Should Churches be non-denominational?

[dadof10]

Excommunication is unknown among the simple churches of faith.

Let me give you a basic outline of excommunication:

We have church discipline where a member is publicly warned after not listening to certain brothers. If the warning goes unheeded and the wilfull disorder continues, then that brother is rejected from the assembly. This is seen as a temporal arrangement until said rejected one comes to his senses and sees his error. Then he is to be re-admitted into the brotherhood. We cannot judge anyone in finality.

Since the brotherhood is actually based on the people themselves, we can keep an eye on the progress of the disciplined one....even having periodic contact either directly or indirectly.

Sound familiar??? If you stopped hating long enough, you might just see that we aren't as far apart as it might seem at first blush. The only difference is we first warn the person privately before going public. That is the last resort.

Ironically, I find that there is not enough discipline in the institutions. You never see public rebukes as per Jesus' instructions.

Which is why there is a process in place that allows for "empirical declarations" in extreme circumstances. These make it public so others will know right from wrong and won't repeat the sin.

 

[Cornelius]

I am standing on what I said. The RCC is run from the top and if you disagree with them, you are out.

Baloney. How many American politicians have been excommunicated for their flouting their anti-life agenda??? As usual, stereotyping with very little knowledge of the facts...

All Christian churches are "run from the top", since Christ is the Head of the Church...

Exactly ! The true church do not have anti-life members. But your denomination keep them inside the flock ! The "called out ones " do not have ONE pro-abortionist among them, they are ALL pro-life and in agreement with God.

 

[Cornelius]

Burning someone at the stake was a punishment utilized by secular courts of the time, not just Catholicism.

Yes, you are still the same.If the world does it, you can do it too. You justify your un-Biblical practices by saying that its OK, because the governments did as well. They sin, so we can too.

Will you also complain about the US government's policy on killing crinimals, or other nations that practice capital punishment???

No, because the Bible says that God gave them the authority of the sword (NOT to the church)

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:
Rom 13:4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.

But of course the RCC took one look at this, and thought (incorrectly) "That is us!, WE ARE THE HIGHER POWER !!! Lets take up the sword and kill" (and they did) This passage is about ruling governments. They are the ministers of God too, there is no ruler that is not placed there by God for his purposes. Christians who think THEY rule, are part of the Nicolaitan error as we all know by now.

Try telling them the Eucharist is idolatry and see what happens.

Your point is lost on me.

I know.

C

 

[dadof10]

You should try tell the Pope you do not want to adhere to major Catholic dogma anymore. They have become PC about many matters, but they will not allow you to stay if you go against what they teach. Why do you think the Reformers left ? Why did they burn people at the stake if you are free to disagree with them.

Try telling them the Eucharist is idolatry and see what happens.

Exactly ! The true church do not have anti-life members. But your denomination keep them inside the flock ! The "called out ones " do not have ONE pro-abortionist among them, they are ALL pro-life and in agreement with God.

No matter what the Church teaches, you will find fault. If She excommunicates members who will not repent, you complain She stifles "freedom". She doesn't excommunicate members in an attempt at changing their hearts, you complain she is too "PC".

You are not interested in understanding anyone else's point of view, only in ripping their Church no matter what angle you have to take to do it. More lost credibility...

 

[Cornelius]

You should try tell the Pope you do not want to adhere to major Catholic dogma anymore. They have become PC about many matters, but they will not allow you to stay if you go against what they teach. Why do you think the Reformers left ? Why did they burn people at the stake if you are free to disagree with them.

Try telling them the Eucharist is idolatry and see what happens.

Exactly ! The true church do not have anti-life members. But your denomination keep them inside the flock ! The "called out ones " do not have ONE pro-abortionist among them, they are ALL pro-life and in agreement with God.

No matter what the Church teaches, you will find fault. If She excommunicates members who will not repent, you complain She stifles "freedom". She doesn't excommunicate members in an attempt at changing their hearts, you complain she is too "PC".

You are not interested in understanding anyone else's point of view, only in ripping their Church no matter what angle you have to take to do it. More lost credibility...

Ah, but you see there IS a difference. PC is not in God's will or way. He wants us to adhere to the Word. In the church we separate from those who want to live in willing sin , like stating that they knowingly and willfully are pro-abortion. We will not allow them in our fellowships because they are in willful sin. The Bible warns us against them.

Your denomination does allow them BECAUSE its "PC" these days. Your denomination in this matter HAS moved away from God's command of "Thou shall not kill" and they allow them to stay and so they compromise on God's Word. Your denomination has a viewpoint about it which is correct, but cannot enforce that view, so its just that: a viewpoint (not a reality that makes a difference )

 

[Cornelius]

ripping their Church .

