Should Christians serve in the military?

[Stormcrow]

Some war mongers try to justify their attitudes by quoting Romans 13.

And some hypocritical pacifists try to justify their attitudes by saying Jesus was all about "warm fuzzies."

Some of these same hypocrites ignore the book of Revelation where they say He has yet to return, but when He does He will lead the armies of heaven against all the wicked and slay them all with the sword!

Some of these same hypocrites just can't seem to wait for the rature and their turn to join Him in the global bloodletting at His return!

And some of these hypocrites even forget that Jesus Christ Himself uttered these very words:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34 (NASB)

Pacifists wouldn't exist if they were the ones required to defend themselves and their loved ones. Instead, they self-righteously thump their chests that they are holier-than-thou while they enjoy the freedom to do so paid for with the blood of others.

Such hypocrisy sickens me.

 

[Drew]

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34 (NASB)

Clearly, this could be read as a metaphor - a statement that allegiance to Jesus will put one in conflict with others. It certainly need not necessarily be taken as an endorsment of the very thing Jesus preaches against in other places - the use of the sword.

Pacifists wouldn't exist if they were the ones required to defend themselves and their loved ones.

Maybe you are right. But we are not called to spare our own lives at all cost, we are called to be Christlike. And I am prepared to argue that Jesus was teaching a message of pacifism.

Instead, they self-righteously thump their chests that they are holier-than-thou while they enjoy the freedom to do so paid for with the blood of others.

Over the top rhetoric. There may be some who behave in this way. But there are others who point to difficult Biblical truth that part of the path of the gospel is the rejection of the sword.

I have studied this matter in some detail and am prepared to discuss all the relevant texts. I particularly enjoy the "buy two swords" text, so beloved of those who miss Jesus' point in that text and think He is endorsing the use of the sword as actual means of achieving an end.

 

[Butch5]

Pacifists wouldn't exist if they were the ones required to defend themselves and their loved ones. Instead, they self-righteously thump their chests that they are holier-than-thou while they enjoy the freedom to do so paid for with the blood of others.

They don't have defend themselves, they can trust God to do that.

Such hypocrisy sickens me.

I don't see anyone thumping their chest. Are you sure that it's not just the lack of Biblical support that is upsetting you?

 

[Drew]

Absolutely they should!!! They are overseas so those on forums who don't appreciate our servicemen have the freedom to sit behind their nice safe computer, in their nice safe house, in their nice safe town and and write how terrible our soldiers are!

GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS

It really is a shame that this kind of rhetoric is used. Can we not elevate the level of the discussion? Clearly, someone who argues that Jesus calls to the path of non-violence is not necessarily engaged in the form of hypocritical behaviour to which you refer.

What you are saying is essentially a strawman. We all agree that people can be hypocrites. But, based on what I am reading in this thread, you have no basis for this very rhetorical characterization of those who believe in the path of pacifism.

 

[Drew]

This subject comes up every so often. Give it a few pages.

Well?....

Its been a few pages now. Who has "insulted" the soldiers?

 

[reba]

You have to invite him in in order for him to reign over anything. Light doesn't dwell in darkness.

We do not control God.. The reign of the Lord depends on man's invitation? He was born King of Kings.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

 

[reba]

It really is a shame that this kind of rhetoric is used. Can we not elevate the level of the discussion? Clearly, someone who argues that Jesus calls to the path of non-violence is not necessarily engaged in the form of hypocritical behaviour to which you refer.

What you are saying is essentially a strawman. We all agree that people can be hypocrites. But, based on what I am reading in this thread, you have no basis for this very rhetorical characterization of those who believe in the path of pacifism.

The SDA who serve as medics do not fall in the category of hypocrite.

We all have opinions Drew. Each of us view our opinions as the most correct or we wouldn't have em..

 

[Drew]

We do not control God.. The reign of the Lord depends on man's invitation? He was born King of Kings.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

I agree, if I understand you are saying.

I think we have strayed too far in the direction of seeing Jesus as our "personal" Lord, as if He has not otherwise been installed as Lord over all creation, as I believe the Scriptures teach.

So, yes, we need to "accept" Jesus. But whether we accept Him or not does not alter His status as King.

 

[Drew]

We all have opinions Drew. Each of us view our opinions as the most correct or we wouldn't have em..

True, of course. But ideally, we should not caricature or distort the opinions of others.

 

[reba]

Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

To me theses verses show the growing of His Kingdom it will grow till the whole is leavened.

