely using the growing influence of Christianity for his own benefit. Whether or not this is true, it is agreed that the religion benefited tremendously from his patronage.

References:
1. Late Roman Infantryman AD 236 - 565, by Simon MacDowall
2. Romano-Byzantine Armies 4th-9th Centuries, David Nicolle
3. The Holy Land, by Peter Connolly

When Christians lead in government, the gospel flourishes. When they don't, it grows under persecution. It is far, far better that godly men lead and that the good they bring to government - even in the military - redounds to all than for unbelievers to lead where darkness abounds for all.

 

[Butch5]

Grazer,

Here are a few quotes from the early Christians. This how they understood the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

Here are some quotes from some of the major writers of the period (prior to 325 A.D.). This changed after the church merged with the state and became corrupted. Prior to 325 A.D. you would be hard pressed to find a writer who says that Christians can use force of any kind.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Justin Martyr 160 AD.
we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Justin Martyr
and we who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified;

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Tatian 160 AD.
How, then, shall I admit this nativity according to Fate, when I see such managers of Fate? I do not wish to be a king; I am not anxious to be rich; I decline military command;

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Athenagoras 175 AD.
for we have learned, not only not to return blow for blow, nor to go to law with those who plunder and rob us, but to those who smite us on one side of the face to offer the other side also, and to those who take away our coat to give likewise our cloak. But, when we have surrendered our property, they plot against our very bodies and souls, pouring upon us wholesale charges of crimes of which we are guiltless even in thought, but which belong to these idle praters themselves, and to the whole tribe of those who are like them.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus 180 AD.
the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight.â€

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus
But if the law of liberty, that is, the word of God, preached by the apostles (who went forth from Jerusalem) throughout all the earth, caused such a change in the state of things, that these [nations] did form the swords and war-lances into ploughshares, and changed them into pruning-hooks for reaping the corn, [that is], into instruments used for peaceful purposes, and that they are now unaccustomed to fighting, but when smitten, offer also the other cheek, (Matt. 5:39)


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Clement of Alexandria 195 AD.
For it is not in war, but in peace, that we are trained.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Clement of Alexandria
And an enemy must be aided, that he may not continue an enemy. For by help good feeling is compacted, and enmity dissolved.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 197 AD.
If we are enjoined, then, to love our enemies, as I have remarked above, whom have we to hate? If injured, we are forbidden to retaliate, lest we become as bad ourselves: who can suffer injury at our hands?

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian
the Christian does no harm even to his foe

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian
Nay, He puts His interdict on every sort of man-killing by that one summary precept, “Thou shalt not kill.â€


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5
Cyprian 250 AD.
Consider the roads blocked up by robbers, the seas beset with pirates, wars scattered all over the earth with the bloody horror of camps. The whole world is wet with mutual blood; and murder, which in the case of an individual is admitted to be a crime, is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not on the plea that they are guiltless, but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5
Cyprian
and that by this very fact they are invincible, that they do not fear death; that they do not in turn assail their assailants, since it is not lawful for the innocent even to kill the guilty;
Cyprian

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5
Cyprian
nor, after the Eucharist carried in it, is the hand spotted with the sword and blood.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7
Lanctantius 304-313 AD.
For how can a man be just who injures, who hates, who despoils, who puts to death? And they who strive to be serviceable to their country do all these things: for they are ignorant of what this being serviceable is, who think nothing useful, nothing advantageous, but that which can be held by the hand; and this alone cannot be held, because it may be snatched away

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7
Lanctantius
For it is not right that a worshipper of God should be injured by a worshipper of God.

 

[ReesesPieces]

Does Christ reign over all?

You have to invite him in in order for him to reign over anything. Light doesn't dwell in darkness.

 

[Stormcrow]

[/I][/B]

It seems it was understood differently in the beginning.

Tertullian
Nay, He puts His interdict on every sort of man-killing by that one summary precept, “Thou shalt not kill.â€

As you have not provided a reference or context for Tertullian's words, I am going to assume he was writing about Nero, who was a mass murderer.