OK, so I can take it that you see "your Church" as "the people of God" (my people ) so this verse must then apply only to your Church:

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:

If God is not speaking to the Church here as "his people", then who is He speaking to ?

 

[Adullam]

Growth in the Lord causes "my church", or "our church" to become the church of the Lord. It is Christ Himself that rules over His church. It is just a question of whether we are a part of it...or apart from it!

 

[francisdesales]

Excommunication is unknown among the simple churches of faith. We have church discipline where a member is publicly warned after not listening to certain brothers. If the warning goes unheeded and the wilfull disorder continues, then that brother is rejected from the assembly. This is seen as a temporal arrangement until said rejected one comes to his senses and sees his error. Then he is to be re-admitted into the brotherhood. We cannot judge anyone in finality.

Excommunication is unknown, and then you describe the process of excommunication... Sigh...

Of course, a person who is excommunicated here is allowed to repent and return, as well. However, because it is an institutional church, I suppose it is the wrong thing to do, because everything they do is wrong in your eyes, anyway... No one is "judged in finality" on this earth, Mr. Strawman.

There is no red tape involved. There are no empirical declarations...just the concensus of the brotherhood.

Again, you have defined red tape. "No empirical declarations"??? When someone is rejected publically, what would you call that? Sounds like red tape to me. Now, because your community is smaller, the red tape is obviously shorter. However, the effect is the same.

Ironically, I find that there is not enough discipline in the institutions.

Perhaps, but if there IS more discipline in institutions, no doubt, you will be quick to judge that as "too rigid", etc... The Church is trying to live up to the standards created by Christ, and they are often a fine line. On the one hand, Christ demanded openness and love towards others, and on the other hand, a lifestyle that required others be disciplined. It is not always easy to determine when one is "interfering too much" when someone is possibly scandalizing others. And for everyone who has left the Church, no doubt, the Church was "interfering too much". No one will accept blame for their own actions, apparently, it is easier to blame the big bad church...

You never see public rebukes as per Jesus' instructions.

You are definitely ignorant on this matter, aren't you... It is certain you are not aware of what transpires at the Vatican when theologians preach wayward material or priests take strange stands...

System churches follow their own etiquette. All are deemed as sinners and pew lurkers abound!

We all are sinners, whether you think you are perfect or not, so are you.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is a liar, according to Scriptures.

Anyone can attend.

Yes, Christ broke down that wall, but some would like to re-construct a wall where only the perfect are allowed in. Sounds quite Pharisaic, don't you think?

Perhaps you should read some Scriptures on the parables of the Church. Christ has some interesting things to say, such as the parable of the wheat and the tares. Perfectionists don't like to read these Scriptures, because they do not like to perceive the Church as a hospital for the sinners, journeying until it is perfected and presented as the Bride of Christ at the end of time.

It often says at the entrance to such places..."all are welcome." We do not practice this exactly. We discern the disorderly and shameless ones. These are not welcome unless they repent. Repentance is still a heart requirement before the Lord AND the fellowship. Are we just any meeting or the meeting of the church of God? Lurkers cannot abide in a place of intimacy with God and the brethren.

That sounds good on paper, but "lurkers" are not locked out of the Kingdom. In time, they must decide, that is true. However, shutting the door on a "lurker" is not an evangelizing church.

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, you are still the same. If the world does it, you can do it too.
You justify your un-Biblical practices by saying that its OK, because the governments did as well. They sin, so we can too.

Are you trying to say that there is no capital punishment in the Scriptures? Both OT and NT have it. Maybe you should read the Scriptures more carefully.

But of course the RCC took one look at this, and thought (incorrectly) "That is us!, WE ARE THE HIGHER POWER !!! Lets take up the sword and kill" (and they did) This passage is about ruling governments. They are the ministers of God too, there is no ruler that is not placed there by God for his purposes. Christians who think THEY rule, are part of the Nicolaitan error as we all know by now.

You must have a very short memory. We have already seen how you are wrong on the "Nicolaitan" error and how you badly err. But that is par for the course for the self-righteous who think their infallibility extends even to non-religious facts. You have very llittle credibility on historical facts, so don't bother trying to pretend you know the historical situation on such matters.

 

[Cornelius]

Are you trying to say that there is no capital punishment in the Scriptures? Both OT and NT have it. Maybe you should read the Scriptures more carefully.

Yes I am saying that there is no capital punishment that the church is EVER authorized to do in the Bible.

You must have a very short memory. We have already seen how you are wrong on the "Nicolaitan" error and how you badly err.

I do not recall being proven wrong on the Nicolaitan error ( laity ruling over the people of God)

But that is par for the course for the self-righteous who think their infallibility extends even to non-religious facts. You have very llittle credibility on historical facts, so don't bother trying to pretend you know the historical situation on such matters.