 

[jasoncran]

This is a straw man. No is saying militaries shouldn't exist. The question is, is this a place for the Christian.

tell that to jesus who NEVER told the centurions to leave the roman army.

also does it make sense to ask men to sin so that you might live? hey want you are doing is a sin, but do sin so that i might live and eat.kay love you in christ. that makes no sense.

 

[jasoncran]

:eeeekkk drew and reba all medics in war are armed and allowed to carry weapons and fire and kill. they cant do this if they are with a unit that provides for them in self-defense but in the case they are attacked and not doing their jobs such as well with a casevac and medevac they can return fire.

in fact part of that casevac and medevac is taught upon contact and a wounded man is the squad who is there to include the MEDIC to return fire to supress the enemy and then get the guy out. if the enemy can shoot you its pointless to try to rescue your buddy, he will die with you if you try to render aid.


THE ONLY MAN THAT CAN'T SHOOT NOR CARRY ARMS IS THE CHAPLAINS, they have a unit chaplain.

but what would i know. i havent been to war and also trained in this. been at it for over 20 plus years. we had a medic that was one and did do the duty and he carried his weapon and went to the walls when we needed him and also worked in the aid station saving lives. he later left that work and went to only doing guard duty and missions and ops.

so now that is busted up, i guess a christian cant be a medic nor corpsman(dont know what the airforce calls medics) we call the doc or medics and the navy and marines called theirs navy corpsman. i have been treated by both.

 

[Butch5]

tell that to jesus who NEVER told the centurions to leave the roman army.

This is an argument from silence. To say Jesus never told the centurians to leave the army is nothing more than an assumption. Just because the statement isn't recorded doesn't mean it wasn't said.

also does it make sense to ask men to sin so that you might live? hey want you are doing is a sin, but do sin so that i might live and eat.kay love you in christ. that makes no sense.

I didn't ask men to sin for me. I didn't ask men to join the military for me. God is more than capable of protecting me.

 

[Codger]

And some hypocritical pacifists try to justify their attitudes by saying Jesus was all about "warm fuzzies."

Some of these same hypocrites ignore the book of Revelation where they say He has yet to return, but when He does He will lead the armies of heaven against all the wicked and slay them all with the sword!

Some of these same hypocrites just can't seem to wait for the rapture and their turn to join Him in the global bloodletting at His return!

And some of these hypocrites even forget that Jesus Christ Himself uttered these very words:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34 (NASB)

Pacifists wouldn't exist if they were the ones required to defend themselves and their loved ones. Instead, they self-righteously thump their chests that they are holier-than-thou while they enjoy the freedom to do so paid for with the blood of others.

Such hypocrisy sickens me.

Losses in the European theatre of war in the 40's has been estimated at 29,000,000 and 55,000,000 for WWII total. Losses for the 20th century was 180,000,000.

The Allies delayed getting into the war because of pacifism mostly. After all who wants to go to war? The problem was that the delay allowed Hitler to gain a huge foothold in Europe. Every time he conquered another country he had more manpower and resources to escalate the war of conquest even further. Neville Chamberlain and Roosevelt were the two main characters in delaying resistance against Hitler.

What do you think would have happened if the Allies were organized and had conducted an all out strike on Hitler when he first set foot across his boarder? If they could have stopped him early in his conquest how many would have been lost in this scenario.

Pacifism often causes a delay in bad situations and makes them much much worse in the end.

 

[Codger]

What did the early Church do? Rome was in those days a superpower and the Christians were a minority. The Christians never went to war with Rome, but the Jews did in 66AD and by 70AD they were totally defeated. (1,335 days) The nation of Israel was totally destroyed. The Christians took the non violent route and survived the Roman empire with about 2,100,000 martyrs. They were not militant, law breakers, thieves, and criminals. Their big problem was just one law which was initiated by Domitian - the Emperor of the book of Revelation. He was the first emperor to make emperor worship a requirement of every subject of Rome. You had to sacrifice to the Emperor as a sign of loyalty. The Christians would not say “Caesar is Lord - is God.†And so if they did not they were arrested tried and punished severely.

Were there Christians in the Roman army? Yes, history tells us that in 286AD the entire Theban legion consisting of all Christians were killed by the Roman government because of their refusal to fight against the Christian Gauls. All 6,666 of them died as martyrs.

So there is no easy answer to this question; and I think that everybody has to decide for themselves.

 

[farouk]

Losses in the European theatre of war in the 40's has been estimated at 29,000,000 and 55,000,000 for WWII total. Losses for the 20th century was 180,000,000.