Obviously, homicide (man-killing) is not only justified but mandated in the Bible, otherwise the government would not have been given the power of the sword to avenge evil. Swords aren't wall decorations. Joshua was told to go to war to take the land of Canaan for his people. Was God wrong for ordering the deaths of pagan Canaanites at the hands of the Hebrews?

Was God wrong for ordering the death of a murderer who took the life of another???

You seem to have a very selective approach to reading and understanding the Bible.

Isn't this a straw man? Who is advocating that government is evil?

You did!

Originally Posted by Grazer
I don't mean should as in they must but, if they want to serve their country in that manner, should they do so?

Well, you know my position. I'm not serving in the kingdom of darkness.

You were pretty emphatic about calling "their government" the "kingdom of darkness."

 

[Butch5]

For Jason about the armies and leadership of Rome...

Attributing his success to his newfound faith, he made Christianity the official religion of the empire. Constantine ordered the end of any religious persecution in all of the Empire, a step he had already taken in his own provinces of Britainia and Gaul in 306. He proclaimed the Edict of Toleration at Milan in 313, in which Christianity was made legal throughout Rome.

By 324 Constantine was in full control of a united empire. He relocated the imperial headquarters to Byzantium, whose name he then changed to Constantinople. The top political and military posts were now filled by Christians. Although they continued to operate, the old pagan temples were stripped of their former wealth, which was then shifted to Christian churches. The many fledgling churches across the empire thus acquired great strength and prosperity. In the East, the city of Constantinople would grow to be the capitol of a Christian Byzantine Empire, flourishing long after the Western Empire was lost to invading barbarians. Although no longer part of a unified Roman empire, western Europe would see the continued growth of Christianity.

It was in 337 AD that Constantine received Christian baptism on his deathbed. His chosen religion continued to grow eventually completely extinguishing the old pagan religion. It has been argued that Constantine was merely using the growing influence of Christianity for his own benefit. Whether or not this is true, it is agreed that the religion benefited tremendously from his patronage.

References:
1. Late Roman Infantryman AD 236 - 565, by Simon MacDowall
2. Romano-Byzantine Armies 4th-9th Centuries, David Nicolle
3. The Holy Land, by Peter Connolly

When Christians lead in government, the gospel flourishes. When they don't, it grows under persecution. It is far, far better that godly men lead and that the good they bring to government - even in the military - redounds to all than for unbelievers to lead where darkness abounds for all.

What you've presented here is what became the Roman Catholic church and we see how that progressed through the dark ages. Christianity didn't flourish it was changed into something else.

Additionally, I see you didn't provide any primary sources rather gave the views of these authors.

 

[Stormcrow]

You have to invite him in in order for him to reign over anything.

That's not what my Bible teaches.

Light doesn't dwell in darkness.

No it doesn't. It overcomes it.

 

[Butch5]

As you have not provided a reference or context for Tertullian's words, I am going to assume he was writing about Nero, who was a mass murderer.

This doesn't surprise me, it goes against what you believe.

Obviously, homicide (man-killing) is not only justified but mandated in the Bible, otherwise the government would not have been given the power of the sword to avenge evil. Swords aren't wall decorations. Joshua was told to go to war to take the land of Canaan for his people. Was God wrong for ordering the deaths of pagan Canaanites at the hands of the Hebrews?

Was God wrong for ordering the death of a murderer who took the life of another???

You seem to have a very selective approach to reading and understanding the Bible.[/quote]

Are you living under the old Jewish covenant? I find it funny how when one speaks of necessity of works Christians claim, that's the old testament were not under that. Yet, when it come to war that's that first place they run.

If you're living under the old Jewish covenant then I guess you can justify the use of force. However, If you're living under the new covenant you can't.

You did!

No didn't. I you were familiar with the early Christians you should know that they lived by the doctrine of The Two Kingdoms, there was the kingdom of God and the kingdoms of this world (darkness). So, by kingdom of darkness I mean kingdoms of this world.

You were pretty emphatic about calling "their government" the "kingdom of darkness."

See above.