I am sorry you are having such a bad day.

 

[dadof10]

Ah, but you see there IS a difference. PC is not in God's will or way. He wants us to adhere to the Word.

Sigh...You know that's not the point...again. Of course God wants us to obey His Word. Straw-dog...again.

The point is, you attack the decisions of the Catholic Church no matter what decision She makes. If She excommunicates an individual, thereby SEPARATING the person from the Church, She is attacked for being too harsh and that harshness is looked upon as the reason for the Reformation. If She lets them stay, She is too "PC" and somehow not the "true church" because She didn't SEPARATE the sinners from Her.

The point is, you have no credibility when speaking about the Catholic Church because She can do no right, EVEN IF THE DECISION SHE MAKES IS THE SAME DECISION YOU MAKE IN YOUR CHURCH.

Your mind is closed, and all you are interested in is criticism, whether warranted or not.

 

[dadof10]

OK, so I can take it that you see "your Church" as "the people of God" (my people ) so this verse must then apply only to your Church:

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:

If God is not speaking to the Church here as "his people", then who is He speaking to ?

The author of Revelation is, in a symbolic way, telling Christians to "come out" of worldly ways, symbolized by "Babylon the Great" (Rome).

...and here comes some oft-debunked Dave Hunt-Lorraine Boettner-Jack Chick "Whore of Babylon=the Catholic Church" tripe. You have nothing substantial to say, so let-er-rip.

 

[francisdesales]

Are you trying to say that there is no capital punishment in the Scriptures? Both OT and NT have it. Maybe you should read the Scriptures more carefully.

Yes I am saying that there is no capital punishment that the church is EVER authorized to do in the Bible.

Silly boy, of course there is... :biglaugh

Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever [he be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth [any] of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Lev 20:2

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them. Lev 20:27

Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard [him] lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. Lev 24:14

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death. Lev 24:16

And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses. Lev 24:23.

How about the NT???

Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? John 8:4-5

the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:31-33

There are more examples, but this is sufficient to show that yet again, you have little knowledge of what the bible says about much of anything... Just sniping without any sights on your rifle...

You must have a very short memory. We have already seen how you are wrong on the "Nicolaitan" error and how you badly err.

I do not recall being proven wrong on the Nicolaitan error ( laity ruling over the people of God)

Of course you don't! Your memory is short, isn't it? Consult my post from Sept 16, 5:42 AM from this very thread, if you want to read it again and pretend you didn't see it...

I am sorry you are having such a bad day.

[/quote][/quote]

Actually, it is quite blessed, thanks...

 

[Adullam]

OK, so I can take it that you see "your Church" as "the people of God" (my people ) so this verse must then apply only to your Church:

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:

If God is not speaking to the Church here as "his people", then who is He speaking to ?

The author of Revelation is, in a symbolic way, telling Christians to "come out" of worldly ways, symbolized by "Babylon the Great" (Rome).

...and here comes some oft-debunked Dave Hunt-Lorraine Boettner-Jack Chick "Whore of Babylon=the Catholic Church" tripe. You have nothing substantial to say, so let-er-rip.

The wordly systems must also be abandoned. We need only one Mediator Jesus Christ.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men – the testimony given in its proper time. (1 Timothy 2:5-6)

Those who set up worldly hierarchies will answer to God.

 

[francisdesales]

The wordly systems must also be abandoned. We need only one Mediator Jesus Christ.

Could you define what a "worldly system" is? Defining it a bit better might help you to realize your error.

There is a difference between a system that teaches and follows "worldly ways" that differ from God's Ways, and a system that includes human people.

Next, we are going to be chastised because we used worldly paper to write the Bible on. This conversation is getting assinine. Can you actually provide any Scriptural support for doing away with "systems"?

 

[Adullam]

Are you trying to say that there is no capital punishment in the Scriptures? Both OT and NT have it. Maybe you should read the Scriptures more carefully.

Yes I am saying that there is no capital punishment that the church is EVER authorized to do in the Bible.

Silly boy, of course there is... :biglaugh

Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever [he be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth [any] of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Lev 20:2

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them. Lev 20:27

Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard [him] lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. Lev 24:14

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death. Lev 24:16

And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses. Lev 24:23.

How about the NT???

Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? John 8:4-5

the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:31-33

There are more examples, but this is sufficient to show that yet again, you have little knowledge of what the bible says about much of anything... Just sniping without any sights on your rifle...

You must have a very short memory. We have already seen how you are wrong on the "Nicolaitan" error and how you badly err.

I do not recall being proven wrong on the Nicolaitan error ( laity ruling over the people of God)

Of course you don't! Your memory is short, isn't it? Consult my post from Sept 16, 5:42 AM from this very thread, if you want to read it again and pretend you didn't see it...