The Allies delayed getting into the war because of pacifism mostly. After all who wants to go to war? The problem was that the delay allowed Hitler to gain a huge foothold in Europe. Every time he conquered another country he had more manpower and resources to escalate the war of conquest even further. Neville Chamberlain and Roosevelt were the two main characters in delaying resistance against Hitler.

What do you think would have happened if the Allies were organized and had conducted an all out strike on Hitler when he first set foot across his boarder? If they could have stopped him early in his conquest how many would have been lost in this scenario.

Pacifism often causes a delay in bad situations and makes them much much worse in the end.

J:

Neville Chamberlain has gone down in history as the guy who changed the dictionary meaning of 'appeasement' into something bad.

On the other hand, if Great Britain had hit Germany in the mid-30s, chances are that then existing defences would have been — just possibly — insufficient to meet the sheer force of German firepower.

It was also under Chamberlain that the real moves to rearmament occurred; and by 1940 the Spitfires and Hurricanes were providentially available in (just) sufficient numbers to repel the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain.

FD Roosevelt was of course the principal architect of Allied victory in WW2. His achievements in so many ways were of such a colossal scale, that every President since then has been measured against his legacy.

But in the mid-1930s he had to win the radio talk against isolationists, the Coughlin diatribes, etc. In the end FDR won the battle of public opinion, but it didn't happen overnight.

 

[reba]

This is an argument from silence. To say Jesus never told the centurians to leave the army is nothing more than an assumption. Just because the statement isn't recorded doesn't mean it wasn't said.



I didn't ask men to sin for me. I didn't ask men to join the military for me. God is more than capable of protecting me.

Jason is not a sinner because he is in the military. How dare you call the young folks of this land sinners while you hide behind what those before them have done for your rights.
Those men on the beach in Normandy were sinners because they were there..... Those men gave their all and were a big part in opening the doors of hitler's hell.

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Just because the statement isn't recorded doesn't mean it wasn't said.

Just because it is not recorded doesn't mean some others were not told to serve.

To damn in your heart those who showed no greater love is despicable.


God uses people....

 

[Butch5]

Losses in the European theatre of war in the 40's has been estimated at 29,000,000 and 55,000,000 for WWII total. Losses for the 20th century was 180,000,000.

The Allies delayed getting into the war because of pacifism mostly. After all who wants to go to war? The problem was that the delay allowed Hitler to gain a huge foothold in Europe. Every time he conquered another country he had more manpower and resources to escalate the war of conquest even further. Neville Chamberlain and Roosevelt were the two main characters in delaying resistance against Hitler.

What do you think would have happened if the Allies were organized and had conducted an all out strike on Hitler when he first set foot across his boarder? If they could have stopped him early in his conquest how many would have been lost in this scenario.

Pacifism often causes a delay in bad situations and makes them much much worse in the end.

Was God able to stop hitler?

 

[Butch5]

Jason is not a sinner because he is in the military. How dare you call the young folks of this land sinners while you hide behind what those before them have done for your rights.
Those men on the beach in Normandy were sinners because they were there..... Those men gave their all and were a big part in opening the doors of hitler's hell.

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Hold on, I didn't call anyone a sinner.

Just because it is not recorded doesn't mean some others were not told to serve.

To damn in your heart those who showed no greater love is despicable.


God uses people....

You need to hold with this. I didn't put anyone down and don't appreciate this straw man that you've created.

 

[Butch5]

What did the early Church do? Rome was in those days a superpower and the Christians were a minority. The Christians never went to war with Rome, but the Jews did in 66AD and by 70AD they were totally defeated. (1,335 days) The nation of Israel was totally destroyed. The Christians took the non violent route and survived the Roman empire with about 2,100,000 martyrs. They were not militant, law breakers, thieves, and criminals. Their big problem was just one law which was initiated by Domitian - the Emperor of the book of Revelation. He was the first emperor to make emperor worship a requirement of every subject of Rome. You had to sacrifice to the Emperor as a sign of loyalty. The Christians would not say “Caesar is Lord - is God.†And so if they did not they were arrested tried and punished severely.

Were there Christians in the Roman army? Yes, history tells us that in 286AD the entire Theban legion consisting of all Christians were killed by the Roman government because of their refusal to fight against the Christian Gauls. All 6,666 of them died as martyrs.

So there is no easy answer to this question; and I think that everybody has to decide for themselves.

Theban legion consisting of all Christians

Where would we find this information?