I am sorry you are having such a bad day.

[/quote]

Actually, it is quite blessed, thanks...[/quote]


Have you ever personally taken part in a public stoning? An autodafé? A burning? Are you speaking from experience here?

Christians are not even to slander a brother....nor be angry from themselves. The only known deaths attributed to the church where true disciples met was by Peter who acted by speaking through the power of the Holy Spirit. The case was the extreme discipline wrought through the Holy Spirit on Ananias and Sapphira. Notice here that it is always the Holy Spirit that rules in the church (if it is truly the church). That is, until men with their ecclesiastical lawyers got their greedy fingers mixed in.

The weapons of a true Christian are not carnal, but spiritual, and powerful to bring down the temporal reign of principalities and worldly powers.

 

[Adullam]

The wordly systems must also be abandoned. We need only one Mediator Jesus Christ.

Could you define what a "worldly system" is? Defining it a bit better might help you to realize your error.

There is a difference between a system that teaches and follows "worldly ways" that differ from God's Ways, and a system that includes human people.

Next, we are going to be chastised because we used worldly paper to write the Bible on. This conversation is getting assinine. Can you actually provide any Scriptural support for doing away with "systems"?

A worldly system uses human means to achieve it's goal. The true church operates in submission to the Holy Spirit in the power of the Holy Spirit. Heavenly means are used to accomplish divine objectives. So there is an eternity of difference. :yes

What is highly esteemed among men is abomination to God.

The NT is not an exhaustive list of what not to do...but a testimony of what God is doing. Rather than looking for loopholes as any lawyer would do, the practice of the truth ensures the establishment of the truth.

There are many references to the authority of the church coming from and operating from on high. Anything less than that is carnal and worldly. We are called to walk as Christ...in the same power and walk....the divine walk of the follower of Christ.

Here is an example of a rebuke to the carnally minded....

1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Some may say....we are of Peter. Although this may seem as an oversight by Paul, it is reasonable to say that those who claim to be following Peter and his successors are as carnal as those who claimed the source of other men. To not see this is willfull blindness.

 

[Drew]

The wordly systems must also be abandoned. We need only one Mediator Jesus Christ..

We have been through this over and over and over.

The Biblical case is clear - God has not rejected "worldly systems".

The more interesting question, I suggest, is why you do not accept what the Scriptures say.

This sounds directed at you, but, at its heart, my question is why do so many Christians get this backwards and buy into an entirely false dualism which ignores the clear teaching that God is redeeming the world's systems, not rejecting them.

We have crystal-clear, unambiguous statements to this effect all over the place, including here in Romans 13:

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For (C)there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

I am really curious to know why you reject this text. Because reject it you do whenever you make statements about how God has "rejected the temporal order" or that "worldly systems must be abandoned."

Do you not believe in the authority of the book of Romans?

 

[Adullam]

The wordly systems must also be abandoned. We need only one Mediator Jesus Christ..

We have been through this over and over and over.

The Biblical case is clear - God has not rejected "worldly systems".

The more interesting question, I suggest, is why you do not accept what the Scriptures say.

This sounds directed at you, but, at its heart, my question is why do so many Christians get this backwards and buy into an entirely false dualism which ignores the clear teaching that God is redeeming the world's systems, not rejecting them.

We have crystal-clear, unambiguous statements to this effect all over the place, including here in Romans 13:

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For (C)there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

I am really curious to know why you reject this text. Because reject it you do whenever you make statements about how God has "rejected the temporal order" or that "worldly systems must be abandoned."

Do you not believe in the authority of the book of Romans?

You do not seem to understand the difference between human government and the church. The verse you cited is concerning temporal government. We are not to break the law since we are no longer under it's power. We are to be at peace with all men whenever possible giving proper respect where appropriate. We are not to needlessly provoke the existing authorities. Our comportment is to be blameless.

The church is not to be a worldly organization. We're not building a church for Jesus. At least we better not be. Jesus Christ has His own church that He runs in divine power. Better to join His church! :yes

Are you playing devil's advocate here or do you really not understand these things?

 

[Drew]

You do not seem to understand the difference between human government and the church. The verse you cited is concerning temporal government. We are not to break the law since we are no longer under it's power. We are to be at peace with all men whenever possible giving proper respect where appropriate. We are not to needlessly provoke the existing authorities. Our comportment is to be blameless.

I believe that you have stated elsewhere that God has "rejected the temporal order". Well, Paul does not agree with that. If God truly has rejected the temporal order, why is He so busy establishing human governments?

I am fully aware of the church - government distinction. It is you who are saying that God has rejected human instutions. All I am doing is producing words from Paul that show otherwise.